Suicide In Light of Chana (of seven sons fame)

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  • #593413
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Chana is one of the figures associated with Channukah. I’m sure just about all of you know the story, but for the few that might not, I’ll summarize.

    A woman named Chana was brought before the local Greek administrator of Eretz Yisroel. Her oldest son was told to bow down to the local idol. His refusal earned him his execution. The second son likewise refused and was also executed. Each son in turn was given the chance to worship idolatry, refused and died.

    After the last son died, Chana, grief-stricken went up to the roof of a building and told HKBH* that whereas Avraham was willing to sacrifice only one son, she gave seven. She then threw herself off the roof of the building, killing herself.

    It’s possible to postulate that seeing her sons executed drove her mad. I can’t imagine that I’d be in any proper frame of mind if, God forbid, the same thing happened to me. In fact, I’d be surprised if any person could think completely rationally after experiencing what she experienced.

    That aside, however, what if she was rational? There’s no explicit passage that indicates that she did, in fact, lose her mind. What if she did know what she was doing? There is (to my knowledge) no indication anywhere that Chana is criticized for her act of suicide. On the contrary, she is often held up as an example to emulate (in her raising her children with the proper values — not in her suicide, of course).

    Assuming her actions to be rational(and I grant that it’s only for the sake of argument), how can she be held up as a positive role model when suicides are condemned so harshly?

    The Wolf

    * In some versions, she told her youngest son before his execution to relay this to Avraham when he got to heaven.

    EDITED

    #716086
    blinky
    Participant

    Im not sure i undersand you, but if she was rational even more so her greatness- she knew what she was doing, and she would rather die al kiddush hashem then give in.

    #716087

    you have to ask someone who knows

    suicide is permitted under a number of circumstances

    Shaul ha Melech committed suicide, he was one of the greatest Tzadikkim and Talmidei Chochomim of all time.

    #716088
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Blinky,

    I’m not certain that she herself was being coerced into idolatry like her children. After all, if that were the case, would she not have been given the same choice right after her last son?

    And yet, even if she were — wouldn’t it have been better to allow herself to be killed passively rather than commit suicide, given the harshness with which suicides are considered?

    The Wolf

    #716089
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Shaul ha Melech committed suicide,

    I’m not quite sure the two cases are comparable.

    In Shaul’s case, he could probably have expected quite a bit of torture if he fell into the enemies hands.

    There’s no evidence from the story that Chana’s children were tortured at all — and, as I mentioned earlier, it’s not even certain that she was being asked to give up her life at all.

    The Wolf

    #716090

    who said they are comparable

    i am pointing out that there are a number of grounds for permitting suicide

    the Halachos are complex and you obviously havent studied the episode of Chana in great depth

    why are you speculating in such an empty, useless and dangerous manner?

    if you want to discuss the Halachos of suicide here, i think thats foolish but at least dont bring the great Jewess Chana into your speculations

    #716091
    Sacrilege
    Member

    What was the point of this exercise again?

    #716092
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Mod,

    I think you may have misunderstood the point of the thread – or it’s possible that I simply did not articulate it well.

    I’m not looking to put down Chana. On the contrary, I am conceding that she is an exemplary role model.

    What I’m trying to get at is this: given that she is an exemplary role model, and given that she committed suicide, why is suicide treated so harshly.

    That’s the goal here. If I gave the impression that I was defaming Chana, my apologies.

    The Wolf

    #716093
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You’re not even going to let me explain the point of the thread??? I’m not even allowed to apologize for not articulting it well???

    So, you’re going to leave up your accusation that I was defaming Chana without even allowing me a chance to respond?

    #716094

    i did not think you were defaming Chana

    it is just very clear that you have not studied that episode in any more than the briefest (incorrect, at that) storyline.

    you should not be drawing conclusions and speculations from it.

    #716095
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I was not drawing conclusions… I was starting a discussion and asking questions.

    Nowhere did I conclude that suicide should be permitted based on Chana or anything else of the sort.

    The Wolf

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