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This is not to tell you not to vaccinate, just to give you a little bit of a bigger picture on what it means to vaccinate.
Most of these sources are taken from the studies compiled by Neil Z. Miller, medical research journalist .Study #1
JAMA Pediatr 2013 Mar 1, 167(3): 274-81:
A population-based cohort study of under-vaccination in 8 managed care organization across the US, 300,000 healthcare records were studied. Nearly half of the children were under-vaccinated.
Under-vaccinated children had significantly lower rates of ER visitsUnder-vaccinated children had significantly lower rates of ER visits
Maybe their parents don’t let them cross the street without wearing a helmet.
Please tell me nobody is stupid enough to think that inferences can be made by such a crazy correlation!
First of all, ER probably have more germs in them than any other part of the hospital because nobody knows what the people in the waiting room are walking in with. There are lots of people who avoid ERs for that, and aa hundred other reasons.
Second, i have a $250 co pay for the er, as opposed to $20 for my doctor, whereas some have no insurance and *have* to use the er.
I think under vaccinated children also smell more flowers. Maybe thats what is keeping them out of the er.Maybe parents who don’t care enough to get vaccinations are less inclined to take their children to a doctor for any reason. If someone distrusts doctors in general, they are not likely to take a sick (as opposed to injured) child to the ER. Indeed, one can suggest that two should correlate since the core factor is distrust of standard medicine.
Death rates might be more interesting since statistics for child mortality aren’t directly a function of parent attitudes.
don’t tell me you trust studies
Please we know the truth, that is just a conspiracy to spread measles so they can line the pockets by spreading diseases thus making big pharma lots of money
I cant believe you fell for it! Don’t you see it is big pharma 2.0 competing with regular big pharma
OF course you got the study wrong but you don’t care about that, as you clearly didint read it. For example THAT SAME STUDY also showed “Overall, undervaccinated children had higher inpatient admission rates than age-appropriately vaccinated children”
now of course deciding to go to the ER is a decision made by parents, the decision to admit depends on how sick the child is. So if any conclusion can be drawn from the study, (other than the study’s vague conclusions of “Rates of undervaccination, specific patterns of under-vaccination, and health care utilization rates.”)Is that parents of properly vaccinated children care more (worry more?) about their children, thus rush to ER quicker. which isnt really a chidush at this point.
And that undervaccinated children get admitted mote since they are more likely to get sickI know I know big pharma funded half of the study, so you only accept half. spare me.
This study actually supports my theory that anti-vaxxers are afraid of doctors and needles.
😂😂😂😂😂
So would you support intentionally infecting children with measles?
“Under-vaccinated children had significantly lower rates of ER visits….
”Maybe because they die sooner….
truthishidden – So what was written on the death certificate? I highly doubt it was the actual virus.
If I could go back and prevent myself from getting chicken pox, I might.
Do you know what? Even if every one of your studies leads to the conclusions you are claiming they lead to it would still mean that it’s imperative to vaccinate. Because all those studies show is that there may be some side effects of immunizing. But on the other hand, it is a fact that not immunizing can not only lead to horrible permanent damage or death due to measles or whooping cough. And not only in the people who refuse to vaccinate but also in the 5% of people who vaccinated whose bodies didn’t respond to the vaccine, to the infants who are too young to get the shot, to the elderly with compromised immune systems, to people who nebech are undergoing chemo therapy.
Let’s do this in some visual, yeah? Imagine the studies are all fine and good, this would be the world today. “O”
is someone who is vaccinated, “o” is someone without the vaccine either by choice or medical necessity (infants, immune compromised, egg allergies, etc). Let’s say that’s %5 of people.OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
So you say there are adverse side affects to vaccination, ok, let’s limit that to side affects that cause lasting damage and/or death. We’ll mark them as “X” and say it happens to 0.5% of people which is way higher than what the people opposed to vaccination claim it is.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
Really a tragedy. OK, now let’s say that instead of 95% of people vaccinating, it’s more like 70%. Then our population would look something like this:
OOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOoo
That “X” disappeared! Yay! Less vaccinations means less likelihood of someone getting hurt from one!
Now let’s take measles as a factor. According to the CDC, measles can cause death 0.15% of the time and other lasting damage about 1% of the time. Let’s go with our original vaccination rates and assume that only unimmunized people will get the disease. They will be denoted as “M” in this chart. Again, a large “X” is someone damaged from a vaccine, but we’ll add a small “x” for someone damaged from measles.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOOXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
One person got measles, recovered, and only able to pass it on to one person. Let’s see how that plays out in a less vaccinated population:
OOOOoOOOMxOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOMMOOOOoOOOooOOOOoOOOMxOOOOoOOOoo
Far more people received the virus because it is more likely to spread. So no one was damaged by the vaccines, but we have two people with severe issues emanated from the measles virus.
According to these numbers, an unvaccinated population is more than twice as likely to see permanent injury or other lasting damage than an immunized one.
Any kashes?
Aside from my opinions about vaccination, I remain perplexed by the dialogue here. nearly all studies anyone cites are correlational, and the drive to interpret these relationships as causal is strong but pathological. It is recognized that 99.9% of all people that die in United States have eaten pickles? Is there a relationship? Is correlational data indicative of anything? It is there support for a hypothesis of a causal relationship?
It boils down to a simple thing. Data against vaxxing is poor, to a great degree unscientific, and is only, at best, correlational. One can designate a conclusion beforehand, then interpret data to fit that agenda, and voila, we have “studies” to support our position. Sorry, but that is “junk science”. I suggest we revisit the scientific method, and then examine studies to see what they mean.
I spent time writing that comment, but it got borked because capital and lowercase show up the same. Here it is again:
Do you know what? Even if every one of your studies leads to the conclusions you are claiming they lead to it would still mean that it’s imperative to vaccinate. Because all those studies show is that there may be some side effects of immunizing. But on the other hand, it is a fact that not immunizing can not only lead to horrible permanent damage or death due to measles or whooping cough. And not only in the people who refuse to vaccinate but also in the 5% of people who vaccinated whose bodies didn’t respond to the vaccine, to the infants who are too young to get the shot, to the elderly with compromised immune systems, to people who nebech are undergoing chemo therapy.
Let’s do this in some visual, yeah? Imagine the studies are all fine and good, this would be the world today. “O”
is someone who is vaccinated, “u” is someone without the vaccine either by choice or medical necessity (infants, immune compromised, egg allergies, etc). Let’s say that’s %5 of people.OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOu
So you say there are adverse side affects to vaccination, ok, let’s limit that to side affects that cause lasting damage and/or death. We’ll mark them as “D” and say it happens to 0.5% of people which is way higher than what the people opposed to vaccination claim it is.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOODOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOu
Really a tragedy. OK, now let’s say that instead of 95% of people vaccinating, it’s more like 70%. Then our population would look something like this:
OOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuu
That “X” disappeared! Yay! Less vaccinations means less likelihood of someone getting hurt from one!
Now let’s take measles as a factor. According to the CDC, measles can cause death 0.15% of the time and other lasting damage about 1% of the time. Let’s go with our original vaccination rates and assume that only unimmunized people will get the disease. They will be denoted as “M” in this chart. Again, a large “D” is someone damaged from a vaccine, but we’ll add a small “x” for someone damaged from measles.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOODOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOuOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOu
One person got measles, recovered, and only able to pass it on to one person who also recovered. Let’s see how that plays out in a less vaccinated population:
OOOOuOOOMxOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOMMOOOOuOOOuuOOOOuOOOMxOOOOuOOOuu
Far more people received the virus because it is more likely to spread. So no one was damaged by the vaccines, but we have two people with severe issues emanated from the measles virus.
According to these numbers, an unvaccinated population is more than twice as likely to see permanent injury or other lasting damage than an immunized one.
Any kashes?
ANY KASHES?
Yes. Why do you bother? Truthishidden clearly has no intention of being rational.
Probably a side effect of measles.
At least Truthishidden admits that this is a debate between people who are pro disease and people who are anti disease.
Vaccination is like global warming and any other critical policy issue linked to science, where there will always be some research and studies that seemingly deviate from the vast consensus of scientific belief. Governments make policy based on the consensus of the best available science and do not defer critically needed actions because a small number of dissenters raise doubts. If that was the case, nothing would ever be done since there is no policy that is totally “risk-free”.
truthishidden – “Health: probably SIDS, it was probably only confirmed as a death from a vaccine long after the death certificate was done.”
So who confirmed it? And how long afterwards?
@RebbYidd23
That’s another issue. People keep trying to frame this as a “debate” or “science machlokes”. It’s nothing of the sort! There’s literally no debate, there are just normal people and people who reject hard facts and logic.
L’Havdil, if I would say that in Halacha there’s a debate whether the Chachomim are correct and their psak stands forever, or to go like Reform and the Torah (C”V) needs to be “reexamined” I would be reamed over hot coals, banned from this site, and called a kofer. It’s the same thing with this fantasy of there being a “vaccine safety debate”.
You would be wrong to say that there was such a debate in halacha, but if people were debating it, such a debate would exist.
If vaccinated people spread the disease, that should make you pro vax.
So same scare tactic, different angle.
Now it is the SIDS that are caused by vaccines, All you have written is that you have read that SIDS is ‘probably’ due to vaccines. So from scaring people about autism, you add death, you should really be ashamed of yourself for using these unfortunate cases that have nothing to do with vaccinations to further your cause.
truthishidden –”However, the parents would later have to prove to VAERS that it was the vaccine that caused the death.”
Like I already posted – to win in court – you don’t have to prove anything.
If they actually proved it, post the whole Judgement from the Court.Vaccine court records are SEALED and may not be shared or publicized. They don’t want the world knowing which damages were most definitely caused by vaccines- including almost 100 autistic cases in recent years (except autism is not allowed to be mentioned it’s taboo, they just mention all the other problems )
Go look up the famous case of Hannah Poling, daughter of a neurologist who became autistic after getting too many vaccines in one day.
When will all of you wake up? We have a new set of diseases that previous generations never had. We have CHRONIC illness and auto immune issues. We have increasing allergies autism ,adhd ,auto immune disorders of every kind, and increasing proof every day that this is all caused by the well intentioned but “unavoidably unsafe” (words of Supreme Court justice sotomayer) vaccines they insist on poking into our most vulnerable population in ever increasing numbers.Vaccine court has already shelled out 4B, and they are notoriously difficult. Anything that occurs after vaccination is “coincidence” and they Are constantly finding new ways to exclude illnesses caused by vaccines. And when you poison , yes, poison, an infant repeatedly without knowing the child’s ability to process those toxins or their immune ability to deal with the pathogens injected, you are setting up some children for real serious damage. I think the only reason that we as a nation do not see the damage clearly is because they poison them so darn young. Straight out of the womb, in the hospital, they’re already injecting them to protect them from an STD. I wish I was joking. We will never know if our children would have been smarter, healthier, or not had a disability god forbid. Because we poison them before they have any abilities we can measure. So probably most of the damage goes undetected. so hurrah no measles- but we have 101 other problems!!
“Unavoidably safe” is a legal term which makes no judgement as to how safe or unsafe vaccines are, or the risks compared to the benefits.
No, unavoidably unsafe means that there are inevitably some who will be harmed from vaccines. That’s why there is a vaccine injury compensation court created to begin with. And now there is vaers which is just a reporting system. So if even the government concedes there are people who can be harmed, major damage or death, why can’t it be logical to assume that others are harmed in mild way,Iike a lifelong auto immune illness or loss of ten IQ points.
No, unavoidably unsafe means that there are inevitably some who will be harmed from vaccines. That’s why there is a vaccine injury compensation court created to begin with.
Legally, unavoidably safe means they’re not liable. The compensation court is there for the avoidable cases, meaning some specific defect in the production of the vaccine.
You’ve got to stop using terms fed to you by your fellow anti vax cultists which are being misunderstood and misapplied.
To add to what DY said, you also need to stop making up reasons as to why certain stuff were done.
While you are free to accept conspiracy theories as to why there is a vaccine court, don’t be perplexed when the rest of the world just doesn’t buy it.
None of the court cases were for so called “defects” in the product. Nowadays we don’t hear about “bad batches” although it has happened. They are for standard vaccines given to normal children or even adults which resulted in serious consequences
And for the record, those so called studies that supposedly demonstrated no connection between autism and vaccines?? It was only involving ONE vaccine (MMR) or ONE ingredient (Mercury) to date there have been no major study on the impact of dozens of vaccines , for example comparing a population of vaccinated vs unvaccinated. It’s the study we’re all waiting for. They won’t do it because it’s “unethical” to deprive children of vaccines. I’m sure we can find volunteers
You can explain all you want. When a one year old gets ill immediately after an MMR and a week later is diagnosed with kidney failure, doctor says coincidental. When a five year old gets some overdue vaccines and stops talking and eventually is diagnosed with autism, conincidence. I know both of those people. And both of their parents say it occurred because of the vaccine. But if doctors refuse to see the truth glaring at them, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
You can explain all you want. When a one year old gets ill immediately after an MMR and a week later is diagnosed with kidney failure, doctor says coincidental. When a five year old gets some overdue vaccines and stops talking and eventually is diagnosed with autism, conincidence. I know both of those people. And both of their parents say it occurred because of the vaccine. But if doctors refuse to see the truth glaring at them, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
Wait, so you’re saying that vaccines caused illnesses TWICE?!
Sounds like science to me!
2cents, why don’t YOU tell me why there is a vaccine court, then??? Apparently vaccines are harmless…
There are tens of thousands of stories just like those. Those are just my own personal examples. In this so called religious “cult” are mothers whose infant babies started seizing immediately after vaccine. Babies who got high fever and died in their sleep two nights later. Moms who miscarried (of course coincidence) two days after a flu shot. (FYI the 2011 flu season when US recommended two flu shots for wine flu? Rates of miscarriage for 2 shots was over seven fold) . Moms who had normal walking talking babies who suddenly wouldn’t make eye contact and stopped talking. Of course, they’re all delusional and looking for scapegoats.
Of course, they’re all delusional and looking for scapegoats.
I didn’t say that. I don’t blame these people for thinking the way they do.
I’m just saying that it’s not how science works.
All of the things you’re saying are absolutely possible. Though in the grand scheme of things, taking all factors into consideration, they’re highly unlikely.
Sariray: You can bring down a gazillion anecdotal stories and they will have the same significance…..correlation does not mean causality and you and your denial chevrah will have the same irrelevance as you historically have had. The best science today says NO Causality and thats how public policy will be made until these families provide more than just “their feelings’. I feel really bad for their suffering but taking actions that would impose such suffering on 10x as many others makes no sense.
Here are some quotes from a N.Y. Times article. The case turned on the proper interpretation of a provision of the law that bars ordinary lawsuits “if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.”
Justice Scalia acknowledged that “Congress could have more tersely and more clearly pre-empted design-defect claims.” But he said the meaning of the passage was not in doubt. “If a manufacturer could be held liable for failure to use a different design,” Justice Scalia wrote, “the word ‘unavoidable’ would do no work.”……
Justice Sotomayor, joined by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, said the majority opinion “disturbs the careful balance Congress struck between compensating vaccine-injured children and stabilizing the childhood vaccine market.”
Justice Sotomayor said she understood the word “unavoidable” differently in the context of the law than Justice Scalia did. She said it indicated that Congress must “have intended a vaccine manufacturer to demonstrate in each civil action that the particular side effects of a vaccine’s design were ‘unavoidable.’ ”….
The effect of Tuesday’s decision, Justice Sotomayor continued, was to leave “a regulatory vacuum in which no one ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements when designing or distributing their products.”
In a final footnote, Justice Sotomayor wrote that a concern about an asserted link “between certain vaccines and autism spectrum disorders” appeared to “underlie the majority and concurring opinions in this case.”Apparently even Supreme Court justices argue over the definition
I know exactly how science works . The people with the millions and billions pay scientists to run the study exactly how they want, to prove exactly what they want. The end.
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