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Joseph,
If a baby were born on Shabbos in the 8th month of pregnancy, will you abide by the Shulchan Aruch’s ruling? Or will you realize that the situation has changed and act accordingly.
Logically, if someone says do X because of Y, that means when Y is not the case, you don’t have to do X.
Wolfish,
It is still YOUR contention. If this Mishna Brura was no longer applicable, a Psak Din is in order. You are lacking that.
I do agree that for some special situations (i.e. kiruv, a child heading OTD – with a Rav’s guidance) sometimes we put somethings aside to maintain the more important matters.
truthsharer,
There are (and I can’t quote them at the moment) Piskei Din dealing with that situation nowadays. So like I said, get a Psak Din and we can talk.
I do agree that for kiruv sometimes we put somethings aside to maintain the more important matters.
So, considering the fact that I don’t know the OP and his kid and (I’m assuming) you don’t either – do you agree that there is a reasonable possibility that it might be a good idea to just “lay off” the jacket/hat issue*?
The Wolf
(*Of course, only the OP can decide if that is reasonable in the particular situation he experiences in his household. We’re just speaking in general terms.)
Joseph,
If it’s a clear cut halacha why did the MB need to include the scenario? He could have just written, “You need to wear a hat to daven.”
Instead, he wrote “in our days we meet royalty with a hat, so too, we wear a hat to daven.”
That means that in our days where we specifically DON’T wear a hat, you don’t need to (or even, shouldn’t, if you want) wear a hat to daven.
Furthermore,
I do agree that for kiruv sometimes we put somethings aside to maintain the more important matters.means that it’s not halacha because you don’t just change halacha for kiruv purposes.Joseph,
Do your daughters cover their elbows and knees starting from the age of 3? (It says so in the mishne berurah.) Just wondering if you’re being consistent here. Secondly, you quoted the M”B as saying one is required a hat and jacket, whereas the M”B never mentions a jacket, so how can we say any of your sevaros have credence? You started off with a falsehood.
Today, when people don’t wear hats but do wear ties, it is probably more of an inyan to wear a tie than a hat by davening. Look at the pictures of the world leaders. That is how today’s royalty dresses- jackets and ties, no hats. That said, when the whole Jewish world wears hats, one should probably wear one.
As for hats/ jackets by bentching, I believe the Be’er heitev says ituf is only noheig in Eretz Yisroel due to kavod hashechina.
Wolfish, There is no way anyone here can advise the OP the appropriate course of action. That is something between him and his spiritual advisor.
BTW even today if you were to visit the Oval Office or the Queen of England you would wear a jacket (one would certainly hope.) So [putting hats aside for the moment] what is the heter for this missing jackets that is unfortunately so prevalent in some shuls??
BTW even today if you were to visit the Oval Office or the Queen of England you would wear a jacket (one would certainly hope.) So [putting hats aside for the moment] what is the heter for this missing jackets that is unfortunately so prevalent in some shuls??
You’re right. I also believe that the vast majority of us would wear ties too. Do you always wear a tie for davening?
The Wolf
Wolfish: Is a tie necessarily the cloth of the Jew? A jacket is. A hat is.
rescue: Yes about age 3. The MB doesn’t either say you need to wear a shirt by davening (AFAIK).
“BTW even today if you were to visit the Oval Office or the Queen of England you would wear a jacket (one would certainly hope.) ” And you should, according to protocol, remove your hat.
One thing is abundantly clear (I hope) when visiting the oval office/royalty. One would SHUT OFF THEIR CELL PHONE. Please do so when entering shul.
truthsharer: The protocol for visiting the Melech Malchei HaMelochim is different.
Joseph, not according to the MB you keep citing.
Wolfish: Is a tie necessarily the cloth of the Jew? A jacket is. A hat is.
Huh? Who said it has anything about it being the “cloth of a Jew?” You said that since I would wear a jacket to see the President, I should by davening. I agreed with you that, in theory, you’re probably right. But the same would apply to a tie as well. It has nothing to do with being “the cloth of a Jew” (whatever the heck that means). It has to do with showing (at least) equal respect to HKBH as you would for an important person.
But you know what? We don’t do this anyway? No one puts on their finest every time they daven. So, obviously, we don’t completely hold by this MB anyway. If we did, we’d all wear our finest every time we davened.
The Wolf
you are absolutely right, a shirt is not required by davening. One may wear a tunic or any other coverings that cover the required body parts as discussed in the halachic literature. Additionaly, whereas some presidents may have required a jacket in the oval office, most did not. Those that work closely with the president everyday do not necessarily put on a jacket when interacting with the president. Kal Va’chomer us, who are bnei bayit with HKB”H.
rescue37, there’s a difference between someone working with the President and someone visiting the President.
Wolfish: Have you so quickly forgotten out discussion of “lo shinu es malbushayhen”? Of course there is a concept of how Jews dress. And, yes, it is different than the Nations.
EDITED
truthsharer,
you are right, but since tefilah is called avodah, we are therefore working.
Wolfish: Have you so quickly forgotten out discussion of “lo shinu es malbushayhen”?
So, is it your contention that ties are assur? I asked you that in a different thread and I don’t believe I got an answer.
And, regardless of your answer to that question, you still did not address the issue I raised. If the idea is that we should show HKBH (at least) as much honor as we would show the President, then why don’t you (or anyone else) dress up in your finest every time you daven?
The Wolf
shkotzim
Lastly, I find this term offensive when used to refer to non-Jews. I know plenty of non-Jews who are finer people than some Jews I know and are definitely not disgusting in any manner.
Please do not use it unless referring to actual insects and rodents.
Thank you,
The Wolf
Wolfish:
My point is hats and jackets are the cloth of the Jew. Ties are not in the same category.
My point is hats and jackets are the cloth of the Jew. Ties are not in the same category.
Forget ties for the moment. Do you dress in your finest every time you daven? If the idea is that we should show HKBH (at least) as much honor as we would show the President, then why don’t you (or anyone else) dress up in your finest every time you daven?
The Wolf
Joseph,
[My point is hats and jackets are the cloth of the Jew. Ties are not in the same category]
I highly doubt the the Mechaber, the Ben Ish chai, Rav Ovadya Yosef etc and even the Chofetz Chaim would agree with you. The Chofetz Chaim did not wear a borsalino or a black hat for that matter. And please don’t try to tell me that by hat you meant any type of hat.
Wolfish: If you violate A, it does not give you license to violate B.
Yes rescue, I meant head covering (double).
You mean the goofy hats with the long floppy ears that flap when pulled by a string that you can buy in the disney store, dont count?
Wolfish: If you violate A, it does not give you license to violate B.
Huh? Please elaborate.
The Wolf
Wolf,
Joseph is being consistent. He feels that one who eats pork can still be a spokesperson against Chillul Shabbos.
Spokesperson? When do you lib out squeak?
I never said spokesman.
Oh, that’s right – Spokesman.
We wouldn’t want to have taaruvos at a demonstration – that would be worse than a shabbos meal 😉
Do not struggle with a hat and a jacket. Follow a similar situation in Chelm. Dress up in a polyester rekkel and a shtreimel for few weeks and afterwards you will be thrilled to wear a “hat and jacket” attire!
We don’t wear the jacket they wore in Poland or in medieval Germany. We dress in what is today considered kavod. This includes a jacket and tie, since this is what we today perceive as kavod. In Afghanistan it would mean wearing a turban, but we’re not in Afghanistan.
I have a chvrusa like that. You present a rishon who say x is okay because it is natural. I tried to make the point that if x is b’yedai adam it is not ok. Wouldnt hear of it. For him, it has to be spelled out in,(pardon the expression) black and white. As if stam logic and deductive reasoning is reserved for geonei olam, and not for mere mortals. We make fun of Fundamentalists when they are goyim.
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