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Health: doomsday -“The MMR Study has Healthy User Bias, 4-14% of the No-MMR Children may have gotten the MMR, the PROOF was based on TWENTY-THREE Children – not 95,000 – and just because NO MMR Children get Autism does NOT mean that MMR does not cause Autism”
I already told you that s/o who has NO Education – can’t comment on research studies.
I have a Masters Degree. And I am quoting from PhD SCIENTISTS who DEBUNKED the Fraudulent
Studies funded by the CDC!Ubiquitin: I’m not sure what yo umean by “bad for the government”
The CDC is a government agency but unlike all other federal agencies they are allowed to accept
“Gifts” (BRIBES) from the Pharmaceutical Companies they are supposed to regulate.
CDC also owns about 50 Vaccine Patents so they ARE the Pharmaceutical Industry.Federal Government is protecting Pharmaceutical Co by Law shielding Pharmaceutical Company from
Liability for Deaths and Injuries caused by Vaccines. Congress get more MILLIONS $$$ from Pharmaceutical Company then any other Industry.Congress Refuses to pass a Bill to FORCE CDC to Conduct a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study! That means congress KNOWS vaccines ARE causing Injury but is helping COVER IT UP!
State Governments are FORCING Parents to vaccinate children against their will – after accepting MILLIONS $$$ from Pharmaceutical Companies.
When the Truth about the Dangers of Vaccines comes out – not only will Pharmaceutical Company be destroyed but it will expose that Government – Federal and State – as TRAITORS to the People and are working FOR Corporations who give them MILLION $$$ – and AGAINST the People of USA!
doomsday -“Yes, all vaccines can cause autism.”
Mr./Ms. Scientist, How could all Vaxxines cause Autism – you know well that they DON’T all have the same ingredients? Oh I know, it’s the needle – cause you puncture them!
doomsday -“The MMR Study has Healthy User Bias, 4-14% of the No-MMR Children may have gotten the MMR, the PROOF was based on TWENTY-THREE Children – not 95,000 – and just because NO MMR Children get Autism does NOT mean that MMR does not cause Autism”
Why do you continue to LIE?!?
I posted to you that s/o who has NO Education – can’t comment on research studies.I wrote that you need to look at the references.
One reference that the study brings is this -“795 of whom were unvaccinated”.
Not 23 kids – YOU LIAR!jay23,
Ratio Calculation Crash Course
Purpose: The single and only purpose of calculating a ratio here, is to measure the level of risk for a potential underlying cause.
Method:
Step 1) Determine the factor that exposes them to the risk.
Step 2) Count EVERYONE who has that factor.
Step 3) Count EVERYONE within step #2 who was actually affected.
Step 4) Divide step 2 by step 3.
For MMR group:
1) Recieving MMR
2) 86,063
3) 792
4) 1:108___
Non-MMR Group
1) Being human with genes.
2) 95,000
3) can’t know who would’ve been triggered by genetics anyways.
4) can’t calculate without #3.___
The study messed up at Step #1. It counts the Non-MMR group based on a criteria that doesn’t play any role whatsoever in their risk.
1) lacking MMR – bad – this doesn’t expose them to Autism
2) 7,735 – bad – see step 1
3) 68 – bad – see step 1
4) 1:113 – bad – see step 1So the number you see is a worthless number. It shows nothing about the level of risk those children are exposed to. When you take their real risk factor into account (as above) and make a legitimate ratio, it can indeed be 1:500.
Health, when Fake Researchers say “unvaccinated” they mean a child who did not get ONE vaccine, like the
MMR. It does NOT mean 100% unvaccinated. This was mentioned many times on this thread.doomsday -“It does NOT mean 100% unvaccinated”
If you would have looked at the Reference, they differentiate between unvaxxed & partial vaxxing.
I know that I can’t convince you of the truth because you have been brainwashed Years & Years ago!
But stop convicing others, with your Conspiracy Theories, esp. in the Frum community about vaccinations, because YOU Anti-vaxxers are too blame for the Measles Epidemic!Health Mr./Ms. Scientist, How could all Vaxxines cause Autism – you know well that they DON’T all have the same ingredients?
Vaccines contain known neurotoxins like aluminum – and some still contain “trace” amounts of thimerosal, flu vaccines contain thimerosal. Other vaccines contain live viruses like Measles which can cause
encephalopathy (brain swelling) which can cause permanent brain damage i.e. autism.
And these vaccines are given to fetuses and newborn babies whose brains are very vulnerable to damage. These vaccines are combined – 6-7 given at a time.
That’s how vaccines cause autism in
1:50 children.@keej123
1- in your understanding how would a study ever be done to prove mmr doesn’t cause autism
2-if the rate of autism is 1-500 then why does a group of 7500 non mmr kids have more than 15 autistic kids ? (68 no less)and what does that have to do with the other 7 billion people on this planet. Please explainHealth, out of 95,000 records they found 23 Children who
1. Had an older sibling with Autism
2. Did not get MMR
3. Had AutismThese 23 Children was the “Proof” used that MMR does not cause autism. NOT!
Yes there were hundreds who did not get MMR but only 23 who had NO MMR, Had Autism, Had a
Sibling with Autism.Health because YOU Anti-vaxxers are too blame for the Measles Epidemic!
And you ProVaxxers are responsible for the epidemic of: Autism, ADHD, Learning Disabilities, Diabetes,
Epilepsy, Allergies, Asthma, and Cancer!I’ll take measles any day over all of the above!
doomsday -“These 23 Children was the “Proof” used that MMR does not cause autism. NOT!”
It shows your lack of understanding of the article! Once you have kids who get Autism from things besides MMR, the theory that MMR is behind Autism is Not on the TOP of the list. How about Genetics?
“And you ProVaxxers are responsible for the epidemic of: Autism, ADHD, Learning Disabilities, Diabetes, Epilepsy, Allergies, Asthma, and Cancer!”
Wow, you never stop with your lying! They have theories why allergies/asthma are more prevalent in our society than ever before – because of the Western World obsession with cleanliness.
They actually have studies that point to this.
But your not interested in real science, just in your CONSPIRACY THEORIES!
That’s what happens when you don’t have a REAL EDUCATION!doomsday – “I’ll take measles any day over all of the above!”
Obviously you have NO Morals or Religion!
From the WHO:
“Even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available, in 2017, there were 110,000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.”Doomsday
“The CDC is a government agency…”i’m still not sure what you mean, but you ignored my question (as usual)
“Congress Refuses to pass a Bill to FORCE CDC to Conduct a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study! That means congress KNOWS vaccines ARE causing Injury but is helping COVER IT UP!”
that logic is sketchy at best. If congress refuses to FORCE CDC to conduct a study as to whether JFK was abducted by a UFO, does that mean they KNOW that pickles are delicious?
More questions
Can you think of any case where congress forced the CDC to do a study?
Can you think of any of the literally thousands of study’s out there that made any pro-disease individual go “hmmmm… maybe I am mistaken” why do you think one more study would be different?“So the number you see is a worthless number”
This is regarding the MMR autism study.
Why do you say so?
It has a very large p-value (specifically the low-risk group).
has a VERY wide confidence interval of 0.76-1.54 which means that the true value can be anywhere in that range.This means if this study were to be repeated 100 times, the true estimate would fall between 0.76 and 1.54.
So the one fractional difference you found between that one group, is extremely insignificant.
The point was, regardless of which way you slice the data, the numbers are the same other than the ones that are at higher risk, which is older siblings (genetics).
“why do you think one more study would be different?”
It will only be different if it concludes the same as the radical anti-medicine people. Otherwise, it is worthless.
It can also be worthwhile, if they can cherry-pick a paragraph or cherry pick what data and just post half of the data to make it seem as if it proves their position.
Cherry Picking:
“suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.”ubiquitin,
you misunderstand; Doomsday feel that the CRC, entire US Government, entire world wide medical profession and most of the general public are part of the conspiracy against Anti-Vaxxers. She has never addressed why she does not follow the Da’as Torah except to say there are unnamed rabbi that are anti-vaxxers despite the vast majority are require vacations; i.e. we follow the majority which she may remember from her Bas Yaakov days.There are anti-vaxxers that are
1) Anti-establishment
2) Anti-science
3) Anti-medicine
4) Anti-personal physicians
5) Unwilling to follow the far majority of Da’as Torah
6) Are placing their personal views above HalachahKeej,
Non-MMR Group
1) Being human with genes.
2) 95,000
3) can’t know who would’ve been triggered by genetics anyways.
4) can’t calculate without #3.Regarding #3, that’s the whole point of the study. We’re starting with the asssumption that autism is caused by either MMR or genetics or both. If someone in the non-MMR group had autism, then we assume it was triggered by genetics (because that’s the only possibility, based on our asssumptions). So we do have all the numbers we need, and therefore we can calculate #4.
doomsday – “I’ll take measles any day over all of the above!”
Health: Obviously you have NO Morals or Religion! From the WHO:
“Even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available, in 2017, there were 110,000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.”MMR IS MORE DANGEROUS THEN MEASLES IN USA:
The 110k deaths reported globally are from STARVING Children in Third World Countries.
Measles Deaths are Very Rare in USA and First World Countries!
Per the CDC, before Measles Vaccine was introduced in 1963, the death rate from Measles was about
1:10,000. The risk of Death or PERMANENT Injury from MMR Vaccine is 4:10,000.
“A more serious side effect is seizure, which occurs in about 1 in 640 children vaccinated with MMR2—about five times more often than seizure from measles infection.3”
From PhysiciansFor Informed Consent.Org – that’s an ANTI-VAX website by REAL MEDICAL DOCTORS!In USA there are ZERO Deaths from Measles per year VS 168 Deaths after vaccine reported to VAERS per year. And only 1-13% of Serious Adverse Events are even reported so Deaths from Vaccines can be
10 – 100 times MORE then 168!7) Completely unwilling or unable to be logical.
Ubiquiton: Can you think of any case where congress forced the CDC to do a study?
Can you think of any of the literally thousands of study’s out there that made any pro-disease individual go “hmmmm… maybe I am mistaken” why do you think one more study would be different?1. Congress accepts More $$$ from Pharmaceutical Company then any other industry, so Congress will never
Force CDC to conduct any study!2. There are NOT “literally” “Thousands” of studies on vaccine safety. About 200.
NONE OF THOSE sponsored by CDC or Pharmaceutical Industry are Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed! NONE! NADA! ZIP!
I have PROVEN that the two MAIN Studies used to “Prove” that MMR or Thimerosal does not cause Autism ARE FRAUDULENT. And Neither Ubiquiton nor any other ProVaxxer on this thread has been able to
Refute my Proof of FRAUD!3. WHY Does CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? This IS the study Anti-Vaxxers have been demanding! This is the Study some CongressMEN have demanded CDC do – and they proposed a BILL to FORCE CDC to conduct a VAXXED VS UNVAXXED STUDY which Congress refused to pass!
It was a SMOKER VS NON SMOKER STUDY that PROVED Smoking Causes Cancer – After the Tobacco Industry HIRED SCIENTISTS To LIE that Smoking does NOT Cause Cancer for THIRTY YEARS!!!
There have been some Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies – and they showed that UnVaxxed have far less
Autism, ADHD, Learning Disabilities, Asthma, Allergies etc.ProVaxxers: I have repeatedly asked this question but you cannot answer it:
WHY Won’t CDC do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? (Retrospective – no “ethical” issues)Meno: If someone in the non-MMR group had autism, then we assume it was triggered by genetics
Since the No-MMR Children would have received 32 doses of other vaccines by age 4, you can’t say it was
genetics alone that caused Autism. It could have been the 32 doses of Vaccines other then MMR.Furthermore, children were classified as “No MMR” based on INSURANCE CLAIMS. The Study noted that the
No MMR Group was 4-14% Higher then National Average – and it is possible that the children got MMR at
SCHOOL or PUBLIC HEALTH CLINIC – and there was No Insurance Claim.
So 4-14% of the Children in the No MMR Group MAY HAVE GOTTEN THE MMR!
They may have gotten Autism and been wrongly classified as “No MMR”. So the study is Worthless.The only way to know if MMR causes Autism is to do: MMR (and NO other Vaccines vs 100% Unvaccinated.
THAT IS SCIENCE – ANYTHING ELSE IS ANTI-SCIENCE!Some Common Sense:
Anti Vaxxers Are:
1) Anti-establishment –The Torah says that this world is OLAM HASHEKER. For example do YOU believe
in Evolution? Then YOU are Anti-Establishment! Do you believe Homosexuality is Moral? Anti-Establishment!
2) Anti-science – It is PROVAXXERS who are ANTI-SCIENCE. I have Proven that the Main Scientific Studies used to “Prove” MMR doesn’t cause Autism Or Thimerosal doesn’t cause Autism are FRAUDULENT! And no Pro-Vaxxer was able to refute my proof. So Pro-Vaxxers are Anti-Science! Also, if you don’t believe in EVOLUTION, then you are also “anti-science”, right???
3) Anti-medicine 4) Anti-personal physicians
There are many MEDICAL Doctors whose opinions, Anti-Vaxxers Respect and Follow.
5) Unwilling to follow the far majority of Da’as Torah
Per the Torah, one is allowed to follow a Rav of his choosing, as long as it is a Torah-True Rov.
The Rule of “following the Majority” applies when we have a Sanhedrin, which we don’t have today R”L.
6) Are placing their personal views above Halachah
You are ignorant of Halachah. Halachah is “FOLLOW YOUR ROV” which Anti-Vaxxers do!The Government and Media point to Two Main Studies as “PROOF” that MMR or Thimerosal does not cause
Autism. The Studies are: 1. “Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data.” and 2. Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without AutismI have Clearly Explained why these two studies are FRAUDULENT – and No Pro-Vaxxer on this Thread was able to Refute my Evidence!
These studies were DEBUNKED by REAL SCIENTISTS (anti-vaxxers are NOT anti-science, we are anti-FRAUD).
The reason I don’t quote these scientists by name is because ProVaxxers start attacking the scientists instead
of just looking at the FACTS!Anti-Vaxxers are PRO-SCIENCE! That is why we want a VAXXED vs UNVAXXED STUDY!
All other studies are Fraudulent and Anti-Science!Doomsday,
It could have been the 32 doses of Vaccines other then MMR.
No it couldn’t have, because that would be contrary to our assumptions.
Please learn how science works. Thanks
Doomsday,
You got me convinced, Initially, I thought that you are completely wrong.
Yet after you have repeated yourself so many times, especially with all the CAPs, ignoring the responses and just repeating and copy-pasting stuff.
I now cave in and will embrace the religion of anti-medicine and anti-vaccines.
Doomsday: The MMR-Sibling Study was NOT vaxxed vs unvaxxed. It was Vaccines + MMR vs Vaccines/No MMR
Health: “That’s why I wrote this -“look at the notes, vaxxed to unvaxxed at all, is part of the study/article.”
It’s more than just – comparing children who GOT the MMR with Children who did NOT get the MMR!”
“If you got the article online, look at it, there is little numbers next to some lines. Click on those numbers & the references will pop up!”HEALTH, YOU’RE WRONG! Here are ALL the references from the study you told me to look up.
NONE of them say the study included 100% Unvaxxed Children as you claim. Here are ALL the References:
References
1. National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. General recommendations on immunization—recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP). MMWR Recomm Rep. 2011;60(2):1-64. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/a/age-interval-table.pdf. Accessed February 27, 2015.PubMedGoogle Scholar
2. Taylor B, Miller E, Farrington CP, et al. Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association. Lancet. 1999;353(9169):2026-2029.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
3. Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, et al. A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism. N Engl J Med. 2002;347(19):1477-1482.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
4. Demicheli V, Rivetti A, Debalini MG, Di Pietrantonj C. Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012;2:CD004407.PubMedGoogle Scholar
5. Doja A, Roberts W. Immunizations and autism: a review of the literature. Can J Neurol Sci. 2006;33(4):341-346.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
6. Mercer L, Creighton S, Holden JJ, Lewis ME. Parental perspectives on the causes of an autism spectrum disorder in their children. J Genet Couns. 2006;15(1):41-50.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
7. Gust DA, Strine TW, Maurice E, et al. Underimmunization among children: effects of vaccine safety concerns on immunization status. Pediatrics. 2004;114(1):e16-e22.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
8. Freed GL, Clark SJ, Butchart AT, Singer DC, Davis MM. Parental vaccine safety concerns in 2009. Pediatrics. 2010;125(4):654-659.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
9. Gastañaduy PA, Redd SB, Fiebelkorn AP, et al; Division of Viral Disease, National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, CDC. Measles—United States, January 1-May 23, 2014. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2014;63(22):496-499.PubMedGoogle Scholar
10. Abu Kuwaik G, Roberts W, Zwaigenbaum L, et al. Immunization uptake in younger siblings of children with autism spectrum disorder. Autism. 2014;18(2):148-155.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
11. Harrington JW, Rosen L, Garnecho A, Patrick PA. Parental perceptions and use of complementary and alternative medicine practices for children with autistic spectrum disorders in private practice. J Dev Behav Pediatr. 2006;27(2)(suppl):S156-S161.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
12. Sandin S, Lichtenstein P, Kuja-Halkola R, Larsson H, Hultman CM, Reichenberg A. The familial risk of autism. JAMA. 2014;311(17):1770-1777.ArticlePubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
13. Ozonoff S, Young GS, Carter A, et al. Recurrence risk for autism spectrum disorders: a Baby Siblings Research Consortium study. Pediatrics. 2011;128(3):e488-e495.PubMedGoogle Scholar
14. Grønborg TK, Schendel DE, Parner ET. Recurrence of autism spectrum disorders in full- and half-siblings and trends over time: a population-based cohort study. JAMA Pediatr. 2013;167(10):947-953.ArticlePubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
15. Rosenberg RE, Law JK, Anderson C, Samango-Sprouse C, Law PA. Survey of vaccine beliefs and practices among families affected by autism spectrum disorders. Clin Pediatr (Phila). 2013;52(9):871-874.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
16. US Department of Health and Human Services. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. Pub L 104-191, 104th Cong. 1996. http://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/HIPAA-Administrative-Simplification/HIPAAGenInfo/downloads/HIPAALaw.pdf. Accessed February 27, 2015.
17. Burke JP, Jain A, Yang W, et al. Does a claims diagnosis of autism mean a true case? Autism. 2014;18(3):321-330.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
18. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Table 6: contraindications and precautions to commonly used vaccines: found in General Recommendations on Immunization: Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) and from Atkinson W, Wolfe S, Hamborsky J, eds. Appendix A. Epidemiology and Prevention of Vaccine-Preventable Diseases. MMWR.2011;60(no RR-2):40-41. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/rr/rr6002.pdf. Accessed February 27, 2015.Google Scholar
19. Croen LA, Grether JK, Yoshida CK, Odouli R, Van de Water J. Maternal autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies, and childhood autism spectrum disorders: a case-control study. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159(2):151-157.ArticlePubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
20. Tuchman R, Rapin I. Epilepsy in autism. Lancet Neurol. 2002;1(6):352-358.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
21. The Lewin Group. Study of Health Outcomes in Children With Autism and Their Families. Prepared for the National Institute of Mental Health under contract HHSN-271-2010-00033C. Falls Church, VA: The Lewin Group; 2012.
22. Feudtner C, Christakis DA, Connell FA. Pediatric deaths attributable to complex chronic conditions: a population-based study of Washington State, 1980-1997. Pediatrics. 2000;106(1 pt 2):205-209.PubMedGoogle Scholar
23. Mandell DS, Wiggins LD, Carpenter LA, et al. Racial/ethnic disparities in the identification of children with autism spectrum disorders. Am J Public Health. 2009;99(3):493-498.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
24. Smith PJ, Chu SY, Barker LE. Children who have received no vaccines: who are they and where do they live? Pediatrics. 2004;114(1):187-195.PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
25. DeFrank JT, Bowling JM, Rimer BK, Gierisch JM, Skinner CS. Triangulating differential nonresponse by race in a telephone survey. Prev Chronic Dis. 2007;4(3):A60.PubMedGoogle Scholar
26. Lash TL, Fox MP, Fink AK. Applying Quantitative Bias Analysis to Epidemiologic Data. New York, NY: Springer; 2009.
27. US Census Bureau. State and County QuickFacts. Data derived from Population Estimates, American Community Survey, Census of Population and Housing, State and County Housing Unit Estimates, County Business Patterns, Nonemployer Statistics, Economic Census, Survey of Business Owners, Building Permits. 2015. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html. Accessed February 27, 2015.
28. Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network Surveillance Year 2010 Principal Investigators; Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Prevalence of autism spectrum disorder among children aged 8 years—autism and developmental disabilities monitoring network, 11 sites, United States, 2010. MMWR Surveill Summ. 2014;63(2):1-21.PubMedGoogle ScholarMeno,
Non-MMR Group
1) Being human with genes.
2) 95,000
3) can’t know who would’ve been triggered by genetics anyways.
4) can’t calculate without #3.Regarding #3, that’s the whole point of the study. We’re starting with the asssumption that autism is caused by either MMR or genetics or both. If someone in the non-MMR group had autism, then we assume it was triggered by genetics (because that’s the only possibility, based on our asssumptions). So we do have all the numbers we need, and therefore we can calculate #4.
That number you’re looking for is 68 children.
If you do that math, then you would end up with a ratio higher than 1:1,300…
Very incriminating for the pro-vaxx agenda.
And it could be that some kids who received MMR would’ve gotten Autism anyways from genetics, and this is a number we don’t have.
So i would prefer to say the study is inconclusive instead of making false calculations with unknown numbers.
“ProVaxxers: I have repeatedly asked this question but you cannot answer it:
WHY Won’t CDC do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? (Retrospective – no “ethical” issues)”Please please please stop lying.
Chazal say that people don’t lie if they will get caught. The number of times youve lied in this thread is making me doubt chazal ch”vThis question has been answered numerous times.
for example:
There have been vaccinated vs unvaccinated studies – not good enough yo u want them not to have had any vaccines, yet strangely you don’t concede that MMR doesnt increase risk of autism .
If that study would be done it wouldn’t be good enough for some other illogical reason
Aside from the fact that the control group would be pretty samll, how many parent are there who don’t care about their children at all? Ok a few skip a vaccine here or there but to deny all vaccines? ITs hard to belive there are that many pro-diseasers around. furthermore they would be self selecting, so even if it turns out that the pro-disease group has higher rate of autism, you could logically argue that because their parents are so brain damaged not to care about their kids at all that they were predisposed to other neurological conditions . This is a more logical arguemtn than your argument that MMR is somehow different than other vaccines and yet the same when it comesVery nice
Doomsday: It could have been the 32 doses of Vaccines other then MMR
Meno:No it couldn’t have, because that would be contrary to our assumptions.
Please learn how science works. ThanksYOU should learn how science works. If you want to see if MMR causes autism you would need to test
children who received ONLY the MMR vs children 100% unvaccinated.
Anything else is ANTI-SCIENCE.jay23,
1- in your understanding how would a study ever be done to prove mmr doesn’t cause autism
2-if the rate of autism is 1-500 then why does a group of 7500 non mmr kids have more than 15 autistic kids ? (68 no less)and what does that have to do with the other 7 billion people on this planet. Please explainRe. #1: I would need to know exactly how many children in the full 95k, would get autism from genetics even without MMR. Once i know this, I can calculate a legitimate ratio, measuring the level of risk for genetically-triggered Autism. Then I would compare that to the MMR ratio.
Re. #2: The ratio based on the 7,500 violated step #1 of calculating a risk ratio. You created a group based on something silly. So you got a silly ratio.
That ratio just shows the number of non-MMR children who developed Autism. You cannot take that further and say, “this is the ratio for Genetic Autism”. If you were measuring generic Autism, what business do you have looking at vaccine records?
You never tried truly measuring genetic-Autism. If you did, you would need to include all 95K. Because that’s the process for calculating a ratio. You need to include EVERYONE who was initially subject to the risk.
If you want to measure genetic-Autism, do that. But don’t measure non-MMR, then tell me this is the number you measured for genetic Autism.
If you divided those 95,000 children based on their sock color, i guarantee you that the ratios would be different too. Because that’s the ratio for sock colors, not the ratio for genetic-Autism.
Even though they happen to be inflicted with genetic-Autism. Doesn’t change the fact that the ratio is a ratio for sock colors or non-MMR, not a true ratio for genetic-Autism.
Those 68 children don’t reflect on the power of genetic Autism, because you didn’t bother to check who in the entire 95k are susceptible to genetic Autism. You singled out 7500 who didn’t get MMR and calculated a false ratio. This is a ratio of people who are non-MMR, who happen to have genetic Autism.
Having genetic-Autism, doesn’t make it a ratio for genetic-Autism.
Re 2b: “what does that have to do with the other 7 billion people on this planet.”
If you want to calculate a legit ratio, you need to include all the people who were initially subject to the risk. Because only then, can you measure the true power of the risk.
2cents,
So the one fractional difference you found between that one group, is extremely insignificant.
The point was, regardless of which way you slice the data, the numbers are the same…
I don’t care about the 1:113 vs. 1:108. As you said, this is unimportant.
My problem is that the 1:113 doesn’t qualify to be a legit ratio. So even if the numbers are the same, you’re looking at bad numbers. see 2 comments above explaining.
2Cents: Yet after you have repeated yourself so many times, especially with all the CAPs, ignoring the responses
YOU and your fellow ProVaxxers are the ones who keep repeating and IGNORING the responses.
1. I have shown you how Scientists have DEBUNKED two of the most important studies that claim to prove
that MMR or Thimerosal does not cause Autism – Yet you and all ProVaxxers Ignore the fact that your
“Holy Scientific Studies” are DEBUNKED and Fraudulent!You and your fellow ProVaxxers are Anti-Science. Facts don’t matter to you. Vaccine is a RELIGION to you!
2. You and your fellow ProVaxxers have IGNORED the Question:
Why Does the CDC refuse to do a VAXXED vs UNVAXXED STUDY? (Retrospective, no ethical issue)
All other studies are fraudulent and anti-science!
The way to judge whether or not is a religion is not to see how people behave in a debate, it’s to see how people act when they get home and live their everyday life.
Ubiquiton: This question has been answered numerous times. for example:
There have been vaccinated vs unvaccinated studies – not good enough yo u want them not to have had any vaccines,
Doomsday: Yes. UNVaccinated means NO Vaccines. I have made that very clear so you NEVER answered my question as you LIE that you did!Ubiquiton: yet strangely you don’t concede that MMR doesnt increase risk of autism .
Doomsday: As I explained UMPTEEN Times that study was DEBUNKED. If it wasn’t a RANDOMIZED MMR, the Healthy User Bias Hides the MMR-Autism Connection. Also it was comparing children who got 34 vaccines (including MMR) vs children who got 32 Vaccines (Excluding MMR) – so you can’t really tell anything in a Vaxxed vs Vaxxed Study. That is why SCIENTISTS have been asking for a Vaxxed vs UNVAXXED (100%) Study! I can’t help it if you don’t understand Science!Ubiquiton:Aside from the fact that the control group would be pretty small
Doomsday: Wrong again. Per CDC 1.3% of young children are 100% UNVACCINATED. Check their Health Records! What are you AFRAID of? That you will learn that Vaccines ARE DANGEROUS?Ubiquitonfurthermore they would be self selecting, so even if it turns out that the pro-disease group has higher rate of autism
Doomsday: And Yet ANTI-VAXXERS are the ones demanding the Study. Because WE KNOW that UNVAXXED Kids have a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH LOWER Rate of Autism then Vaxxers. Because there HAVE been
Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies that show that!Ubiquton, I have REFUTED all your inane arguments on why CDC won’t do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study!
If you are opposed to this study, then it must be VACCINE is a RELIGION to you and you are afraid
to learn the Truth! YOU FEAR SCIENCE!“I would need to know exactly how many children in the full 95k, would get autism from genetics even without MMR”
No you dont, you will never know as the 95k are not all in the same group.
Why would you ask for something thats not possible tonmnow if your honestly looking at this from a statistical standpoint?“You never tried truly measuring genetic-Autism. If you did, you would need to include all 95K”
It does, Which is why the numbers are the same across all groups aside for the ones with increased risk (siblings)
Yidd23 -“The way to judge whether or not is a religion is not to see how people behave in a debate, it’s to see how people act when they get home and live their everyday life.”
I agree, but there is an epidemic of Measles. Some of these Clowns come to Frum websites to push their SICK Agenda!
doomskup -“The 110k deaths reported globally are from STARVING Children in Third World Countries.
Measles Deaths are Very Rare in USA and First World Countries!”Another Dooms-KUP LIE!
At the most – only half are due to Malnutrition.
From the WHO:
“Nutrition-related factors contribute to about 45% of deaths in children under-5 years of age.“Per the CDC, before Measles Vaccine was introduced in 1963, the death rate from Measles was about
1:10,000. The risk of Death or PERMANENT Injury from MMR Vaccine is 4:10,000.
“A more serious side effect is seizure, which occurs in about 1 in 640 children vaccinated with MMR2—about five times more often than seizure from measles infection.”YOU DIDN’T PROVE DEATH!
Anyways we can treat seizures (epilepsy). We have AEDs. D – doesn’t stand for defibrillation!
Epilepsy doesn’t usually cause Death.doomsday -“NONE of them say the study included 100% Unvaxxed Children as you claim. Here are ALL the References:”
Another DoomsKUP LIE!
Here it is:
“24. Smith PJ, Chu SY, Barker LE. Children who have received no vaccines: who are they and where do they live? Pediatrics. 2004;114(1):187-“dooms
“Study! I can’t help it if you don’t understand Science!”I don’t need your help. Part of my job includes reading studies and even performing them. I am quite well trained thank you very mush.
However I am not as well versed in fake -science. you are making up assertions that have zero validity.
“YOU should learn how science works. If you want to see if MMR causes autism you would need to test
children who received ONLY the MMR vs children 100% unvaccinated.”
This is bogus.
If I want to test if an apple a day keeps the doctor away, I compare an apple eating group to say, an orange eating group. and see if there is a difference in their doctor visits.
It doesn’t matter if both groups eat bananas. that isnt what is being looked at.you throw around terms that you clearly don’t understand like “Healthy-user bias”
thsi isnt relevant in a retrospective study“”And Yet ANTI-VAXXERS are the ones demanding the Study. Because WE KNOW that UNVAXXED Kids have a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH LOWER Rate of Autism then Vaxxers. “”
no that isnt why. It is because you are kicking the can down the road. Once that study is done you will come up with a new complaint as you have EVERY TIME a study has been presented to you. It is the literal definition of insanity (the one attributed to Einstein) to think that THIS time you will not make up some new reason not to accept the study
“If you are opposed to this study,”
I’m not opposed to any study. I am just certain it will be a pure waste of money and time. I have been down this road for years. Nothing will satisfy you. Look at the Jama study. You are literally making up “science” rules to run from life saving vaccines
I think it is a waste of time responding to you, you’re intention must be to obfuscate people because What you are writing is sheer stupidity. It feels silly to respond to your post but I’ll try anyway.
You wrote you first need to tell me now many non mmr people get autism. Now I can’t figure out how you would go about it but I can tell you how anyone else would, take any group of people and do the ratio and there you have it. So if vaccines don’t cause autism then you can measure any group of people or in our case any 8000 people and you would have your rate . However some people believe that vaccines cause autism and therefor vaccinated people have an additional risk to Austism than a human without mmr. So we take 2 groups of people one with mmr and one without mmr and study each group separately to get the rate of austism and then compare the rates . And if the rate of non mmr is 1-113 that means any group of 8000 people out of the 7billion humans ok earth will have that rate of austism in it(obviously some adjusting is needed ) so your claim that you can’t look at the 8 without the 86 is crazy.And being that the study shows the same rate for both then this proves that mmr does not cause autism and therefor you can add both groups together and get the same rate as there is no difference between the people in the group precisely because we proved mmr is a non factor. And so too if you take any 8000 from the 86000 you should get the same rate.
I called it genetic autism as opposed to mmr , if you wanna day it comes from the water or bread we eat that too is ok, we are disproving mmr not that it’s genetics as opspoed to bacteria in water
You write non mmr isn’t a factor in genetic autism, of course it isn’t but they don’t have the factor that is being blamed for autism so any case they have must be caused by something else be it Air or water genetics or bread, and that is precisely what we are trying to determine is all autism non vaccines related or not
Jay23,
Thanks for the feedback.
Apparently, you never saw it necessary to understand how ratios work, which is fine. I appreciate the opportunity to interact with you here. Best wishes.
2cents
“I would need to know exactly how many children in the full 95k, would get autism from genetics even without MMR”
No you dont, you will never know as the 95k are not all in the same group.
Why would you ask for something thats not possible tonmnow if your honestly looking at this from a statistical standpoint?Apparently this is our point of disagreement.
According to your perspective, creating a group out of non-MMR children, and making a ratio from that is an acceptable way to measure the level of risk for genetic-Autism.
In my view, creating a group out of non-MMR children, doesn’t do a justice at all to measure the risk for genetic-Autism, because there are more people who were initially subject to this risk but excluded from the group since they did receive the MMR.
So in effect, you excluded people (based on their vaccine-status) who really should reflect on the real ratio of genetic-Autism.
So what is the real ratio, I can never know, as you mentioned earlier as well.
Keej123, you are spouting absolute nonsense.
Your whole issue with the way the study calculates the ratios is based on an assumption that MMR causes autism. The study is designed to test that assumption so obviously doesn’t assume it as a given.
Absolute nonsense.
Ubiquitin, how’s machla doing?
Anti-vaxxers will NEVER admit the Truth!
They have been claiming Vaccines cause Autism for Years:“Vaccines and Autism: Evidence Does Not Support a Causal Association
F DeStefano
First published: 10 October 2007 https://doi.org/10.1038/sj.clpt.6100407 Cited by: 3
Abstract
A suggested association between certain childhood vaccines and autism has been one of the most contentious vaccine safety controversies in recent years. Despite compelling scientific evidence against a causal association, many parents and parent advocacy groups continue to suspect that vaccines, particularly measles–mumps–rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal‐containing vaccines (TCVs), can cause autism.”Ok keej, here’s a hypothetical study. Let’s see what you think:
The purpose of the study is to determine the risk factor in the general population for autism.
I take a random sample of 100,000 people.
I remove 10,000 people who are wearing red socks, because I hate red socks. (I’m justified in doing this, because we can all agree that the color of one’s socks has no effect on his risk for autism, so the autism ratio in the remaining group should be the same as in the original group.)
I’m now left with 90,000 people. I find that 900 have autism. I conclude that the risk factor for autism among the general population is 1:100.
Thoughts?
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