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2Cents: Dooms, There are retrospective studies, I have pointed out a few, why are you still requesting them when they actually exist?
Here is 2Cents Lying that there ARE vaxxed vs unvaxxed retrospective studies. But when I checked out the studies that 2Cents “pointed out” they are NOT vaxxed vs unvaxxed!!! And 2Cents writes that she KNEW they were not vaxxed vs unvaxxed when she posted that they WERE!
“I’ve heard this claim several times. Ever since I found out that it is not true, I have been amazed how it just keeps resurfacing. I would like to put this myth to rest. I am aware of at least seven original research papers and one meta-analysis (looking at another 6 randomised clinical trials or RCTs) published since 2009 which look at myriad aspects of general health, comparing large unvaccinated and vaccinated populations. I will lay them out below, but to put it shortly: vaccinated people are as healthy or healthier in all aspects compared to the unvaccinated. The vaccinated populations studied have fewer vaccine preventable diseases (may seem obvious, but nevertheless needs to be mentioned), fewer cases of asthma, fewer heart attacks, better birth outcomes, and higher cognitive scores than their unvaccinated counterparts. To note, the incidence of autism is also unchanged in populations with or without the MMR vaccine…”
Thoughtscapism
Of course, as I mentioned, the studies are far from perfect because they’re retrospective, but they exist.
Folks, I want to point out how 2Cents and Health LIE! When I asked why CDC won’t do vaxxed vs unvaxxed study, 2 Cents cited TWO studies claiming they were vaxxed vs unvaxxed. I checked the studies and they were comparing Vaxxed to Vaxxed. I asked both 2Cents and Health – Are these studies vaxxed vs unvaxxed and they both said YES! See below:
Doomday: #1635370: Health, Did the study you cited compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children?
Please just answer YES or NO. Thank you.
2Cents: #1635379: Dooms, the answer is yes.Health: #1635634 Doomsday:“Health, was this study comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children?
I want a Yes or No answer, please. Second request.”
Health: Yes; amongst other things.When I point out that they are WRONG – that studies compare vaxxed with vaxxed, Health insists the studies ARE a vaxxed vs unvaxxed and calls me names that I didn’t finish high school and don’t understand!
2Cents claims she knew all along that the study was only comparing whether Vaxxed children did or did not get ONE vaccine – which means she deliberate LIED when she said repeatedly these were vaxxed vs unvaxxed studies!
Dooms,
“Here is 2Cents Lying that there ARE vaxxed vs unvaxxed retrospective studies. But when I checked out the studies that 2Cents “pointed out” they are NOT vaxxed vs unvaxxed!!! And 2Cents writes that she KNEW they were not vaxxed vs unvaxxed when she posted that they WERE!”
A. In case anyone was complimenting Dooms on being only on the facts and not on the name calling, well here you have Dooms calling me a liar, Guess what, your an idiot.
you know you are an idiot? Because myself and others have addressed this very point you just made numerous times, yet you continue to bring it up as if you are adding some substance.
Yes, this IS a retrospective study, and yes, it is limited to the MMR vaccine, where have I lied??I have mentioned this many times, this is about the MMR vaccine, which was the topic at the time that this was posted, however you are either very dumb or just a fraud so you hang your arguments on twisting the truth which is why most people that actually rely on true facts and true data are not with you in your cult-like anti-medicine belief.
B. I have asked you specifically, what exactly do you want should be studied that has not been studied?
C. Autism, that has been the claim against the MMR vaccine, that has been proven to be non-existent.
D. All other diseases that we are seeing these days, have been studied with no correlation between the diseases and the vaccines. In fact, the vaccinated group has shown to have less of these diseases.
E. SIDS, no correlation, in fact, there is a significant reduction with vaccinations. Just in case you will twist this one, not just SIDS has seen a significant reduction, postneonatal mortality, in general, has also seen a significant reduction, so whichever way you or your people at these radical fringe blogs want to twist this, there is a reduction. (lol to the comment about nurses standing by with crash carts for infants that are being vaccinated).
F. The history of anti-vaccine is not recent, this has been ongoing since the very start. From claiming that smallpox is not dangerous to the point of arguing that disease is caused by the mind and the ‘germ theory’ is not true. Of course, we have Wakefield with his fraudulent study that began blaming the MMR vaccine on autism.
His study was confirmed to be a manipulation of incorrect facts, he reported results that were false and did not even take the effort to defend his writings.So once again, where did I lie in this thread (I can point to numerous times that you have either intentionally lied or simply just posted what others have lied about) and also, what study are you looking for?
re: DaasYochid 5 studies claiming to be vaxxed vs unvaxxed: They are NOT – see below:
1) Germany 2011. (Schmitz et al) Full paper: Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents
NOT GOOD: Vaccinated is defined as having “at least ONE vaccine”. So this study compares Unvaxxed to children who got as little as ONE vaccine. It is not comparing 100% Unvaccinated vs Vaccinated per CDC schedule – or anything even CLOSE to the CDC schedule. Another FRAUDULENT deliberately MISLEADING study pretending to be Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed.
Also, this study only had 50 Unvaccinated children – not enough to be conclusive.2) Germany 2013 (Grabenhenrich et al) Full Paper: Early-life determinants of asthma from birth to age 20 years: A German birth cohort study
NOT GOOD: Again, Vaccinated children who did not receive 3 Vaccines (MMR, BCG or Tick TE) were FRAUDULENTLY called “UnVaccinated” Children – when they were Vaccinated!!!
Also, ONLY checked for asthma – not for neurological problems like Autism, ADHD, learning disabilities or
autoimmune diseases like diabetes or allergies.3) Philippines 2011 (Bloom et al) Full Paper: The effect of vaccination on children’s physical and cognitive development in the Philippines
NOT GOOD: Vaccinated children were NOT vaccinated per CDC schedule – FAR fewer vaccines. Only received ONE DOSE of Aluminum containing Vaccine DPT. But CDC schedule FORCES 11 doses of Aluminum containing vaccines by age 6 months, and 16 doses of Aluminum containing vaccines by 2 years. Aluminum adjuvant is probably the most dangerous vaccine ingredient. CDC Schedule: 11 Doses by Six Months = 3,675 mcg Aluminum in FIRST 6 MONTHS! + 4 More doses of Aluminum before age 2 compared to ONLY ONE dose DPT (625 mcg) done in Phillipines!
There were other explanations why Vaccinated kids scored higher in school (NOT the vaccines)!
The Vaccinated children had:
1) had mothers with more education,
2) had higher socioeconomic status,
3) lived in larger homes,
4) had more toilet/sanitation access,
5) had fewer siblings,
6) had better-nourished mothers,
7) had more breastfeeding as infants…than the unvaccinated.
Studies 4 and 5 were NOT vaccinated vs Unvaccinated but Vaccinated + FLU vaccine vs Vaccinated w/o
FLU vaccine.Folks, See how Vaccine Industry LIES? Look at the title of insert that Daas Yochid posted:
“No studies comparing health of Vaccinated vs UnVaccinated? What about these?”</strong?As I just PROVED – these studies are NOT Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed and are FRAUDULENT Studies put out by
Vaccine Industry to Cover Up that Vaccines are DANGEROUS and NOT worth the Risk!!!2cents: B. I have asked you specifically, what exactly do you want should be studied that has not been studied?
I, and others, have answered SPECIFICALLY we want a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study – comparing the TOTAL Health of Vaccinated vs UnVaccinated. And you lied and cited 2 studies saying they ARE vaxxed vs Unvaxxed studies but they are NOT!
As I said, they’re not perfect, because they’re retrospective.
Would you least admit that more vaccination is better than less?
Dooms, “Here is 2Cents Lying that there ARE vaxxed vs unvaxxed retrospective studies. But when I checked out the studies that 2Cents “pointed out” they are NOT vaxxed vs unvaxxed!!! And 2Cents writes that she KNEW they were not vaxxed vs unvaxxed when she posted that they WERE!”
2Cents: Guess what, your an idiot….Yes, this IS a retrospective study, and yes, it is limited to the MMR vaccine, where have I lied?? I have mentioned this many times, this is about the MMR vaccine,
Folks, 2Cents LIES and when caught in a LIE she LIES again to try to cover up her Lie! The debate was about “Why does the CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study?” and 2Cents cited Two Studies that she and Health REPEATEDLY said were Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed when I asked! When I pointed out both these studies were ONLY about MMR Vaccine and NOT a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed, 2Cents calls me an Idiot and said the debate was about MMR Vaccine. See 2Cents Posts below PROVING debate was “Why won’t CDC do Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies” Proof that 2Cents LIES and when caught, LIES some more:
2Cents: #1635679 Dooms: “I still have not heard an explanation on why CDC refuses to do a RETROSPECTIVE study comparing”.
the problem I personally have with this discussion is that most of the stuff you bring up have been addressed more than once on this thread, yet just ignore them and continue to copy paste the nonsense.
There are retrospective studies, here is one. PubMed 12523209, in fact, it is a very large one.
Here is another one, JAMA 22754442Cents #1633206 Dooms: – explain to my WHY CDC refuses to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study?”
There are many explanations why it is not ethical not to vaccinate a group of people just for the purpose of a study, however the data is pretty clear, See below. (of course you only accept made up and twisted data that supports your theory, not true data).
JAMA 22754442cents#1636429Doom: “The only study I heard Anti-Vaxxers ask for is a RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study. Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.”
A. There have been numerous studies, I myself have provided a few on the other thread, not sure why you fail to appreciate responses that are directed at your posts, (I guess because all you can do is just copy paste from some silly radical site). If you would actually care about facts, you would not just repeat the same questions time after time.Folks, was the debate on Why CDC refuses to do Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed ? Or a debate on MMR Vaccine as 2Cents lies? (and calls me an “Idiot” for saying the debate was on Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed study)
Again, there is no way to do a fully vaxxed vs. fully unvaxxed study accurately, as repeated multiple times, but there are multiple studies indicating that more vaccination is beneficial.
Daas Yochid: there is no way to do a fully vaxxed vs. fully unvaxxed study accurately, as repeated multiple times
Why Not??? There WERE Smoker vs NonSmoker retrospective studies that showed that Smokers have MUCH Higher Rates of Lung Cancer so why can’t there be a Retrospective study on Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed???
Why Not??? There WERE Smoker vs NonSmoker retrospective studies that showed that Smokers have MUCH Higher Rates of Lung Cancer so why can’t there be a Retrospective study on Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed???
Because there’s no way to control for side factors. For example, you wrote:
“The Vaccinated children had:
1) had mothers with more education,
2) had higher socioeconomic status,
3) lived in larger homes,
4) had more toilet/sanitation access,
5) had fewer siblings,
6) had better-nourished mothers,
7) had more breastfeeding as infants”Doomsday
This question has been posed to you several times, you have yet to answer.
Since you enjoy postive support I asked my anti-vax neighbor to ask her question, her words follow:
Hi dooms! Machla here
Great job standing up to these anti-disease bullies You are doing a fantastic job repeating the same hings over and over no matter how often it is debunked. keep it up. we need people like you out there defending our rights. I like driving around the neighborhood with my kids balanced on the roof of my car, would you believe that the government has been trying to stop me! Whats next banning bris milah! (as you of course know as number of kids riding in cars has increased autism has increased thereby proving that riding in a car causes autism) .At any rate though one question I’ve been getting, that I’m not quite sure how to answer is the following:
My pro-vax neighbor says he respects my right not to vaccinate, but he doesn’t want my kids in the same school as his. Now we both know that his kids are MORE likely to get measles than my unvaccinated kids, but he raises a good point if he based on his flawed studies wants to keep his kids in a vaxx only school, what right do we have to force our vaccine-free kids on theirs?Thanks, all the best!
MachlaLucy feel fre to answer as well
Machla lol
Dooms,
“Folks, was the debate on Why CDC refuses to do Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed ? Or a debate on MMR Vaccine as 2Cents lies? (and calls me an “Idiot” for saying the debate was on Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed study)”
I am actually enjoying this, now the focus is if what I posted was a lie or not, great! now facts are not important and you consider this a win to a debate.
However, as I have pointed out many times, this is not a debate I am looking to win rather the facts and truth is what form my opinion, the study was to compare MMR vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The discussion was about autism which was only blamed (by wakefield) on the MMR vaccine.
Unlike you, I have not told you to go an google anything, I have posted actual studies with the intention that you and others will actually review them, these are not lies or twisting the truth. this is the actual truth.
If you had the impression that I intended to imply that the studies I listed concluded something else than I implied, I had made this clear earlier that this was not the case, so what is your point here?
Also, you have not responded, do you now acknowledge that the studies showing that the MMR vaccine is not linked to autism (which was the only vaccine that was blamed to cause autism) prove that there is no link?
What OTHER studies are you looking for?
You just keep on accusing me of lying, this is not about me, this is about the facts, seems like you have a problem with the facts, so you just hang on to accusations. fine with me.
Finally – we’ve reached the crux of the vaccine debate (thank you daas yochid)…no experimental research. True experimental research requires random assignment and an experimental manipulation. Random assignment means that each member of the sample (study participants) has has an equal and independent chance of being assigned to the control (placebo) group or the experimental group (to receive vaccines). This minimizes other differences between the participants in the two groups (e.g., mother’s education, socioeconomic status, etc.). Experimental research is the ONLY research approach that Demonstrates cause and effect. That’s what we need, folks – and it’s not unethical – there are plenty of parents on the fence, some of whom might be willing to participate in a true experiment (random assignment, one group gets the vaccine, the other does not). It’s simple enough – to argue “unethical” is itself unethical and unscientific – we can lay rest to the debate and know the truth with very little effort. Why is this not being done?
2Cents: The discussion was about autism which was only blamed (by wakefield) on the MMR vaccine.
Folks, see how 2cents continues to LIE and deny that we were discussing Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study and NOT MMR as 2cents lies?!? Look at the posts below – is the word MMR mentioned once? NO!
Are the words “Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed study mentioned repeatedly? YES! Folks, who is the Liar?Doomday: #1635370: ..Did the study you cited compare vaccinated children to unvaccinated children? Please just answer YES or NO. Thank you.
2Cents: #1635379: Dooms, the answer is yes.2Cents: #1635679 Dooms: “I still have not heard an explanation on why CDC refuses to do a RETROSPECTIVE study comparing”.
the problem I personally have with this discussion is that most of the stuff you bring up have been addressed more than once on this thread, yet just ignore them and continue to copy paste the nonsense.
There are retrospective studies, here is one. PubMed 12523209, in fact, it is a very large one.
Here is another one, JAMA 22754442Cents #1633206 Dooms: – explain to my WHY CDC refuses to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study?”
There are many explanations why it is not ethical not to vaccinate a group of people just for the purpose of a study, however the data is pretty clear, See below. (of course you only accept made up and twisted data that supports your theory, not true data).
JAMA 22754442cents#1636429Doom: “The only study I heard Anti-Vaxxers ask for is a RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study. Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.”
A. There have been numerous studies, I myself have provided a few on the other thread, not sure why you fail to appreciate responses that are directed at your posts, (I guess because all you can do is just copy paste from some silly radical site). If you would actually care about facts, you would not just repeat the same questions time after time.Ubiquiton: wants to keep his kids in a vaxx only school, what right do we have to force our vaccine-free kids on theirs?
1. Because Recently Vaccinated Children can Spread disease (including measles) so what right do you have to
bar vaccine-free kids, when you allow Recently Vaccinated Children to attend school?2. Since Vaccines are 97% effective, 3% of the vaccinated children are unknowingly “vaccine-free”. So since
3% of kids are anyway “vaccine-free” what right do you have to bar other “vaccine-free” kids from school?3. Vaccines only give TEMPORARY immunity so most of the ADULTS in school are de-facto “vaccine-free”.
Since these Not-Immune ADULTS are allowed in schools/daycare, what right do you have to bar “vaccine-free” kids from school?Studies are one thing, reality is another…
Parents are coming in to our own Doctors immediately after vaccines, with issues that never occurred before.
They’re being told that those issues are normal occurrences and have no relation to vaccines, based on these studies that you so stubbornly cling to…
(If I can address my doctor here:)
Reality check: Do the experiences of your own patients match the picture painted by all these studies?
Reality check: If parents keep telling you that this child was perfectly normal a few days ago, and now he’s not the same…
Reality check: If babies keep dying of SIDS within days of getting their shots…
Does that match what the studies are suggesting?
If something keeps occurring again and again, shouldn’t that set off an alarm?
Take a look at “Hear this well parents speak out” for a small sampling of testimony.
Why are studies more conclusive than the patients that are walking through your very own doors?
With all respects to your Royal Highness PhD: You claim to be pro-science, but seem to be a total block head when it comes to reality unfolding right in front of your nose…
As long as you keep giving multiple vaccines in a single visit (so you never know which vaccine caused an issue), and keep claiming that vaccine injuries are completely unheard of (so you can keep ignoring any connections)…
How can you ever claim to have the truth?
You’re just a parakeet for what you learned in med school, not a real scientist.
Doomsday: Why won’t CDC do RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed study?
Daas Yochid: Because there’s no way to control for side factors.It is true that there is no PERFECT retrospective study but that does not mean they are not conclusive.
The BIG difference in Lung Cancer between Smokers and Non Smokers in retrospective studies was enough to prove that Smoking causes Lung Cancer.There have been some Retrospective studies on vaxxed vs unvaxxed and they DO show a BIG difference –
autism, allergies, ADHD, asthma and more MUCH higher among Vaccinated Children.The fact that CDC refuses to do such a study – demanded by Congressmen – is in itself Proof that CDC and
Vaccine Industry know that VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM – and many other diseases.CDC and Vaccine Industry are trying to WIPE OUT the Unvaccinated by taking away Personal/Religious Exemptions allowing Unvaccinated to attend school. By Wiping Out the UnVaccinated, the CDC and Vaccine Industry will destroy the IRREFUTABLE Smoking Gun PROOF that Vaccines Cause Autism + much more!!!
The fact that CDC refuses to do such a study – demanded by Congressmen – is in itself Proof that CDC and
Vaccine Industry know that VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM – and many other diseases.The fact that you use the word “proof” incorrectly effectively discredits every logical argument you make.
dbrim
“Experimental research is the ONLY research approach that Demonstrates cause and effect”
So, that isn’t true.
As has been pointed out in BMJ: “As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.”
see: Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials
BMJ 2003; 327 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.327.7429.1459 (Published 18 December 2003)
Cite this as: BMJ 2003;327:1459” and it’s not unethical”
It is.” – there are plenty of parents on the fence, some of whom might be willing to participate in a true experiment (random assignment, one group gets the vaccine, the other does not). ”
1) It would be rwrong to seprive innocent kids of helpful vaccine
2) The pools wouldnt be random since there would be the confounding factor of the smarter group reviving the vaccine, maybe being smarter prevents measles?” to argue “unethical” is itself unethical and unscientific ”
Are you really suggesting that any scientific experiment is automatic acceptable?“we can lay rest to the debate and know the truth with very little effort. Why is this not being done?”
This is the real crux of the issue, it wouldn’t lay anything to rest. Pro-diseasers would keep moving the goal post. Just look at this thread. How man studies were cited , wev’e forgotten that originally they claimed none existed. now oh ok I guess those exist but we want others…
and here is the real kicker. RCT’s do exist too! (though not as many ) Are you telling me that if I provide a Randomized double blinded study of vaccine (Say in Bangladesh) showing the safety and efficacy of said vaccine you will accept it?
Keej123: Studies are one thing, reality is another…
Because FAKE STUDIES are designed to prove whatever the Corporation/CDC PAYING for the study wants!
This is what the Editors of the Most PRESTIGIOUS MEDICAL JOURNALS say! See below:Editor of The New England Journal of Medicine “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as editor of The New England Journal of Medicine”
Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, wrote that “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness”
doomsday
Machla here again
Hi thanks for your your “response”I know all that, but you havent answered my question
“1. Because Recently Vaccinated Children can Spread disease (including measles) so what right do you have to bar vaccine-free kids, when you allow Recently Vaccinated Children to attend school?”Yes of course they can. I know we dont have evidence for this but it feels true I can totally smell the measles emanating off freshly vaccinated children . But this doesn’t answer my question. Granted the pro-vaxxers are fools for not realizing that their kids are so much of a bigger risk, but what right do we have to force them?
for example say some community feels that green hats have a corrupting influence, now we love green hats and we knwo that they are silly to ban us for the color of outr hats. but if they want to keep green hats out, why isnt that there right? evidence or no evidence?“2. Since Vaccines are 97% effective, 3% of the vaccinated children are unknowingly “vaccine-free”. So since
3% of kids are anyway “vaccine-free” what right do you have to bar other “vaccine-free” kids from school?”not me, I’m on your side I, like you am pro-disease . I hope we get all their kids sick the population can use a good thinning .
Though this point makes less sense than your first, at leadt those kids tried (in their view) to keep their kids safe. And again why do they need a “right” to bar us. We arent a protected minority (though we should apply for said protection using american’s with disabilities act given how brain damaged we are) say they just plain don’t like us, if my neighbor doesnt like me, I cant force him to invite me into his home. why should we force them to invite us into their schools?“3. …
Same as #2thanks for taking the time, keep up the good fight.
looking forward to actual answers, if possibleMachla
debrim: we can lay rest to the debate and know the truth with very little effort. Why is this not being done?
Debrim, the CDC and Vaccine Industry KNOW that Vaccines cause Autism and many other diseases. Not only does Pharmaceutical Companies make Billions on FORCED (mandated) Vaccines, they make TRILLIONS on selling drugs (like Ritalin, Insulin, Anti-Seizure Meds) to all the SICK Children they CREATED!
If the Truth would come out that Vaccines cause Autism, not only would Pharmaceutical Companies and US Government have to pay TRILLIONS $$$ for Vaccine Injuries, the Head of CDC and Vaccine Industry would go to JAIL!
So they make Fraudulent studies – I have given many examples of HOW these studies are Fraudulent. And they make up Excuses why there can’t be a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study: “It’s Unethical to deprive children of Vaccines”. If you say so Do a RETROSPECTIVE Study, they say those are not perfect because there might be other factors…blah…blah…blah.. It was RETROSPECTIVE Studies on Smoker vs NON Smoker that proved conclusively that Smoking causes Cancer – which for DECADES the Tobacco Industry LIED that it didn’t! And they hired Scientists to deceive the public that smoking does not cause Cancer!
The Pro Vaxxers on this thread also LIED that there WERE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies and I PROVED that those studies were NOT Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed as the Pro Vaxxers claimed.
The TRUTH will destroy US Government and Pharmaceutical Companies so it is being COVERED UP.
They want to ELIMINATE all UNVACCINATED in order to hide the truth forever!Once again, interesting how Dooms is so engrossed in labeling me as a liar. Yet the lie was that I responded to dooms post that the studies that were presented were vaccinated vs unvaccinated, I still stand by that.
It is children that were vaccinated with the MMR vaccine, vs children that were not.
I guess this is a big deal for dooms, but the fact still remains that there has been no link between MMR vaccine and autism.
This was the discussion at the time regardless of how dooms wants to twist this.
In no way was I am implying that these studies were for other vaccines, autism was ONLY blamed (by Wakefield) on the MMR vaccine. this was a direct response to that.
Now to your other question, yes there have been numerous studies on diseases that have increased recently, RETROSPECTIVE studies that clearly show no link between vaccines and these diseases.
Dooms,
I would like to copy and paste my original post here, lets who is lying and who is twisting the truth.
“Dooms,
“2Scents – explain to my WHY CDC refuses to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study?”
There are many explanations why it is not ethical not to vaccinate a group of people just for the purpose of a study, however the data is pretty clear, See below. (of course you only accept made up and twisted data that supports your theory, not true data).
JAMA 2275444
Conclusions and Relevance: In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.”:
This was my first post about the JAMA study, Does it seem like I am attempting to imply that the study was not focused on the MMR?, actually I clearly write that this is about the MMR!
You then asked if this was vaxxed vs unvaxxed, the answer was in the affirmative, this was the case, oh.. if it is not ALL vaccines then its a lie, not sure what you are trying to gain by becoming too complicated and deviating from the actual facts. Oh, you are an ‘alternative person’..
You to call someone a liar and then use this as part of an argument, just exposes you for who you are. As I noted multiple times you are a fraud and twist bits and pieces to get your point across.You are no better than the original anti-vaxxers in the 1800s that believed in all crazy stuff, those that were against the germ theory and believed that disease originates in the mind, those that believed that the vaccines are just a way to murder the masses. Those were all ignoramuses and would probably be institutionalized today based on their ridiculous beliefs, you are no better.
Dooms.
Your making it very easy, you are just going in circles this has been discussed earlier in this very thread, yet you seem to not get it.
“Because FAKE STUDIES are designed to prove whatever the Corporation/CDC PAYING for the study wants!
This is what the Editors of the Most PRESTIGIOUS MEDICAL JOURNALS say! See below:Editor of The New England Journal of Medicine “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as editor of The New England Journal of Medicine”
Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, wrote that “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness”
Actually, if you read the article, R. Horton actually writes that the science has greatly improved we now need to implement the updated and clean up old practices.
The first paragraph (you do not even attribute it to the writer, seems like you didnt fully select all when you copy/pasted).
Below is what has been written about this earlier.
“a. Dr. Marcia Angell, to use this as an argument against vaccines is silly, she is a big believer in science, in the very same claim against published data she also makes the claim that alternative medicine has gained popularity yet, in reality, we should not acknowledge them, as only pure science should play a role, her concern was that we no longer use pure science in medicine to the extent that we should use.”
In the future, it would be appreciated if you actually read the articles in its entirety rather than just posting snippets that seem to further your agenda.
These people were all for science, they would discard anectodal stories in a heartbeat, they just wanted science to be even better.
Studies are one thing, reality is another…
– We practice evidence based medicine, you would need studies to know the reality.Parents are coming in to our own Doctors immediately after vaccines, with issues that never occurred before.
– You know that how?They’re being told that those issues are normal occurrences and have no relation to vaccines, based on these studies that you so stubbornly cling to…
– You know that how?(If I can address my doctor here:)
Reality check: Do the experiences of your own patients match the picture painted by all these studies?
– Yes they do.Reality check: If parents keep telling you that this child was perfectly normal a few days ago, and now he’s not the same…
– They do not say that.Reality check: If babies keep dying of SIDS within days of getting their shots…
– babies are not dying, there has been a significant reduction in SIDS (and all postneonatal mortalities), Also this is a lie, you do not have access to the SIDS cases and their records, the ones that do have not found a correlation.Does that match what the studies are suggesting?
– Yes.If something keeps occurring again and again, shouldn’t that set off an alarm?
– If being the keyword.Take a look at “Hear this well parents speak out” for a small sampling of testimony.
Why are studies more conclusive than the patients that are walking through your very own doors?
– It is not.With all respects to your Royal Highness PhD: You claim to be pro-science, but seem to be a total block head when it comes to reality unfolding right in front of your nose…
– Says the one who makes up reality.As long as you keep giving multiple vaccines in a single visit (so you never know which vaccine caused an issue), and keep claiming that vaccine injuries are completely unheard of (so you can keep ignoring any connections)…
– Connections to what?How can you ever claim to have the truth?
– why not? You obviously have an agenda here, you despise medicine, evidence-based medicine that’s your thing, why are you accusing others of lying there has to be at least a number of doctors that are sincere?You’re just a parakeet for what you learned in med school, not a real scientist.
– Ok, They do teach the science of medicine which you do not believe in, you are parakeet of ‘alternative’ people vs doctors that have spent years earning a degree in medicine, evidence based medicine.2cents: you are parakeet of ‘alternative’ people vs doctors that have spent years earning a degree in medicine, evidence based medicine.
There are many real Medical Doctors and real Scientists who have done research and studies and concluded
that Vaccines are DANGEROUS, cause Autism and many other chronic illnesses.There are many real Medical Doctors and real Scientists who have done research and studies and concluded
that Vaccines are DANGEROUS, cause Autism and many other chronic illnesses.The ones who have claimed to do real research are frauds.
The rest are a tiny minority and are naive like you.
How Government lies about the term “Unvaccinated”
“One hundred and eighty kids — this really hit me hard as the father of three kids — died last year from the flu. And the majority of them were unvaccinated,” said US Surgeon General Dr. Jerome M. Adams. speaking at a news conference hosted by the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases on Thursday. “Flu vaccinations save lives.”
The 180 children who died of flu were ALL Vaccinated. A Minority of the children who died of the Flu,
GOT THE FLU VACCINE! The rest were all vaccinated but did NOT get the Flu vaccines so they are Fraudulently labeled “Unvaccinated”. Vaccination weakens the immune system, making one more likely to get the Flu, and more likely to die from the Flu.They weren’t vaccinated for the flu.
There is no evidence that vaccination causes health problems.
The only evidence seems to indicate the opposite.
Daas Yochid: There is no evidence that vaccination causes health problems. The only evidence seems to indicate the opposite.
Since the CDC TRIPLED the Vaccine schedule around 1990, Autism went from 1:10,000 to 1:50 today!
1:6 children are learning disabled
1:6 children are allergic
1:13 children have asthma
1:15 children have ADHD
1:5 teens had episode of mental illness
1:8 children have IBS
1:50 children have autism
1:100 children have epilepsy
1:250 children have tourettes syndrome
1:400 children have diabetes
1:775 babies die of SIDS
1:1,000 children have Celiac Disease
1:5,560 children have CANCER
168 Deaths following vaccines reported to VAERS every year.
ZERO deaths from Measles (in USA).That’s all been debunked.
Has anyone else noticed doomsday’s flim-flam? S/he keeps demanding a retrospective study of vaxxed vs unvaxxed children, but keeps shifting the definitions. If a child has received even one vaxx, no matter what it is, s/he insists it can’t be included in the unvaxxed set, but if you try including it in the vaxxed set s/he’ll complain too. S/he’s never said how many shots a kid must have had to be included in the vaxxed set, but however many it is, these must be contrasted to those with no shots at all.
S/he also completely ignores the fact that the MMR vaccine is the only one suspected of causing autism, so the only logical structure for a study is those who got it v those who didn’t. Which has been done, but s/he rejects it because the unvaxxed set did get other shots, ones that are not</me> suspected, even by anti-vaxxers, of causing autism.
A vaxxed vs unvaxxed study is:
Vaccinateded per CDC Schedule vs 100% UnVaccinated
Why won’t CDC do the Retrospective Study as had been requested by Congressmen???
Keej123: Studies are one thing, reality is another
As you can see Keej123, ProVaxxers don’t accept any “reality” that contradicts their Religion of Vaccines.
Who are you going to believe Studies (that were proven Fraudulent) or your lying eyes? LOL!Millhouse: S/he also completely ignores the fact that the MMR vaccine is the only one suspected of causing autism,
WRONG! ALL vaccines are suspected of causing autism. Thimerosal and aluminum are two of the ingredients being linked to autism and MMR never contained Thimerosal. But MMR vax contains LIVE Measles Virus and the
Measles Virus can cause Encephalitis leading to Autism. But other vaccines contain other dangers that can also
lead to autism.“Vaccination weakens the immune system, making one more likely to get the Flu, and more likely to die from the Flu.”
Just so I understand this so in people who have already revived some vaccines, who now have a weakened immune system, vaccines ARE helpful?
Doomsday
“Who are you going to believe Studies (that were proven Fraudulent) or your lying eyes? ”
Why, studies of course!
See I knew you’d come around. My eyes tell me that the world is flat. I can see it for myself! yet wiht ha little research I know that my eyes are deceiving me, they are in fact lying. What we see isnt always so.Wait, you believe the world is flat, don’t you?
Millhouse: S/he also completely ignores the fact that the MMR vaccine is the only one suspected of causing autism
WRONG again, Millhouse!
ALL Vaccines are linked to Autism. Thimerosal is linked to Autism and MMR never had Thimerosal.
Aluminum is also in Vaccines and linked to Autism.Dooms,
“Why won’t CDC do the Retrospective Study as had been requested by Congressmen???”
You mentioned this earlier, and shown to be incorrect. Sonwhy bring this up again?
Just so I understand this so in people who have already revived some vaccines, who now have a weakened immune system, vaccines ARE helpful?
I asked this earlier. I’m still waiting for a response.
Dooms,
A. Which children vaccines contain Thermisol?
B. MMR vaccine is the one that was blamed for autism, hence the reason for the studies disproving the made up claim.
C. Children that did not receive the MMR vaccine are not in line with the CDCs schedule, yet there has been no chnage in autism rates.
D. If Measles causes encephalitis, why is the wild measles better than the vaccine?
E. Below is from The Encephalitis Society:
Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine is a very effective way to prevent against these diseases. All three of these infections are important causes of encephalitis, and before MMR vaccine was introduced all three infections were common in the UK.
The vaccine is unequivocally safer than letting children catch the diseases. In a study carried out in Finland between 1982 and 1986 of over half of million children, it was found that the incidence of encephalitis in the three months following a MMR vaccination was no different to the overall incidence. The example below compares the risk of measles with the risk of MMR vaccine.
Measles
1-3 in 1,000 children contracting measles will develop encephalitis concurrent with the measles infection. 10–15% of those children will die and a further 25% will be left with permanent neurological damage.
1 in 1,000 children with measles will develop post-infectious encephalitis.
1 in 25,000 of children (1 in 5,500 children if they are under 1) with measles will develop subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) which has a fatal (death) outcome.
1-2 in 1.000.000 children who had vaccination will develop encephalitis from the vaccination which is less than the incidence of all types of encephalitis.A vaxxed vs unvaxxed study is:
Vaccinateded per CDC Schedule vs 100% UnVaccinated
That’s ridiculous. Though since your entire position is ridiculous, what’s one more thing? It’s a moving goalpost. The CDC schedule changes regularly. So if they did such a study ten years ago you’d say it was no longer valid, and if they do it now you’ll say it’s invalid as soon as the schedule changes.
But the whole premise is stupid, because it’s impossible that “vaccination” as a general concept could damage anyone. Any damage must be done by some individual vaccine, so it only makes sense to test that specific vaccine for whatever harm it is that it’s alleged to be doing.
A. Some Child Vaccines labeled “Thimerosal Free” actually contain 1 mcg of Thimerosal. It is against the LAW for a substance to be labeled “X-Free” to contain ANY “trace amounts” of X But FDA allows Vaccine Makers to break
this Law. Also, Children and Pregnant women are allowed to be given Flu Vaccines containing 25 mcg Thimerosal.B. MMR vaccine is the one that was blamed for autism – Wrong again. Thimerosal and Aluminum are ALSO blamed for Autism and MMR NEVER CONTAINED THIMEROSAL!
C. Children that did not receive the MMR vaccine are not in line with the CDCs schedule, yet there has been no change in autism rates. I found papers that debunked those studies, showing that MMR did increase autism rate vs Vaccinated with no MMR. But MMR is not the ONLY vaccine associated with autism.
D. If Measles causes encephalitis, why is the wild measles better than the vaccine?
A better question is if MMR can cause encephalitis, why is MMR better than Measles?
E: Re: Safety of Vaccines vs Measles: Since CDC tripled Vaccine Schedule around 1990:
1:6 children are learning disabled
1:6 children are allergic
1:13 children have asthma
1:15 children have ADHD
1:5 teens had episode of mental illness
1:8 children have IBS
1:50 children have autism
1:100 children have epilepsy
1:250 children have tourettes syndrome
1:400 children have diabetes
1:775 babies die of SIDS
1:1,000 children have Celiac Disease
1:5,560 children have CANCER
168 Deaths following vaccines reported to VAERS every year.
ZERO deaths from Measles (in USA).Vaccines are MORE DANGEROUS then Measles!
Why won’t CDC do the Retrospective Study as had been requested by Congressmen???
Let’s get one thing off the table, because you keep dragging it up. The fact that one of the nutcases who make stupid demands from the CDC happens to be a congressman is irrelevant. Why the **** should the CDC do something just because one congressman demands it? Since when does getting elected to Congress give someone a right to make demands of the CDC?
If Congress asked for a study it would be done. In fact Congress could simply pass a bill requiring it, and the CDC would have no choice. But despite your earlier lie, Congress never made such a request, let alone a demand. So the CDC had no reason to do it.
DaasYochid, Vaccines are risky and can damage your health – especially if you already have a weakened
immune system. That is why the immunocompromised cannot be vaccinated.Well since Pharmaceutical Industry is the biggest Briber of Congress, Congress will never force CDC to
do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study.But that does NOT take the issue off the table. The fact that CDC refuses to do such a study is evidence
that CDC and Pharmaceutical Companies KNOW that such a study would PROVE that Vaccines cause
Autism, ADHD, allergies, asthma, diabetes, epilepsy etc.There were some Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed studies that show that UNvaccinated children are FAR, FAR
healthier then Vaccinated Children!
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