Struggles with guys

Oneofmany

“Syag: Because both of them are promoting justifications that are not grounded in reality. Boys display sociopathic behavior up until marriage and then become kind, sensitive snowflakes? If you don’t have a boyfriend before marriage your reward (seriously?!) will be this awesome guy who will love you and be devoted to you for all eternity–just by virtue of you being such a good girl? In my (humble and inexperienced) opinion, this is not the type of thinking that fosters healthy marriages.

All that is beside the fact that the actual problems with having a relationship outside of marriage are hirhur, negiah, and etc. Would two well-adjusted thirty year-olds be allowed to have a romantic relationship? What is the point in building spurious and potentially harmful ideas? If a girl has trouble accepting the basic halacha as it is, try to find her other emotional (or dare I say, intellectual) outlets.”

No boys don’t display sociopathic behavior before marriage and then become anything. The point is that teens go through certain changes during those years that cause their hormones to rage I cant be explicit here but those hormones lead a boy to have very unclean thoughts and very overpowering desires. Now these crazy drives normalize at around 20 +- a few years.

Now in general every typical male has strong desires, even post teens but theres a big difference between the teenage surge and the post teen surge in that your body calms down a lot. You cant compare the crazy energy and drive of a 17 year old to a 23 year old.

Also, when you are in Shidduchim you are older have matured and grown as a person, have likely learned more about relationships and what marriage is about and your head is on marriage and having a real relationship. You are set on finding that one person that you will spend your life with, build a family with and all that. Yes most guys will still care about the physical attraction and that is part of how we are wired but at 22 or 23 we are able to put that at the back burner and not make our marriage decision based totally on that. As a teen dating has zero toeles. The boy has one interest and one interest only, to enjoy the females physicality. Theres no relationship. He doesnt go home with her. They dont live together. He doesnt have to BE THERE for her. They just hang out and chill together and he is only there for the fun stuff, the second it stops being fun the boy hits the road. You know that you don’t need the girl because if things dont work you just say good bye and find another. If anything the girl is desperate to keep the boy and tends to fall for him and out of her desperation to keep him will do things she will live to regret later. Once you give the boy what he wants what is his motivation for teh relationship?

In shidduchim (by shomrei Torah) there is no touching and no chance you will get any of that before marriage. Your focus is much more grounded on reality, you dont intend to marry her get divorced find another get divorced….You want this one to work.

I think, and noticed, that the teenage years is a time of forming strong bonds. This shows out in many aspects. Students become very connected to their mentors, friends become very close and hang on each other — at times to point of being annoying, and in the context of what this thread is about as well. It is also a time when many things are intense, and the image of a Bochur that is an Oved doesn’t resemble anything else. Wouldn’t that make it the best time to get married and form a powerful bond?

I think this is silly. Yes, there will always be some tension there when boys and girls are together. That’s how we’re made. It doesn’t mean that every interest of guys when talking to girls is that. I’m not claiming it’s Muttar, but these are terrible reasons to avoid it.

Ok, so now that I’ve calmed down a bit it’s time to respond to individual posts rather than just ranting generally. Here goes:

SaysMe –

so well said!thanks for sharing!

Bored –

yup so well said!

mitzvagirl –

That was amazing!!! i agree with saysme so well said and in such a nice way!! no criticizing involved!!!

batseven –

I am a girl, and I can relate to what you wrote in a very positive way.

Its so true!!!

So all you girls know what’s going on in our male brains better than us males… Do you mind telling us how?! How on earth do you know what our thoughts, feelings and motivations are?! I’m telling you as a male (and one that was a teenager not so long ago) that it’s just not true, how dare you tell me that you know better?! From what experience are you talking, from whose first-hand knowledge are you gleaning your information?

And as for ‘no criticizing involved’… Seriously?! So what do you call the following:

those teens

Only treat us girls as toys…

But when it comes to caring about whats inside

Their hormones won’t let them see much

They know how to talk to us

And which buttons to press

To make us fall in love with them

And how to make us feel our best…

their only interest

Is the clothing that you wear

Your size skirt, and style shirt

And how you wear your hair

They can’t see past your curves and shape

And the makeup on your eyes

They could care less about how you feel

As long as you’re by their side…

We’re responsible for blinding them

From anything internal

And if one day you eat to much

And your skirt size jumps a bit

He’ll no longer appreciate you

And to a relationship he won’t commit..

using you for his games…

They come and go and break your heart

And make you suffer and cry…

That’s not criticising?! No, that’s outright bigotry. That’s making all guys out as animals. That’s beyond nasty. And ‘written in a positive way’?! C’mon! Positive for whom? Certainly not us poor benighted guys…

batseven –

No one is saying that boys are pigs, or terrible animals or something

See above.

its just a fact that they have a very strong yetzer hara, and therefore may very likely be looking at the girl not for who she is

And girls don’t have a yetzer horah?! The trouble is you see that us guys at least know about ours and, for the most part, learn to deal with it. Yes of course we see girls in the street and like the look of them but please don’t tell me you’ve never found a guy attractive. When my sisters were teenagers (not that long ago either) they’d talk quite openly about the kind of guys they fancied, it just wasn’t seen as wrong to them. But G-d help us poor guys who’d even think about admitting what kind of girls we found attractive because then we’d just be one of those shallow, external guys who can’t appreciate that females are more than just bodies. And because we’re aware of our ta’avos we can appreciate that there’s more than just the ta’avoh.

ultimateskier –

When speakers like R’Orlofsky, R’Mechanic, R’Wallerstien, etc come to speak to us girls they bash how terrible guys are amd thats why we shouldnt talk to them….so what do they tell you?

Pretty much the same thing. And then I told them that they’re talking rubbish (well R’ Orlofsky and R’ Mechanic anyway, I’ve never heard R’ Wallerstien). There weren’t many people in the room who took it sitting down, you can’t really tell a room full of guys something they know from experience to be untrue and expect them to believe it just because you said so…

mammele –

this poem is discussing those boys that are “hanging out” and trying to woo girls, not necessarily your average yeshiva bochur

No, it’s not. This poem is about boys in general. See above quotes.

P.s. Mods, sorry about the long post, just had quite a bit to say that needed saying.

It’s this kind of misandrist claptrap that creates the kind of atmosphere where girls feel perfectly comfortable taking pictures of guys dancing behind the mechitza so they can rate them and guys feel so uncomfortable with the thought of even accidentally seeing a girl that they walk so bent over they end up looking like Quasimodo by age 20.

There is nothing wrong in Halacha with girls rating guys, which is why it is done. Girls also have “interests”, and unlike boys, they are allowed to think (and in some ways act, as long as it is not with a boy) on them. Ask the Ribbono Shel Olam why that is the case, but it certainly is.

danish123

You have expressed yourself in a quite articulate manner and I (late 40’s male)) truly believe you are correct on many points.

Most medical people will confirm that teenage males with their raging hormones constantly have thoughts of the opposite gender. It is normal. The Torah in its infinite wisdom advises to focus on learning which will divert the individual away from further thinking or even acting on those thoughts. It also discourages unnecessary contact with the opposite gender. This advice is valid for the balance of the individual’s life.

For those learning Daf Yomi, earlier in Eruvin, the Gemara relates an anecdote where Bruria (wife of R” Meir) berated someone for speaking one extra word to a woman. It is interesting to note that Bruria was so confident of her ability to resist temptation that she allowed herself to be put to the test. She failed and was so distraught that she committed suicide. The Chazal were smarter from all of us when they advise “Ein apotropus leraayos” – there is no viable defense to forbidden relationships.

However, like everything else in life balance is the key. If someone is visiting a friend on Shabbos there is nothing wrong in saying good Shabbos to his friend’s sister. It is only common courtesy.

Many of the problems our youth face today is the ever increasing amount of issurim constantly being issued and the ever increasing amount of hefkeirus one encounters on the street. It creates enormous pressure on top of just trying to be a kid growing up.

I is interesting to note the Gemara which relates how on the 15th of Av, unmarried girls would all dress in the same way and actually address the young unmarried men in Yerushalayim to attract their attention. This is not contradictory at all. It just shows that our holy Torah knows how we think better than we do. It also knows when it is the right time to start interacting with the opposite gender for the purposes of marriage.

Please do not place all boys in the category of being boors. I know so many fine young men that come in so many different categories, be they Yeshivish, YU or Chassidish. They are all yirei shomayim and are all ovdei Hashem in their own way. I also know many boys who are going down a path which will not have a good ending. A smart girl will quickly discern who is real or not.

Be very careful about information you receive about individuals when you start dating. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who do not fargin and will give false information either to hide something or portray a person in a certain light when they are far from that description.

Have an open mind, know what kind of person you want to spend the next 100 years with and most important daven to Hashem so you should meet your bashert in a timely fashion.

Syag – Nope, I’d have cared very much. It isn’t about how frum a person is, it’s about how you can dehumanise the entire opposite gender (and, what is worse, on the mistaken basis that they apparently dehumanise you).

thank you for your respectful answer (I’m always so fearful of disagreements). I don’t really see the entire gender being referenced, just a very specific group of teens from the perspective of one of those teens. And having spent much time in that place, I beg to differ. Dehumanizing was an excellent choice of word.