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I am beginning to believe Obama has something on Judge Kennedy to blackmail him. It seems the court decides how they are going to vote and then the figure out a way to make that decision.
Why didn’t the bakery in Oregon declare bankruptcy and reopen under a new corporate name?
Rush Limbaugh says the objection is to get rid of freedom of religion. What will happen when these evil people demand a Rabbi to overseer their marriage? Will the court recognize freedom of religion or equal protection? The way this rouge court is going I think it will override freedom of religion. This is the most important thing to us all the other comments or academic. We must start a push for a constitution amendment to protect freedom of religion and while we are out it permit the government to pay for yeshivas.
DaMoshe: People who celebrated this decision should not be your friends.
DY
Does the Agudah ever invite people who eat treif or are Mechalel Shabbos to speak to them covention? I am sure they have
I read the AMI article and it talked about supporting politians.
There is a differnce between supporting a politians and inviting someone to be a speaker or Honoree at your event.
Are they evil or mistaken?
Rush Lumbaugh is wrong. This was a constitutional issue and nothing more,
bikhuna: “We must start a push for a constitution amendment to protect freedom of religion”
It’s called the 1st amendment
ZD, I’m sure they do.
The article did mention speakers and honorees as well. I quoted R’ Chaim Dovid Zwiebel in an earlier post.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/supreme-decision
You cant claim to have moral superiority now, when you have had issues in the past
DM: Well said.
Maybe I’m late to comment on this, but I think how the government will treat polyandry is of greater interest here than polygamy. And let’s not kid ourselves, there will be challenges on everything. Welcome to a new, crazier and obviously more perverted world.
I don’t follow you.
Mammele, this has happened before.
Why don’t we protest outside Red Lobster and all restaurants that serve shellfish? It is an abomination as well (Vayikra 11:9).
All I’m saying is that now that same gender is okay — as long as they are consenting — earlier in this thread there were comments about where this can lead to, mostly about whether polygamy will now be allowed, and siblings, cousins etc. marrying legally throughout the U.S.
The concept of polyandry wasn’t addressed, and among all the crazies out there and women wanting to feel empowered I’m sure it will come up and be practiced. — another nail in the coffin of this society.
I am not flying rainbow flags, but I note that it seems that most Orthodox folks who are objecting to this decision voted for a polytheist in the last Presidential election.
chuck: Obama(*), like virtually all Trinity believing Christians, are polytheists.
(*Taking your word he isn’t a closet Muslim.)
goofus: A gentile is permitted to eat shellfish unlike the other abomination. And the penalty for those who are not permitted to eat shellfish isn’t being stoned to death as it is for the abomination in the news.
Charlie,
The ones that did not vote for him because he was a polytheist, nor were the reasons they voted for based on that.
Contrast that to why you and the other radicals voted for Mr Obama. You are really the one who should be bowing your head in shame.
Mammele, it was ZD whose post I don’t get the point of.
Nor do I see what point Charlie is trying to make.
DY – “You (and others) make it seem like a clear cut issue, and it’s far from that, with much nuance”
The fact is supporting these politicians will affect us, no matter how you & other Agudists are in Denial! I posted this reason/theory above.
These conversations seem so dry.
I think we should be crying at the world our children will grow up in.
The immorality of intimacy outside of marriage (probably we came into a world that already accepted this) is also something to cry about. Hashem doesn’t want His creations, the non Jews living like this! We should be crying for that too.
Health, please do not misrepresent my position. I didn’t say it’s l’chatchilah. I said there are other factors that may, under certain circumstances, outweigh that. This is what R’ Moshe Feinstein and others zt”l held, and you have no right to have taynas on the Agudah for following this mehalech.
Kollel wife,I’m completely with you. I personally wanted to tear kriya in mourning when I heard the news.
I called the person whom I like to ask for advice, and she told me to remember that this is not us.
From Avraham, who was me’eiver from the rest of the world, we Jews have always been separate from the nations of the world, and this is just a reminder that our moral values are not the same.
We have to just continue doing our shlichut in this world, doing what Hashem wants us to do in whatever situation He puts us in.
Joseph, it should be further clarified that gentile women in the news.are not over on anything. However, it is not a marriage. A gentile woman who cheats on her friend is not over on anything.
As for polytheism, firstly there is a well-known machloket as to whether or not avoda zara b’shituf is prohibited to gentiles and secondly, not all Xtians believe in the Trinity. Unitarians, for example, do not and only consider that man to have been a great spiritual leader whose teachings are authoritative and perhaps a prophet.
What about ever min hachai?
RY23: It’s against the law as animal cruelty.
Avi: AFAIK, all the seforim that that the position that shituf isn’t avoda zora were seforim that needed to get past Church censors in Europe.
As far as non-Trinity Christians, they are a tiny fraction of Christianity.
Joseph clarified the shamefulness of the OU’s statement on this abomination. It’s sad that some still can’t see this even after Joseph and others made this point but, I guess, this is an expected outcome of proudly “synthesizing” Torah and, liHavdil, “modernity”.
There are religious gentiles who blame “the Jews” for this legislation. This is where Agudah deserves credit for their stand, clarifying how they filed a brief against this legislation and that Jews do NOT support this legislation. And this is where the OU could have done us all a favor had they taken a Torah position on the matter rather than one more in keeping with haskala.
The depravity of this ruling is more profound than “just” the legislating of the abominable as normal. Think of the children “of” these unions. This legislation deems it perfectly normal for a child’s only parents to be of the same gender.
For example, if a same-gender “couple” wishes to take in a foster child, they now have the same rights and priority as a heterosexual couple. Whereas before this legislation, since the only definition of marriage was between a man and woman, and a child is best off in a home with a stable marriage, then it would be logical to prefer a couple over a same-gender “couple” or some other abomination/messed-up circumstance. But with this legislation, neither “couple” is legally better than the other and the child is now told that his two surrogate parents are the two males (or two females) of that “couple”. Period.
So the ramifications of this legislation reach far beyond “two people’s right to choose their own life”. It actually redefines (more accurately, destroys) morality and normality.
Also, by this “logic”, it also makes any consenting relationship (meaning, between two people who are of age of consent) including siblings, parent/child, etc. to be perfectly fine.
Sickening and scary.
(Since marriage is clearly not legally, anymore, a matter of being able to have children, etc. one wonders what the courts would do if two adult bachelor siblings – of any gender – would seek to marry for tax or other legal purposes.)
Joseph: I think, according to the famous Yam Shel Shlomo, that what you just said is Kefirah. I cannot believe that you would attempt to change a Posek or Rishon’s words by saying they didn’t really mean what they said because of external pressure.
Sam: It is well known certain things were put in to many seforim at the behest of the censors. This has long been accepted in the Torah community. One of the more famous instances is in the Aruch Hashulchan where he praised the benevolent Czar of Russia as a great friend and protector of the Jews and then rules that mesira doesn’t apply when it comes to such a friend of the Jews as the Czar.
And with issue at hand, as shituf directly relates to Christianity the seforim could not freely describe Christianity as idol worship and hope the Church censors would allow its publication.
From Avraham, who was me’eiver from the rest of the world, we Jews have always been separate from the nations of the world, and this is just a reminder that our moral values are not the same.
To say there arent jews like this is just a lie, There are even frum or formerly frum jews like this. Some of the people who go OTD, go OTD for this reason
Avi K.,
“it should be further clarified that gentile women in the news are not over on anything.”
1) You have pretty big shoulders to say that they are not being over on ANYTHING.
2) Even if that were the case, What about 2 Men and what about Jewish women. Everyone here knows that the reform, conservative and even the OO were big promoters of this (I have seen the comments of the honchos of the OO movement, this is not a matter of debate).
3) The tragedy of the Decision was not about anyone being over, the same people who are now going to be over on mishkav zachor were doing so before the Court’s decision The issue is that the with this decision the millennial old definition of marriage and the family unit has been changed. That is huge, regardless if it is two gentile women or unfortunately two Jewish men.
4) This redefinition of what is marriage, what is a family unit and what is the societal norm has a profound negative impact on the morals of society.
Before long, and I am sure it is already on the agenda, any loopholes to the law that exist for religion will be done away with and this “right” will be used to harm people and groups that practice traditional religion.
The US was founded, and the constitution was written, to protect people’s right to practice their religion. These agitators have come along and created a new right which they now use to replace what was a basic right guaranteed by the constitution.
Separation of Church and state does not mean one cannot practice religion, it means that he government cannot interfere in how someone practices religion. It is meant as a protection of that right of individuals. I guarantee that this new law will be used to usurp the rights of people practicing religion and will result in many breaches in the real separation of church and state.
The mark of a Jew is that we control our desires and channel them into serving Hashem according to the Torah and our Mesorah.
For example, a Jew who has homosexual desires can be a Rabbi in a community too small to support a Rabbi with a family. Or he can learn Torah to the exclusion of anything else in his life. And every time he doesn’t do what he wants to do, he makes a kiddush Hashem and brings kedusha into the world.
Joseph: It’s a Machlokes about that Aruch HaShulchan. And to say such things about a Rishon is beyond disturbing. Who needs a Torah? Any Shittos you don’t like were only put there to mollify the censors.
ZD,
“To say there arent jews like this is just a lie, There are even frum or formerly frum jews like this. Some of the people who go OTD, go OTD for this reason”
T613T never said, nor implied that there are not Jews like that. Nothing he or she said is a lie at all.
In fact, that people go of the derech because they want to indulge these ta’avos is in and of itself proof that the Jewish Moral code rejects this and that we have to separate ourselves from accepting such behaviors as the norm and as moral.
Your rant is completely misdirected.
Perhaps you like to feel your self a man of the world and feel that this not moral failing of the US, therefore you had to make your comment, but anyone with a bit of decency (as defined by the Torah) and sense understands clearly what T613T was saying.
If you think the goyim were a bunch of chaste tsadikim until recently, you are quite mistaken. It’s not like this is the first time they gone “off the derekh” (for a Ben Noach) – they’ve been off for a long time. Even when they had moral laws, they tended to ignore them.
Our laws prohibit us from dealing with their courts, and the recent developments might help be creating broader support for allowing people to sign pre-maritial contracts (a kesubah is, BTW, a pre-maritial contact) agreeing to binding arbitration. Now, a considerable part of the country will be annoyed with the government’s domestic relations laws, and will be seeking alternatives.
We might be happier moving away from our hopelessly lost secular cousins. The growth of Yiddishkeit in “red” states is to be encouraged.
Sam: Rishon? Which Rishon says shituf isn’t avoda zora? AFAIK that citation comes from Achronim.
Torah613: A Jew with homosexual desires can marry a woman and have a family.
Joseph,
That is awful. That is so, so, so awful! How can you say that a homosexual man marry a woman if he is not attracted to her in any way, shape, or form? That is wrong and horrific on so many levels.
Letakein, actually I’m aware of one frum person who has made that choice (with understanding of their wife). So I guess it’s not impossible. But I was trying to make a different point.
letakein, it has happened a few times, you just do not hear about those things. Especially in the Goyishe world from 50 years back, when men would be embarassed to express the true feelings. Yes, they married and had families. Now that they are out of the closet, it is not as common. Unfortunately now,they marry each other and use surrogates if they want children. There is no shame anymore.
T613,
What woman would agree to marry a man despite the fact that he is not attracted to her? That is so unhealthy!
My point is that it is not impossible for that to happen, but it is wrong. It is unfair to the partner.
I also know a very fine and bright baal tshuva.
Lived a life fulfilling this and other taivas openly.
Hashem fanned the flame of his Neshama haEmes.
Married a wonderful frum woman. Had many children. Learned many years in Eretz Yisroel where they now live.
there will probably now be a push for the same immorality in Eretz Hakodesh-we need to be ready to stop it!!!
My point was that polytheism is clearly prohibited for non-Jews and yet about half the Orthodox Jews voted for a leader in a polytheistic religious movement. (The Republican Jewish Coalition exit poll said that Obama beat Romney among Orthodox Jews by 4%, which is about his margin among all non-Jews nationwide. As others have pointed out, there are reliable sources that say that ordinary Trinitarian Christianity is mutar.) I am aware of nobody pointing out any problems with this, and yet large number of frum Jews today are objecting to a different prohibition being waived by the government. It looks like we are picking and choosing halachah based on our personal feelings.
CharlieHall: All Christians are polytheists except for the “unitarians” who insist they aren’t really Christians. “Trinity” means “three”. And in any event who cares what the goyim believe? What matters is what they do and how they act, and in particular, how they act towards us. And it appears the Democrats are gearing up to demonize all religious groups that don’t accept gay marriage and that homosexuality is normal – which is a very good reason to be a Republican and consider relocating to “red” states.
Charlie,
1) We’re not given that choice. The alternative is not voting.
2) As you point out, it’s not a definite issur for them; mishkav zochor is
3) They’re not pushing polytheism as a value as they are same gender marriage.
4) Chazal don’t speak about the ill effects of polytheism as they do legitimizing same gender marriage.
LG, she made that choice willingly.
Joseph, Rabbenu Tam (Bechorot 2b d”h shema itchayev) and the Meiri (Avodah Zarah 2b and 6b), say that gentiles are not prohibited in avoda zara b’shituf as does the Rema (Orach Chayim 156:1).
Nishtdayngesheft,
1. Please cite the source that says that two gentile women are over. Rambam (hilchot Melachim 9:5) only says mishkav zachor.
2-4. I agree 100%.
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