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there are 40. i am not sure where you are getting your numbers from. whatever the case is, it is irrelevant how many there are and whether they get married young or old. the point is that whatever age they are, they are all looking for money. im not saying they’re looking for multi millions, but they are looking to get what they believe they are “entitled” to. it’s a taker’s society which, for some reason is showing up in the boys a lot stronger.
AZ: What are the ages of the rest of them?
AZ, do young men move on from Lakewood at a certain point? Are there other smaller yeshivos that have a concentration of older boys? I have a good friend whose son moved on, not from BMG but a yeshiva he was at for a good few years for a change of pace and mazal.
melechalmaklo
If 700 boys come a year and 5 years left there are 17 boys, clearly $$$ is NOT causing the crisis. It is simply a derivative because we live in a takers world. If the boys have the hammer they have the ability to take advantage. Even out the numbers and the money problem get greatly alleviated.
melechalmaklo:
Regrading the numbers there were 17 age 27, 17 age 28 and a small handful older
Haifa girls: By far the overwhelming majority of boys in BMG are 21-25 probable more like 21-24, but I don’t have up do date numbers.
Tzippi: The answer to your question is to frightening to contemplate. In ner yisroel there are 6 boys (maybe a couple more) who are single and over 26. Certainly at a certain point boys leave BMG and go elsewhere or to work. But at 27 (less than five years after arriving) VERY few have left, which is why i choose to use that age as the barometer.
AZ, maybe I should have qualified. Everything seems small compared to Lakewood, but I consider NIRC a larger yeshiva. Can you get your numbers people to find out where the others have gone? (FWIW, that was the yeshiva I was referring to in my earlier post.)
I realize it’s too frightening to contemplate but I’m a baalos bitachon and I would like to start contemplating. Could you spell out what the frightening implications are? When you crunch numbers are the non-fulltime learners part of it all, or is the shidduch crisis the domain of the fulltime learners and those who want to marry them?
Really, trust me. I can handle it.
AZ:
But money causes the older girls without it not to be looked at, vs. the older girls with money who “have fewer strikes”.
As you have pointed out, a financial incentive works to get boys to date older girls.
gaw: of course money plays a role like looks like yichus like evertyhting else. The GORILLA in the room is the inequity of numbers. And that CAN be alleviated greatly!!
I just noticed that in the tehilim thread there is a spreadsheet where people can post names of singles to daven for. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=prWxJ2GQH9NYDivfbzo22aQ&hl=en
It seems that there are 5 boys for every one girl. We have a Shiduch Crisis here!
“It seems that there are 5 boys for every one girl-We have a Shiduch Crisis here! “
Where have I heard that before????
AGE GAP AGE GAP AGE GAP
Close The AGE GAP Solve The Crisis
How about a thread listing reasons why it is beneficial for boys to date and marry girls their own age i.e. slightly older girls as opposed to girls who just came back from sem.
Good Idea AZ
going back to the topic of saying no to dates…
firstly, i do not agree that the boys say no after dates. most of the time, probably 80% of the time, the girls say no. It’s the boys who are being rejected. The reason for this is the shidduch crisis itself. When a boy says yes to a girl, he looked into five or ten other girls and said yes to the one that fit what he was looking for most. When he goes out, there is already a bigger chance that he will like the girl after her resume passed his cross examination. Just the fact that a boy says yes is already a big push for a girl to go out. Of course girls don’t just go out with everyone who says yes, but there is MUCH less room for nixing. So, of course, when boys and girls go out the girls say no. There wasn’t much pulling her from the beginning! Then, to make matters worse, the boys’ egos get busted from the dating process of constantly getting rejected. They stop going out so often because they dont want the rejection so the girls get even less dates. This is especially true of the older boys who have been through so many years of rejection that they are close to impossible to get a hold of….
“It seems that there are 5 boys for every one girl-We have a Shiduch Crisis here! “
Where have I heard that before????
AGE GAP AGE GAP AGE GAP
Close The AGE GAP Solve The Crisis
AZ: You can’t have it both ways. If the AGE GAP is causing there to be more girls than boys, you can’t now claim the AGE GAP is the cause of five times as many boys as girls.
To melechmalko: what you have to say is interesting. I’ve heard that when boys usually look at a few girls, these are girls who have already said YES. This is why girls often do their checking out and give the yeses to the boys first.
no no no… girls never give the yesses first. what’s the use of spending time looking into a boy when the boy is looking at a bunch of names and probably wont say yes?? the girls would constantly be giving yesses and not hear a response. the names always go to the boy first, and when the boy gives the yes, it goes to the girl.
btw when a boy hears that the girl said yes it’s because the shadchan wanted to push the boy to say yes so she said the girl is interested. in some cases the girl is interested and sent the shadchan to run after the boy, (which is a really sad situation and deserves a post on its own) and in some cases, the shadchan assumed that since it’s hard to get a yes from a boy, the girl would say yes if she got a yes from him. in any case, girls rarely waste their time looking into boys that didnt give an answer yet and probably wont…
Why am I laughing?? 🙂 oh yeah ….. So now there are more boys…..
Sorry but
a) I heard this from a rav who was speaking about shidduchim
b) I’ve dealt with enough shadchanim myself who wanted us to look into it and give a yes from our side (re daughters) first to save the boys time.
precisely! the shadchanim dont want to bother going through the ordeal of getting the boy to say yes if the girl is not interested.
whatever the case is, the point still remains that the girls do not have as much of a choice in who they go out with so they end up saying no more than the boys do.
haifagirl: you are correct. I assumed moderator-42 meant to say there are 5 girls for every boy, thus my comment.
mod-42 please clarify what you meant to say previously
As one who is intimately involved in the frum Shidduch scene, we are pleased to inform you of a new resource being launched to assist in the Shidduch process for our community. As you surely know, the burgeoning growth of our families bli ayin horah, along with the growing diversity of our community, has made the Shidduch process today, perhaps more challenging then ever before.
While the media focus on this subject has brought about an increased awareness of the issue, it seems that the only real solution to this problem is to create new approaches and venues for accessibility to the growing number of frum singles. Particularly, singles with limited connection or exposure to the broader communal infrastructure.
The proliferation of internet usage has brought about a host of matchmaking websites, many of them ostensibly geared toward the Orthodox community. Yet these websites really do not serve the needs of our circles. As a community, we recognize the inappropriateness of bochurim and Bais Yaakov girls scanning through pictures on a website in search of their basherte. We are in no way prepared to do away with the time-honored approach of consummating our shidduchim through a Shadchan. Nor are we willing to, in any way, compromise on our community’s standards of tznius and discretion within this process.
Yet, the internet is an immensely powerful tool, which can be used to help mitigate the challenge of shidduchim in unprecedented way.
It is with this in mind that ShidduchWorld.org was launched by a group of dedicated volunteers. The mission of Shidduch World is not to revolutionize or change the process of shidduchim in any way.Rather, our goal to harness the power of the web to create a database resource through which singles and Shadchanim would gain access to each other in an expedient and effective manner.
With the guidance of Gedolim and Rabbonim, we have created a website where singles can upload their profiles, which would include a basic description of themselves and their background including their Shul affiliation and personal rabbinic contact. Profiles of our listed singles would then be accessible and searchable, without names or photos, so that other singles would view potential shidduchim in the database based upon compatibility factors alone. Shidduch World will feature a staff of Shadchanim available to carry through Shidduchim upon request. Shidduch World’s Shadchanim would also consistently work on shidduchim for the singles in our database based upon their preferences and listed profiles.
The effectiveness of such a database cannot be overestimated, and has earned the wholehearted support of leading gedolim and rabbonim. The site also features options for hiring a personal Shadchan, as well as for posting one’s name for Tefillah and for asking questions anonymously from our affiliated Shadchanim, Rabbonim and Doctors.
We are reaching out you and others who can assist us in building the Shidduch World database. By compiling a list of singles and their profiles and submitting it to us (with the single’s permission, of course) you can assist us in the creation of this vital resource. We have also attached a convenient letter, which you can forward to your list of singles and their families, urging them to join in this project.
Please visit our site at http://www.shidduchworld.org for a more detailed description of this service and for information on how Shadchanim would maintain access to our database.
For any further questions, please feel free to contact us at [email protected]. We look forward to your assistance and we thank you in advance for your time.
In this zechus, may be blessed from Shomayim with a Happy Chanuka for your entire family; a year filled with nachas and hatzlacha in all endeavors.
Sincerely,
Moshe Silberstein
Founder; ShidduchWorld.org
received in an email:
YWM42:
I just noticed that in the tehilim thread there is a spreadsheet where people can post names of singles to daven for. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=prWxJ2GQH9NYDivfbzo22aQ&hl=en
It seems that there are 5 boys for every one girl. We have a Shiduch Crisis here!
No, just the girls are more embarrassed to put their names up ;). Anyways, I prob wouldnt be too interested in a boy that has his name on some tehillim list out there.
Yw mod-42
I just saw the list. There are a toatal of five names re: shidducim. I didn’t realize you were making a joke. I thought there were hundreds and you were basing you assessment on that….
AZ, I was actually saying the exact opposite of you. You say that there are too many girls yet in the spreadsheet I posted there are more boys!
As the anonymous email I posted suggested, this is probably because girls are too embarrassed to put their names down on a tehilim list.
You, AZ, have already showed many times that there are more girls, I was just making a
joke.
Back to the email I posted. I don’t understand why it is that she wouldn’t want to go out with a boy on a tehilim list. When it comes to shiduchim there is a chiyuv of hishtadlus which is why most of the discussions here boil down to what is considered proper hishtadlus. Everyone agrees that Hashem is the ultimate shadchan and that therefore davening is certainly part of proper hishtadlus so I don’t see why someone would be turned off by a boy who puts himself on a tehilim list. I also think that girls should not be embarrassed to put themselves on lists as well though I do see a difference between giving their names’ to a friends to daven for each other is different than putting your name on a public spreadsheet
melechalmaklo, may I respectfully disagree.
“going back to the topic of saying no to dates…firstly, i do not agree that the boys say no after dates. most of the time, probably 80% of the time, the girls say no. It’s the boys who are being rejected. The reason for this is the shidduch crisis itself. When a boy says yes to a girl, he looked into five or ten other girls and said yes to the one that fit what he was looking for most. When he goes out, there is already a bigger chance that he will like the girl after her resume passed his cross examination. Just the fact that a boy says yes is already a big push for a girl to go out. Of course girls don’t just go out with everyone who says yes, but there is MUCH less room for nixing. So, of course, when boys and girls go out the girls say no. There wasn’t much pulling her from the beginning!……”
Interesting theory, but we must be living on different planets. I’ve made in excess of 150 dates in the last year. Once a guy is 27 or older, he has already dated close to, if not more than, 100 girls, in most cases and been “red” and rejected many more. After that he goes on dates wanting one girl’s looks, the other girls personality and the next girl’s family, and yet the other girl’s career/ambition/lack of ambition. The girls cant win, no one girl has it all, and the guys continue on their “not so merry” go round dating, not wanting to settle because they always have new girls ready to date them! Girls get older and have less and less opportunities, and older boys often get engaged to much younger girls, and the guys know it.
I noticed in the opening thread a constant theme of “best boy”, “best learner”, “next Rosh…” and the same for girls. Was there always this competitiveness aspect to finding a soulmate? I think not. Yes, I understand the value of have a spouse with Yerat Shamiyim. But the way that it sounds getting married today is a cross between a race and buying a trophy, or some pure-bred Irish Setter (lahavdeal). It sounds kinda reckless.
If everyone is a best boy, then nobody is a best boy.
A person has to find the best boy for themselves. What could be good for one girl is not necessarily the best for her friend.
I guess it goes both ways- some shadchanim ask the girl first, others ask the boys. Personally, I always heard the boys first, but in any case, just to clarify, the boys usually say yes to a FEW girls at the same time (obviously ones who pass “inspection”). And anyways, why should only the boys be allowed to nix?
” boys usually say yes to a FEW girls at the same time (obviously ones who pass “inspection”). “
Whose inspection, exactly???? I believe it is the boys’ MOTHERS who are inspecting to death. I have a son who is not yet married. I don’t “inspect” his shidduchim. The only things I am interested in prior to a FIRST date, are the following: Is she a sweet, kind, balabatish girl? Are her parents and siblings warm and caring people with a hashkafa close to our own? If those two criteria are met, there is plenty of time after a first date, to determine if further information will be necessary. That’s how I see it, and it has never steered me wrong yet. I am not interested in hearing about tablecloths, dress sizes, gorgeous or not, “best girl in Yeshivah,” or not. Twenty years from now, it will matter very little if my daughter-in-law was an Aleph plus student.What WILL matter will be whether or not her middos, along with those of my son, were imparted properly to their children. After having children, many girls will have gained weight over the years. Looks are very subjective. What a parent thinks is attractive often is not, to the son or daughter.
It’s time to stop being concerned with external naarishkeit, and start being realistic about what really matters for our children’s future.
azoi is –
i do agree that there are a handful of picky older guys who nix all the girls they go out with. and, yes i’ve heard boys saying that the girls they go out with just get younger and younger so why settle with someone now…but for the most part, it’s the girls who say no most of the time, at least on the planet that i live on. i say this from personal experience and from what i hear from friends and dates that i’ve set up…
congrats on 150 dates! keep it up!
melechalmaklo, thanks. Know any single guys? Send them my way. I have an army of single girls, all seriously looking to get married who are meeting guys they feel are looking for everything in one in a girl, for years straight, and unwilling to settle for anything less.
AZOI.IS: If there are so many great girls out there and so few guys maybe you can tell me why some shadchanim push guys to go out with girls who they say they are not interested in? I had a shadchan send me information on a girl he knew personally, I had someone look into her and I found out some information that made me not want to go out with her. The information I found out was not something I could share with the shadchan so I just said “I looked into it and I don’t think she’s for me” his response was basically “yes, she is”. I think this kind of behavior is what keeps guys away from shadchanim and if there are so many girls out there does it make sense that a shadchan would have to try to force a particular girl on me?
obviously the OP read enders game lol. great book!
youdontknowme, sounds like this specific Shadchan is a very rare breed- a one girl Shadchan. If you’re a 5′ 5″ guy, or a unique personality- type, for example, or some other hard-to-fit situation, maybe the Shadchan doesn’t know any other girls who fit the bill. There are lots of Shadchanim. Why deal with one who makes you feel uncomfortable and doesnt take no for an answer?
But truthfully, many happy Shidduchim have happened with a little coersion in the beginning.
AZOI.IS: I’m about 5’9″ and I don’t have a weight problem. I’m not MO, I have a full time job and I’m not looking for a girl to support me so I guess I do have a “unique personality”. I don’t think there’s anything about me that’s hard to fit and frankly if there is that wouldn’t say much about our shidduch system. I will probably not deal with that shadchan again but that experience also makes me reluctant to deal with another shadchan.
I know that many shidduchim only happened b/c of some coercion in the beginning but I think it’s usually in a case where someone says something like “i don’t want to go out right now” or “not with a girl from brooklyn” or something stupid like that. The problem in my case is more difficult than that, I didn’t ask for a picture and the shadchan didn’t provide one but I ended up seeing a picture of her and I would be embarrassed to walk in public with this girl. I usually ignore the pictures b/c you can’t always tell much from them but in this case there’s no way it’s just a bad picture. Of course I can’t tell that to the shadchan b/c he’s too close to her and it wouldn’t be nice anyway. Even if I could say what the problem was I know that I’d be made to feel like I’m doing something wrong, being too picky or shallow, which is not true about me at all. It’s very frustrating, especially when all I hear is how easy it is for the guys.
youdontknowme, Boy would I like to see your Shidduch resume!
EDITED
AZOI.IS: I don’t know if the meaning of your post was taken away by what was edited. In any case my Shidduch resume is very simple, it has my personal and family info and my references, you really can’t tell much from it. If your thinking from my last post that I probably am picky and make lots of demands, that’s not the case, you won’t find a list of approved dress sizes,styles or anything like that.
I offered my email address but it was removed.
EDITED
I don’t think I would send my personal info to someone from a message board before I found out who they were in real life. I do think it’s odd though that YW won’t let you choose to give out your own info, what’s up with that mods?
FROM THE RULES:
2 – Personal email addresses or websites will not be published. Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved. Should a blogger continuously try to pry personal information from others, he/she will be booted from YWN
One user name per person. Period! If there is a need to drop an existing user name and adopt a new user name (e.g. personal information has been compromised), let us know so that we do not unitentionally “out” you.
(Mods, I’m offering a solution)
youdontknowme, you can join SYAS for a day, for free, and I’ll notice you (that’s one place I’m a rather busy Matchmaker, with an eye out for singles w. Yesh. leanings), and then you’ll know I’m as real as can be and who you’re dealing with. I will then have your contact info and email you through the site.
AZOI.IS: I appreciate the idea and I’ll give it some thought, I’ve always been a little wary of signing up for internet dating sites (not that there’s anything wrong with them). It may be a while, I’m somewhat preoccupied for the next couple weeks.
another incentive to join SYAS youdontknwme: I heard that if you are a boy SYAS actually “begs” you to come to their singles events over shabbos and they often make the girls pay and the boys get to come for free! However, its NOT fair to girls. guess you guys are more valuble than girls
happy girl, that has been my daughter’s exact experience, paying hundreds of dolalrs for Shabbos getaways, where the boys paid NOTHING, and are the same guys each time, over and over again. She only continues to go to these events, because you never know when a particular event WILL yield a new group of people who show up. But generally, it has been a very unfair situation vis a vis the girls.
happy girl and oomis1105: What would you do to change the sitch?
There are engagements that happen after all of these weekends. I’m not familiar with what or if the guys pay, but I’m sure all the organizers of the different singles weekends would love for many guys to come on their own.
Happy Girl: I don’t really consider that an incentive, I wouldn’t want to go to a singles event and definitely wouldn’t want them to beg me. I also think it’s wrong that the girls have to pay and the guys get in free, I think that kind of sets the tone for the whole event.
The object of the game is RESULTS RESULTS RESULTS ENGAGEMENTS ENGAGEMENTS ENGAGEMENTS. And they happen.
azoi.is I also work quite a bit in shidduchim…if there would be a way we could ‘get together’ or perhaps get mod intervention so we can get these people to get in touch with us personally…maybe we could help the desperate situation a bit…
mom12, I’m OK with that (but how?). There are way too many singles/parents out there who are upset, to put it mildly, about not being able to find Shidduchim.
This is a question to all the shadchanim? How well do you screen the people whom you recommend as shidduchim? I know someone who went to an event recently and met someone, only to find out the next day that the person has a very unsavory past. Nobody at the event, including the person who brought him there, were aware of a very,very serious problem that would make him completely un”redt”able. Obviously, I do not mean something like a past illness, or that he was temporarily OTD. It is something far more serious. So how do you verify that the the profile someone gives you is not completely bogus and they are not axe murderers or such?
oomis1105, generally speaking it’s the singles responsibility to find out about one another. Honest Shadchanim will at least hint about an issue they’re aware of. If they dont know, they dont know. What about cousins or neighbors, who know one another for years, only to find out stuff after marriage, and the marriage doesnt last. There are no guarantees in life. I dont think Shidduchim made on websites or weekends have a lower likelihood of success, statistically.
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