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As for sources in the Gemara, as I said, you won’t get open ones because it was a Sod. However, there are certain references that can be taken to be alluding to, or based on, Gilgul. We have the Gemara in Bava Kamma that describes what happens to one who doesn’t bow by Modim. After seven years he turns to one animal, then another and another. Unless you want to totally conceptualize this Gemara and make Adobe lesson out of it, it is hard to think it means that his body will transform. Therefore, many learn that it is referring to him becoming Megulgal.
Then we have these statements of this one being that one, for example, Bilaam being Lavan. In this case, the ibn Ezra points out how hard it is to accept that Lavan lived that long. Therefore, the ibn Ezra says it is a Sod. The Maharal likewise explains, in his own terminology, that this is what Chazal mean when they say Memuchan is Haman. This is also the only way to reconcile the many conflicting statements about Eliyahu Hanavi. Is he a Kohen? Pinchas? From Gad, as he testified in Tanna Dibei Eliyahu? From the children of Rachel?
So your response to
Does that make Paroh right? Obviously not. It merely means that in the big picture, nothing escapes Hashem’s will.
is
Now we can say according to this that whenever a Jewish boy dies its because look he would have sinned if he stayed alive. People who suffered along such as family members must also have sinned and deserve this punishment.
Are you actually reading the responses?
And to your first point (in that post), yes, that’s exactly my point. We don’t know the whole picture.
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There is no doubt more than one way to chew a Gemara, especially Agaddata, and even more so exotic Agaddata. That it why I didn’t call it proof. I said, “There are certain references that can be taken to be alluding to, or based on, Gilgul.” And sorry, I don’t recall where or who says Gilgul on that Gemara.
The Maharsha you mentioned and pasted (thanks for doing so, btw) does not add or take away from this conversation. He just says why it is a fitting punishment. I am discussing the technical details of the punishment. Will his spine just turn into a snake or is this alluding to a non-physical transformation?
Just had to weigh in on this.
In my teens I was obsessed with these concepts, now I look back and there are two important lessons I learned.
1. We cannot understand a lot of things that happen in this world, even if we are given a glimmer of understanding here and there, the big picture is so big. We need to trust Hashem that everything He does is for the best.
2. Do what’s right. Hashem gave us clear instructions, we don’t need guessing games. Follow halachah, do what’s right and leave the rest up to Hashem. I believe judging others in the way newbee suggested is reprehensible. (Sorry, newbee.)
It’s against the way we are taught to think: :”al tadin…” etc.
The only way to treat a person as mentioned above is with compassion. Showcasing him as a lesson to learn is against halacha. (Think embarrassing someone, onaas devarim …)
Oh, and I second Haleivi on what he said about this person in this gilgul being a new person. If he did not do any aveiros in this lifetime, he should be viewed as a tzaddik. I think it’s the Ben Ish Chai that says a gilgul means a spark of a previous neshama (a certain aspect of the soul came down again) but the first person and the second are each still their own unique individual.
Glad to hear. I’m sorry for the wrong assumption.
When I read the post about a 28 yr old inviting a cripple to show his guests not to speak l”h… I assumed that’s what you thought was okay. Or when you wrote that we shouldn’t feel bad for someone suffering because he is a criminal and “deserves it”….
Anyway very happy to hear I misinterpreted.
You probably said it in your last Gilgul.
The Pele Yoetz quotes the Zohar that a kid that is born via yibum is a gilgul of the dead brother. He therefore says that people who knew the dead brother should specifically tell the kid the faults of the dead brother so that the kid can rectify them.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14115&st=&pgnum=59
(Top of the page)
However, the Tzlach in Berachos 10a writes:
??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????
Seemingly, then, you could come back as a gilgul even if you never did anything wrong in your past life.
If one reads Emunos vedeios (Rav Saadia Gaon) he mentions 4 refutations concerning gilgulim. He acknowledges that some Jews belive in it but he felt it wasnt logical and it didn’t fit with pessukim. He also mentions the suffering of the young and refers back to an earlier treatise in his sefer to refute gilgulim. However,many great Rabannim hold of such an idea and both sides should not be dismissed,elu velu…
I think you’d be hard pressed to find mainstream, Mesora conscious Rabbanim that would be against it. It is already mentioned by almost anyone we look up to, such as the Arizal, Beis Yosef, Baal Shem Tov, Gra, Ramchal, the Sefer Hazohar among many others.
As I mentioned above, Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon is not famous for having learned Kabbalah, and therefore is irrelevant to something whose soul(?) origin is Kabbalah. And this, of course, is besides my earlier comment about it not really being a Stira.
Being that I expressed already — and it got a second opinion as well — that you aren’t someone else although you might have an inherited soul, we can easily have a look at Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon and see that what bothered him was the view that you aren’t a new and unique individual. That is the Nefesh. To that we all agree, it is new. And that is what the Magid of the Beis Yosef taught him.
Well besides for R’ Saadia there’s the Rashash in Bava Metzia 107a, though he just says that the gemara is a kashya on it, not that he doesn’t hold of it. I’ve quoted previously that R’ Dovid Sinzheim wrote:
????”? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??”?
The Sefer Haikkarim 4:29 writes against it but concludes that only Hashem knows:
????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????, ??? ????? ??????? ?”? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???’ ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????
I believe R’ Hasdai Crescas also wrote against it, though I don’t have the exact reference offhand.
Rav Chisdai is the one who, after writing that it doesn’t make sense, writes that he heard that Al Pi Kabbalah it is true and if so ?? ???? ????.
That would be the reaction of anyone who is not versed in Kabbalah but found out a certain aspect of it, which is exactly why I said that quoting those from beforehand is irrelevant, since we already know it is not in Nigleh.
And by the way, my statement about how Rav Saadya Gaon’s refutation is not a Stira to Gilgul, would also answer the Ikkrim’s Kasha.
Where is the actual ??”? ?????
Where is the actual ??”? ?????
I have no idea. It might not exist. All I know is that R’ Dovid Sinzheim in Sheva Chakiros claims that the Rosh said this. As far as I know it is unsubstantiated.
Here is the actual reference from Ohr Hashem:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22063&st=&pgnum=418&hilite=
I would say that ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? is somewhat more positive than ???? ????.
As we were saying..
I still don’t have my answers. not sure why the thread was closed. I know it was beginning to sound funny but they were real questions that I had .
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