Struggling with Cholov Yisrael..

To be fair, she’s unhappy that I said she’s overstepping her bounds.

I did say that I didn’t have time to respond point by point, which she perhaps took to mean that I didn’t have time to read her posts.

I did in fact read them, though. They just haven’t swayed me.

I am stuck in a small city in the Midwest, without a Jewish community. All Kosher food here is tough to get and very expensive , if I can get it at all. Cholov Yisroel is but a dream here, although the local Walmart DOES have one item, a gluten free wafer from Israel. So, I have had to do away with no dairy products at all, except the possible wafers, I used them as my DAIRY on Shavuous! Needless to say, my diet here is extremely limited.

out of town yid,

If there is a Chabad shul anywhere in the vicinity, they are likely getting large orders of cholov Yisroel products shipped to them. You can contact them and ask if they can add some products for you onto their order.

In the Holy City of Brooklyn Kosher food is much cheaper and easily available, but the rents will kill you

Lakewoood Ir Hakodesh isnt so cheap anymore so people are moving to Toms River and Jackson

And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam.
You wrote:
According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response, this does not seem to be a halachic question per se’. It is muttar to drink/eat chalav stam and the Rav whom he asked did not say that it’s assur for him to do so. As far as I can tell, the issue is not “Is he allowed to eat chalav stam?” but “Should he do so?”

I mean that I hadn’t expressed my own opinion on chalav stam. In the post you quote, I was saying that according to the Rav whom he asked, it’s muttar to eat chalav stam (and therefore it is muttar for him to eat it if he trusts this Rav).

‘’To be fair, she’s unhappy that I said she’s overstepping her bounds.
I did say that I didn’t have time to respond point by point, which she perhaps took to mean that I didn’t have time to read her posts.
I did in fact read them, though. They just haven’t swayed me.’’

1. In two of the threads I was referring to, you specifically told me that you hadn’t read the posts (that the discussion was about).

2. As far as this thread is concerned, you did not read my posts carefully. When someone writes that you didn’t read their posts carefully, that means that from your posts, it is clear that you misunderstood their posts, and that you wrote that they wrote things that they didn’t write.

Since I have a high opinion of your intelligence, I assumed that you hadn’t read my posts carefully, and that if you had done so, you would not have misunderstood. Perhaps I am over-rating your intelligence, but I really think that if you would go back and reread my posts carefully, you would realize that you misunderstood what I wrote and made very inaccurate and unfair assumptions.

And even if I’m wrong (which I really don’t think so) and you really aren’t capable of understanding what I wrote, the fact still remains that you misunderstood me and you think that I said something I didn’t, so you should please stop criticizing me!!!

Some of the proofs that you didn’t read what I wrote carefully:

You wrote:
“You seem to assume that anyone going through a tough time needs to be meikil. That may very well be true in some cases, but may very well be damaging in others. Perhaps long term, some individuals may be better off holding fast to their standards, rather than slacking off and feeling as if they was too weak and caved in.’’
‘’ You are assuming that had the first rav understood his emotional state, he would find room to be meikil on cholov stam.’’

I had written:

“Don’t look for a lenient Rav – look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities. Look for a Rav who won’t just tell you what to do, but how to do it. If he doesn’t think you should stop c”y, he will give you an alternative (as DY suggested).”

Lilmod Ulelamaid,

Since I have a high opinion of your intelligence, I assumed that you hadn’t read my posts carefully, and that if you had done so, you would not have misunderstood.

If someone who I believe is highly intelligent misunderstands something I wrote and also states that he read it carefully, I would assume that what I wrote must not have clearly conveyed what I was intending it to convey. Even if I thought I stated it well, at the end of the day I’m not writing for myself, I’m writing to communicate. So my next step would be to attempt to clarify or rephrase what I’m trying to communicate, using the misunderstanding as a guide. Questioning the intelligence or honesty of the audience, however, is counterproductive.

“Why did you assume that the first rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities, unless you didn’t like his answer?”

Where did I write that the first Rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities?

Avram,

1.”Questioning the intelligence or honesty of the audience, however, is counterproductive.”

Chas v’shalom, I have the highest respect for DY’s intelligence and honesty. That was my point. I really do think that if he reads my posts carefully, he will see that I did not write the things he is accusing me of writing.

2. “If someone who I believe is highly intelligent misunderstands something I wrote and also states that he read it carefully..”

He hadn’t said that at the point that the comment being referred to had been made (about “overstepping boundaries”). He also didn’t say that later on, as you would see if you read his posts carefully. He said that he had read them, not that he had read them carefully. But at the point in question, he hadn’t even said that he had read them. (post 1389862, which is the post that I was defending).

3. It is not an accusation of dishonesty to say that someone did not read what I wrote carefully as seen by their response. It happens very frequently (especially in the CR) that someone posts something that shows that they haven’t read all the posts in the thread carefully. I’m sure that I have done it myself, and I’m sure that you have as well.

4. You seem to be missing the context of the statements that you are attacking. DY had said this: ” I think you are overstepping your boundaries by giving halachic advice where you think you are able to assess a poster’s emotional state. And yes, it’s halachic advice, because the cholov stam issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.”

In that statement, he falsely accused me of saying something that I hadn’t said, and in so doing “overstepping my boundaries.” I thought that his falsely accusing me in this way was “overstepping his boundaries”. I was very offended by that comment, and I do not see anything wrong with telling someone who offends you by falsely accusing you of “overstepping your boundaries” that he is “overstepping his boundaries” by doing so. In fact, I think that was a very polite way to respond to a very offensive comment.

The posts you are attacking were my defending my right to do so, after I was attacked for doing so.

Where did I write that the first Rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities?

You actually even quoted yourself saying that a few posts back.

“Look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities.”

I know, you’re going to say that you didn’t actually say that the first rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities. And that’s technically true. But you are missing how your posts are coming across.

I’m sorry if you think I’m attacking you and making false accusations against you. That’s not my intent.

You can choose to insist that you very carefully wrote disclaimers at every turn, but think about why you need to write all these disclaimers – because you realize that it sounds like you’re saying that the first rav was wrong, but you know you can’t say that, so you’re disclaiming that.

But it still sounds that way.

The same is true with a few points in this discussion; that’s an example.

I’m sorry that I’ve hurt your feelings. Again, that certainly wasn’t my intent.

So that we all know WHERE cholov Yisroel is coming from….where are the products being processed and packaged? WE SHOULD be able to go directly to where products come from, so that if NOT available in OUR area, we might be able to go to the source to obtain the products directly. Where are the farms and the processing facilities? Some farms nay be in certain locations in upstate NY, or in some place in another state producing dairy products such as Wisconsin or California. No local stores in these areas may carry anything, but we should have some sort of directory of where to go to get product direct from processing or production facility…..and when to go, as may not be available every day. I wish that the Kashrus agencies would publicize this information. WHERE are products from various companies actually being packaged? We should be able to go there and directly get products. Products may be processed and packaged somewhere in upstate NY, or another area….but not being SOLD nearby, is a big problem for the few Cholov Yisroel customers who might live somewhere near that area. They may have to travel far away to get their products, yet the products are actually produced near them.The problem is that no local store will get the product. In Wisconsin, for example, much cheese may be produced or packaged there, but where. It might be somewhat near somebody who might use that product, but the nearest stores where it might be available might be hundreds of miles away.
Cholov Yisroel information should be much more available. ONE company that I know of, makes a few cheeses under STAR K is on the internet and will ship the cheese to you. the varied selection is mostly cholov Yisroel. The location is probably reasonable driving distance from Milwaukee, Postville, or Minnesota. The company is called HARMONY CHEESE. But products are not currently available in their own local cheese store. BUT you can place an order for pick up. Cheese is not sliced but is in one or 5 lb blocks or larger. This cheese is often sold wholesale to stores. Invest in a good cheese cutter! Check the website carefully for the kosher cheeses as most of their products are not kosher. A few cheeses may also be kosher for Pesach. I have had a few of their products. They were shipped to me. They are located in central rural Wisconsin, nowhere near any established Jewish community I am aware of at this time. I would hope that other companies would also be able and willing to ship their products directly to you. I understand that SHTARK cheeses may also be produced in Wisconsin, but of course would not be sold in local stores in the area….and there are probably very few Yidden around in Wisconsin anyway. I have no idea of availability of many of these items in other areas. Our cholov Yisroel dairy product companies are all producing and packaging their products in remote areas, probably not anywhere near where MOST Yidden live. BUT, it would be nice to sometimes be able to do a pickup rather than have to travel far to a store to obtain them. There are, surprisingly Yidden in some remote areas far from established Jewish communities. Not many, only a few, here and there. AND…if one was travelling in one of these areas……

And…milk….In the EAST we have the familiar Golden Flow, and other brands in NY area….Pride of the Farm in NJ and Baltimore, etc. I understand that in the midwest, probably somewhere in Wisconsin there is a company with a name something like Lammer. I saw this company when I was in a store in Chicago.. I am not aware of the hashgacha. We should know the actual location of their bottling facilities and be able to pick up milk directly from all of these places. AS milk must be available fast, and is not able to be transported very long distances, most of these companies are quite regional.

The production companies most probably do not want people showing up at their plants to buy a gallon of milk.

That’s how the whole wholesale/retail system works.

Takes 2

There are laws on the books in most states that the farms aren’t allowed to sell milk directly to consumers because the mole isn’t pasteurized etc.

As far as going into the bottling facilities in concerned, be ready for them to laugh you out of there. They are companies, NOT stores!!!