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Is it it right to do certain things like wearing a hat or dressing/acting a specific way for shidduchim if its not really authentic to what you really are or believe in? Such as wearing a hat because otherwise you might not get looked at by a certain crowd? As well as if you are comingfrom a yeshiva backround and moved a drop left after your yeshiva days is it better not to advertise your recent change in your hanhaga? Also if you have presented your self as moved a drop left for short while already would it seem weird to others if you go back to looking more like you went to yeshiva for a few years? What I mean by moved a drop left is that I no longer wear a black hat and movies and music are not an issue/ I wear a smaller kippa etc but still have solid haskofos. So I would like to know if it is is better not to advertise this recent change?
It’s an interesting question. From my experience,even yeshivish boys will come to the house of a girl and then take it off in the car. So I don’t think wearing the hat determines a hashkafa. The better question is whether you would be honest with the girl, or try to hide your changes. Sadly, many a people find out after they’re married that their spouse was not honest on certain topics or in certain behaviors. Best thing is to be yourself, and learn to live with the reactions.
what kind of world do we live in, where someone can essentially ask, is it ok for me to fool people so i can get a shidduch. are people in shidduchim so desperate?
I really don’t get how you can say that music and movies aren’t an issue yet claim solid hashkafos.
Anyhow, if she’s okay with music and movies, I don’t think a hat should be an issue one way or another.
“From my experience,even yeshivish boys will come to the house of a girl and then take it off in the car”
how do they take the girls house off in the car???
@theaccountant, I feel for you.
I definitely get the feeling your question is not actually about the hat and rather about another issue, the thing is every issue has a different answer.
Personally I don’t think the hat makes any difference, and if it is a deal breaker I’m sure you would where it whilst hanging by your in laws.
Etc.
Daas Yachid: We all need to be accepting of other yidden and when he tells me has strong hashkafos despite music and ovies, I will believe him. Maybe it’s not the same hashkafos as you would have, but we shouldn’t look down on others or question them. The music and movies are minor issues compared with what’s really important.
I do believe him when he says they’re not an issue to him, but by definition, that means his hashkafos are off.
Realizing that doing aveiros is an issue is very important.
The Accountant: You should dress and act to attract the type of women whom you want to marry. If you want to marry a girl with yeshivish hashkafos then you should act and dress like someone with yeshivish hashkafos. If you want to marry someone with totally different hashkafos, you should dress to attract that other type of girl.
Obviously, regardless how you dress/act you should be straight up with both the girl and the shadchan of which direction you want to be heading.
At least wear a hat for bentching, davening, etc. in accordance with halacha as stated in the Mishna Brura.
I don’t know if you noticed, but a lot of people don’t wear hats for bentching, davening, etc. So what does that make them? Sinners?
Flatbusher, while I am not disagreeing with you, I would like to make something clear. There is a lot of talk about Achdus lately. Certainly it is a worthy goal. However, acceptance of every Yid as a brother means accepting the person who holds within him a Yiddishe Neshama, a chelek — mi’Maal. This does not include acceptance or condoning of any behaviors or actions that are not in keeping with Taryag Mitzvos, or any beliefs that contain even a mashehu of kefira R”L. We have to love the person. We don’t get to decide that we now love whatever he’s thinking or doing. This mistaken notion of achdus has the potential to lead us down some very dangerous paths.
Apologies to Accountant for having digressed from your topic! As far as advertising who you are on a date- I can understand your wish to present yourself in a favorable light. All advertisements attempt that with the product they’re selling. But the advertisers also know that they’re doomed to failure, and sometimes even a lawsuit, if they present their product falsely. Respect the person you’re dating and yourself by honestly presenting what kind of a person you truly are, and what kind of a home you hope to build together.
flatbusher, my comment above was not commenting specifically on hats, which I notice you’re now busy with. In my humble opinion (humble- because I don’t generally wear a hat and have never owned a Borsalino, making me not the best candidate to discuss this earth-shattering topic) there’s way too much emphasis around here on hats.
Maybe that’s just because this is theyeshivaworld…
Golfer: I was commenting on Lior’s post.
Not sure what you’re referring to about not in line with Taryag mitzvos–are you talking about movies? If so,please cite which of the Taryag mitzvos specifically makes them assur. I don’t go to movies, but I am not part of the “everything is assur” crowd.
please cite which of the Taryag mitzvos specifically makes them assur
??? ?????
At least wear a hat for bentching, davening, etc. in accordance with halacha as stated in the Mishna Brura.
As I’ve said many times before, that is only if you are Makpid to only walk in the street with a hat & jacket. Ayin Shom.
I don’t have a problem seeing movies since it isn’t something that I feel breaks my connection with the one above.
You wouldn’t say that about other issurim, so why do you say it about this?
Gavra: source?
DY: Offen the Mishna Berurah himself where he discusses hats, he says “K’Derech Sheholchin B’rechov” MB 91:12. I’ve posted it before:
A bigger issue are those who would remove their Shlumpy hat when talking to someone Chashuv (imagine Gov. Deal) due to it’s misshapen form and dust. Certainly not Omed Lifnei HaMelech.
P.S. Lcheorah, it is much more halachic to wear a tie during davening than a hat for the same reason.
According to your interpretation, it should have said “k’derech sheholech birchov”.
DY – I apologize. The exact language is “K’derech Sheholech B’rechov”.
In context, though, he seems to be contrasting it to a yarmulka, not to someone who doesn’t wear a hat in the street.
DY – No, he contrasts it to a hat in which one would not meet a Chashuv person, such as an undercap (not worn on the street) or a sleeping hat, not a Yarmulka or Kippah which one wears going about their everyday lives.
P.S. I’m really curious about the MO-Darchei question, and am eagerly waiting to see what you say.
That’s a different heter (see Tzitz Eliezer and Halichos Shlomo).
I have a cousin who sends to Darchei. I would call him balabatish. No TV or movies, velvet yarmulka, hat on Shabbos, wife completely tznius, etc. but not yeshivish. I’ll bl”n ask him his take.
Midvar sheker tirchak is also one of the taryag mitzvos.
DY – IMHO (and it reads that way), the MB says it as well.
Looking forward to the Darchei response.
Midvar sheker tirchak is also one of the taryag mitzvos.
Ask your Rav if it applies here.
I might see him at a simcha next week, but come to think of it, I have another cousin who sends as well, and this one is actually quite yeshivish (in fact his oldest is in a mesivta which would be considered yeshivish by any standard) so I can’t imagine it’s MO.
I might see him at a simcha next week, but come to think of it, I have another cousin who sends as well, and this one is actually quite yeshivish (in fact his oldest is in a mesivta which would be considered yeshivish by any standard) so I can’t imagine it’s MO.
So you have two cousins that send there, one MO/Baal HaBatish and the other Yeshivish. So which one is the place? Or do they just not fit into a pigeonhole?
one MO/Baal HaBatish
You must know him (I didn’t describe him that way), so ask him yourself! 🙂
Really, though, how are you defining MO?
Really, though, how are you defining MO?
Now THAT is a good question (and something that I’ve been trying to tease out of you, as you’ve been ignoring it (on purpose)).
Personally, I would define it as following the Derech of Rav Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik. That would then include those such as Rabbis Hershel Shachter , Meyer AMUSH and Moshe Twersky ZTL, Moshe Meiselman, and those at Lander College (Rabbis Lander and Saks, etc.) as well as Young Israel Rabbi types. It would not include those who have excluded themselves, such as Open Orthodoxy. This would not include Rabbi Bender, who I believe went to a Brooklyn Yeshiva (Chaim Berlin? Torah V’daas?, not certain).
Since this is a non-standard definition, I respectfully request what you think.
Accountant: I think you need to ask yourself some questions.
First of all, why do you want to project an image of someone you are not? (It sounds like you DO have an issue with certain things you are doing now because you don’t want to attract the kind of girl that’ll be happy with you the way you are now.)
How do you want your future home to look?
It’s commendable that your relationship with Hashem is important to you. But as believing Jews, we know that it is NOT us that get to decide what brings us closer or not. We have halachah that we need to follow. So watching movies should be something you ask a shailah about.
(I’m sorry you had a bad experience with the yeshivish crowd. But that does not mean that your choices are right just by virtue of being different than their’s.)
The wife you marry will impact the way your home is – that goes without saying. Are you focused on growing upwards – are you committed to following da’as Torah? MO style or the style you grew up with?
These are all questions you need to answer.
This is a major decision that will impact your entire ruchniyusdig future I suggest you try to find your center and remember what’s really important in life.
Wishing you loads of hatzlachah!
Well, my cousin (even the one you called MO) did not have any of them as his rebbe.
From a Mishpacha Magazine online teaser article:
Rabbi Yaakov Bender
It was 12:50 when Yaakov arrived at his house. His whole family was waiting for him to leave to the levayah, which was at 1:00 in Torah Vodaath, where his father, Rav Dovid Bender, had been the menahel.
During that period of intense grieving, Yaakov found solace in writing his memories of his father. The 60-odd pages that he wrote during that time, 47 years ago, became the basis of the biography later written about his parents by Mrs. Devora Gliksman (ArtScroll/Mesorah).
I would call him balabatish. No TV or movies, velvet yarmulka, hat on Shabbos, wife completely tznius, etc. but not yeshivish.
What in this description makes him not yeshivish? He doesn’t wear a hat during the week?
Yeah, and he learns daf yomi.
What else defines the line separating the yeshivish from the balabatish?
Kiddush clubs.
DY: Mir Brooklyn. Thanks for the info.
You still haven’t defined MO. Also, would you then describe Darchei as “Baal Habatish”?
I can’t think of a clear defining line, other than perhaps Zionism.
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