Stupid Question, but would Appreciate any Smart Answers.

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  • #2311654
    toonaphish
    Participant

    Assuming like the Rambam (brought numerous times on this site), that a Jewish person killed by Hamas for being a Jew, goes straight to the highest levels of Olam Haba; then why do we pray & fight for not-frum hostages to be released, so they can go back to dancing at parties which will most certainly NOT get them to the highest levels of Olam Haba?
    I know it sounds disgusting, but if we honestly believe in Olam Haba, why do we want to deprive them of that? As tinokos shenishbi’u, without being raised with any concept of yiddishkeit, it’s unlikely that they’ll jump into Torah & mitzvos upon release, and don’t we anyways have a concept of אין ספק מוציא מידי ודאי?

    #2311679
    Ysiegel
    Participant

    Because it’s not up to anyone else to decide on Inyanei Shamayim.
    Because the fact that a person may receive Olam Haba for dying al kidush Hashem does not mean you need to be the one to do it – that’s up to Hashgacha Pratit. Our job is to SAVE another Jew’s life when in danger, and CERTAINLY to prevent their suffering. Allowing the contrary to occur is tantamount to murdering them ch”v.

    Should I go on a rampage chalila telling non religious Jews to keep Shabbos or else I’ll kill them, and actually do so (again, ch”v), in order to get them their olam haba?

    It’s very similar to what you’re describing…

    Every Jew has their own challenge(s) on this Earth in fulfilling their duty to bring G-d’s name glory through creating a Dira Besachtonim. It is not up to us to judge or decide for another Jew where their challenge lies. I’m certain there are mitzvos that you find very hard to do yourself – while many very non Frum Yidden may very well find it extremely easy and simple to do others which you may never have even thought about – like Tzdaka and Ahavas Yisrael. So their challenge is to keep Shabbos while yours is to think more positively of your fellow Jew! To see and decide that their being non Shabbos keeping and not davening on a daily basis as a basis for the opinion that their only “salvation” (sounds Xtian doesn’t it?) is to die al kidush Hashem is a bit twisted, and I would recommend for you to look very deep into your priorities and moral perspective in the light of the Torah to get it reoriented a bit….
    I don’t mean it in a scathing, heated sense! Just a very sincere recommendation!!

    #2311696
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Bahadi Kavshi dRachmana lama lach. Mai d’mifkadta ibai lach l’me’evad. Uma dnicha kamei Kudhsa Brich Hu l’avid. (Brachos 10)

    We do what we are told and don’t make other worldly cheshbonos. We are told to be osek in saving Jewish lives so that is what we do. What they do with their gift of life is their decision and nisayon.

    #2311698
    echo
    Participant

    the initial premise of your question is incorrect.

    only those who are killed for refusing to sin are considered מת על קידוש השם

    being killed for just bieng a jew just reduces the punishments after death because the pain of death and death itself is מכפר on some (but not all) of the עבירות and on this the גמרא says: מת מיתה משונה הוי ליה כפרה

    for more resources on this topic see rabbi Yosef Mizrachi’s lecture on you tube.

    #2311715
    mobico
    Participant

    As mentioned, there does not seem to be any source for the assumption of the OP.
    Pidyon Shevuyim is a Mitzvah, with no strings attached.
    It is not at all unlikely that someone redeemed from captivity may well change for the better. Either way, it is almost gaurenteed that they will perform more Mitzvos afterward then in captivity.

    #2311712
    @fakenews
    Participant

    @Echo: that is no longer a politically correct thing to say.

    I hope you are not a politician.

    #2311750
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    only those who are killed for refusing to sin are considered מת על קידוש השם
    being killed for just bieng a jew just reduces the punishments after death because the pain of death and death itself is מכפר on some (but not all) of the עבירות and on this the גמרא says: מת מיתה משונה הוי ליה כפרה

    According to the Chasam Sofer (YD 333), any Jew, even a rasha, who is killed by a goy, is considered a kadosh and receives a complete and immediate kapara for all sins.

    I don’t know if there are other opinions, but it doesn’t hurt to lean לכף זכות.

    However, this obviously doesn’t justify allowing a Jew to die, as was beautifully explained by previous posters.

    #2311792
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    There was a very famous Rebetzin, a daughter of a great Rosh Yeshiva in Lita and subsequently wife and mother of great American Roshei Yeshivos, who had her entire family murdered by the Nazis YM”S.
    She told her talmidos that she is not sure who is better off, her family that was murdered in front of her eyes or herself. “They went straight to Olam Habah, but me, who knows?”

    #2311861
    Shazsheri
    Participant

    במחילת כבודכם,

    There may very well be families of hostages, our brothers and sisters, who will read or hear about this thread and be unimaginably pained. I suggest the moderators take it down for their sake. May it be a z’chus for their safe return.

    המקום ירחם עליהם ויוציאם מצרה לרוחה ומאפלה לאורה ומשעבוד לגאולה השתא בעגלא ובזמן קריב אמן

    #2312147
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Thank You” on the Hooleh album has the lyrics “smile shining” repeated in the chorus; that’s what popped into my head from reading your description.
    Hatzlochoh!

    #2312153
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Instead of trying to calculate things for the future just do what the Torah says:
    לא תעמד על דם רעך

    #2312607
    toonaphish
    Participant

    I appreciate the answers; I personally do try davening for non-frum hostages, as well as all Jews in Israel, as that seems to be in public opinion the right thing to do. But I do want to make sure I’m doing the right thing. I know the gemarah says ve’ohavta lreiyacha komocha – “Rei’acha” means “oiseh maaseh amcha”; those who do the deeds of the Jewish nation. Doesn’t sound like uncoditional love for anyone with Jewish blood. I assume the same applies to “lo saamoid al dam reiacha”.
    I’m not coming to differentiate between people with different levels of observance; even amei ha’aretz are “malei mitzvos k’rimon” in my eyes. But for those who don’t believe in Torah & mitzvos at all – as unfortunately is the case for most secular Jews – can anyone give me a credible source that they’re still supposed to be in my hearts & prayers?

    #2312633

    There are reports from WW2 of most “secular” Yidden changing, or revealing, their better parts at critical moments, such as Polish Bund members running to save sifrei Torah from a burning shul and being killed for that. Given the background of most “secular” Jews today, you can safely presume their neshoma is in place and will reveal it.

    #2312709
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    I personally do try davening for non-frum hostages, as well as all Jews in Israel, as that seems to be in public opinion the right thing to do. But I do want to make sure I’m doing the right thing…Doesn’t sound like uncoditional love for anyone with Jewish blood. I assume the same applies to “lo saamoid al dam reiacha”.

    Before coming to such a critical decision, I would speak to a rav moreh horaah, not rely on what people say on the internet.

    can anyone give me a credible source that they’re still supposed to be in my hearts & prayers?

    One is obligated to be mechalel Shabbos to save a Jewish life even in a case of safek (such as unsure if it’s a Yid or goy).
    If a complete rasha is mekadesh a woman on condition that he is a complete tzaddik, it is kiddushin misafek because the person may have had a hirhur teshuva at that moment and become a tzaddik gomur.
    How much more so regarding the hostages, which (a) how do you know what they believe in their hearts? And (b) how could a Jew not have a hirhur teshuvah when in such a miserable, critical situation?
    So it is definitely much more than a safek.

    Also, these people are תינוקות שנשבו לבין העכו”ם (literally and figuratively) whom are considered אונס according to the Rambam.

    The Chazon Ish writes that the “non believers” of today are not considered real kofrim due to the hardships of their surroundings.

    There are many more sources (and your entire premise about ואהבת לרעך is wrong according to many opinions), but either way, it is definitely better to err on the side of protecting and davening for another Jewish life than the opposite ch”v.

    The very fact that this was a question shows on a very faulty chinuch, or a serious troll. (Or both.)

    #2312777
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    AAQ,

    Well said.

    #2313284
    Participant
    Participant

    toonaphish asks why s/he should daven for hostages not to be killed, and everyone answers “because there’s a chiyuv to save them.”

    Do you mean that there’s an obligation to save them through davening for them? Otherwise, you didn’t answer the question,.

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