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berlin: oddly enough I answered your query before you even posted it (see above), though it was approved by the moderator at the same time as yours.
Zalman
Member
cantor, it is also a statement of your hypocrisy that on one hand you harshly critique Rav Elchanan Wasserman for NOT saving his life in WWII, and criticize the Satmar Rebbe FOR saving his life. With your ilk the Rabbonim can do no right.
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I don’t criticize R. Elchanan Wasserman for forfeiting his own life. It was his to forfeit. I do however fault him for counseling others to firfeit theirs rather than emmigrate. Who was he to tell others to die? Let’s not forget the words of R. Velvel Brisker:
How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?
Or were those words reserved only for Zionists?
Zalman
Member
cantoresq,
I’m unfamiliar with R. Esriel Hildesheimer or the Sridei Eish. My apologies for my unfamiliarity with every Rabbi of past and present.
The Satmar Rebbe’s talmidim purchased a train ticket out of Hungary from Kastner ym’s (much like Rebi Yochanan ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh through Vesapian), after Kastner sold the lives of 600,000 Hungarian Jews to Adolf Eichmann in exchange for his train. (Who aside from the tickets he sold for his profit, Kastner mainly filled with his family and Zionist friends.)
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I suggest you familiarize yourself with those great sages. But to give you a small history lesson, R. Esriel Hildesheimer was the Rav in Eisenstadt in the 1860’s. He was close friend of the Maharam Schick and the K’sav Sofer. His was the first yeshiva in Hungary where secular subjects were taught along with Talmud and Shulkhan Arukh. He fell into disvafor with R. Hillel Lichenstein, the Rav of Szikszo, later “Zaddik” of Kolomea over his willingness to endorse a plan to build a kosher seminary. In other words he was against the chaluka between the Orthodox and the Neolog fomented by R. S.R. Hirsch and acted upon by R. Lichtenstein. During the congress of 1868 he became so disgusted with R. Lichtenstein’s terroristic tactics of religiously (almost psychotically, I’m convinced he suffered from mental illness) deligitimizing any Rav who dared disagree with him that he left Hungary for Berlin, and founded the Rabbinical Seminary there; the same type of Seminary he envisioned for Hungary. He was succeeded in Berlin by R. Dovid Zvi Hoffman, the author of Shu”t Melemd L’ho’il (I’m sure you never hear of him either), and then by R. Yechiel Weinberger, the Seridei Eish. R. Yechiel Yaacov Weinberger was a talmid muvhak of the Alter of Slabodka. He was a gaon atzum who toiled ferverently for Klal Yisroel. He was also a tremendous scholar and developed a system of synthesizing secular Jewish scholarship with traditional study. But I’m sure such things are of no interest someone like you.
What is your proof that Kastner made a profit off the train? He died impoverished and his widow struggled to support herself, running a newsppaer kiosk, for years as the Israeli government refused to give her a pension despite her husband’s Zionist activism before and during WWII. A text source for your assertion would be appreciated. Otherwise you would be wise to not slander the dead. As to the Satmer Rav’s travel on that train, I have no problem with it. He had a chance to get out alive and he took it, as did Pinchas Freudiger, the head of the Orthodox community of Budapest, who fled to Bucharest just before the Soviet onslaught (it seems he was forewarned of the Soviet invasion and times his departure to avoid it). No one can ever be blamed for saving themselves. Conversly however one does need to recognize and admire the valient sacrifice of Samu Stern, the head of Neolog community who chose to stay in Budapset for the duration rather then escape when he could. But again to someone like you, he was merely a “Jewish goy” unworthy of any accolade despite his choosing to stand with his brethern as opposed to his Orthodox counterpart, the Satmer Rav and the Belzer Rebbe (and we all know the famous speech his brother in law gave in the Rebbe’s name in the Kazincy schul before his departure as well as the Nitra Rav’s Daughter’s rejoinder to it). No the Satmer Rav did what everyone wanted to do; survive and that’s fine. He deserved to be piloried however for never being makir tov to the man who saved his life; Reszo Kasztner. Kasztner asked him for such a letter during the Grunwald trial, and the Satmer Rav said “G-d saved me, not any man.” David Hamelech gave Shlomo a tazva’ah to remember the B’nei Barzilai and be kind to them as they once did David Hamelech a favor and fed him when he was fleeing Avshalom. Why couldn’t R. Yoel zt”l have done similarly and simply acknowledged the one who saved him when that hero needed it most? Why did R. Yoel have such deep hatred for Zionists (i.e. Jews) that he ignored the truth?
cantoresq,
Kastner is well-documented in the book Perfidy by Ben Hechy (who incidentally was a zionist).
Just as Rebi Yochanon ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh, so too here Klal Yisroel needed malachim on the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe to be saved from destruction. The proof is in the pudding. The Satmar Rebbe single-handedly (along with Rav Ahron Kotler) made Torah in America to be what it is today.
According to your warped logic, the Satmar Rebbe should’ve “thanked” Adolf Eichmann for “saving” him. After all, Eichmann approved AND FULLY ARRANGED for the train to me made available for the trip to Switzerland. Without Eichmann, Kastner had nothing. So the logical conclusion of your drivel is that Eichmann is owed a hakoros hatov by the Rebbe.
Of course both Eichmann and Kastner were cold-blooded mass murderers. Whatever purported good either did, had only evil behind it. Kastner received the Vrba-Wetzler report before the Hungarian deportations began, but kept it secret from the Hungarian Jewish community, per his sweetheart agreement with Eichmann, in order not to imperil his sweetheart deal to save his own family’s skin and those of his chosen zionists. Eichmann and Kastner worked hand-in-hand with each others towards their mutual goals. This is who you demand be thanked?!
Like I said, I strongly suggest reading Perfidy, by Ben Hecht.
mariner,
The disagreement between say Brisk/Satmar/etc. and say the Agudah/etc. whether to participate in the Israeli government organs (i.e. the Kenesset) is a minor one, analogous perhaps to whether to daven sefard or ashkenaz. (Yes, Brisk/Satmar/etc. is vocal in opposition to voting and taking Israeli government money. But this is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things.) In principle they are in agreement in their opposition to (and Agudah/etc. IS officially opposed to) zionism.
mariner,
I specifically differentiated between those (false) breakoff’s (who I identified as meshuganas) and the true R’ Amrom Blau ZTV’L’s N.K. The breakoff’s were thrown out of Satmar (those that originally were Satmar). So don’t besmirch Satmar with those meshuganas. The Satmar Rebbe always refused to participate in anti-zionist activities with any Arabs. In fact, at least once, the Rebbe called off a protest in front of the Israeli counsel in NY when he found out Arabs were planning to “join” the protest, since he wanted nothing to do with the Arabs.
As far as the current matzif, the Rebbe never advocated giving up the State to the Arabs, in as much as a mamzir is not killed. He felt once the zionists did their dirty deed (of establishing the medinah), it was up to the RBS’O to now fix the problem, not man, and he advocated no overthrow of the zionist regime in the holy land.
catoresq, Here is a free copy of Perfidy: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf
Small addition to cantoresq’s words, I hope he doesn’t mind.
I find it odd that someone from the yeshiva world would be unfamiliar with the Sridei Eish. According to Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt”l, Rav Y. Y. Weinberger was the unparalleled iluy of the Slabodka Yeshiva when the Alter ruled there, and was expected to become the leader of European Jewry. It’s less important why this did not come to pass, but his legacy of tzidkus, yashrus, genius, and chidushei torah are an inspiration to lovers of Torah learning many years after his death.
cantor,
From your description of Rav Hillel Lichenstein, one can easily surmise that he was a Torah giant indeed.
After all, anyone YOU consider “mentally ill”, must’ve done a lot of things right.
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .
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This is a quote from the ruling by Israeli Judge Halevi against Kastner:
It is clear that the positive recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive importance for [Nazi Col. Kurt]
(The Judge also found Kastner guilty of “selling his soul to the devil”, the devil being Eichmann and the deal Kastner struck with Eichmann allowing Eichmann to easily deport Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz without resistance.)
Zalman
Member
cantoresq,
Kastner is well-documented in the book Perfidy by Ben Hechy (who incidentally was a zionist).
Just as Rebi Yochanon ben Zakki saved the Rabbonim in Yavneh, so too here Klal Yisroel needed malachim on the caliber of the Satmar Rebbe to be saved from destruction. The proof is in the pudding. The Satmar Rebbe single-handedly (along with Rav Ahron Kotler) made Torah in America to be what it is today.
According to your warped logic, the Satmar Rebbe should’ve “thanked” Adolf Eichmann for “saving” him. After all, Eichmann approved AND FULLY ARRANGED for the train to me made available for the trip to Switzerland. Without Eichmann, Kastner had nothing. So the logical conclusion of your drivel is that Eichmann is owed a hakoros hatov by the Rebbe.
Of course both Eichmann and Kastner were cold-blooded mass murderers. Whatever purported good either did, had only evil behind it. Kastner received the Vrba-Wetzler report before the Hungarian deportations began, but kept it secret from the Hungarian Jewish community, per his sweetheart agreement with Eichmann, in order not to imperil his sweetheart deal to save his own family’s skin and those of his chosen zionists. Eichmann and Kastner worked hand-in-hand with each others towards their mutual goals. This is who you demand be thanked?!
Like I said, I strongly suggest reading Perfidy, by Ben Hecht.
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Perfidy? You refer me to Perfidy, the hatchet job of a minor league pornogprapher? Yes that’s what Ben Hecht did, made nudie b-films. Give me a break. Every serious scholar of the era has debunked that screed for what it is; just so much nonsense.
That you compare Kasztner, a Jew to Eichmann, says fro mroe about you than anything you’ve ever written. It’s interesting that you keep saying that Kasztner was in it only to save his “chosen Zionists.” But yet the Satmer Rav, and the Belzer rebbe were on the train. I guess they were chosen Zionists. BTW do you have any idea how passengers were selected for the train?
I must confess I too once believed that Kasztner was ethically compromised during the war. I then read a bit more about him. Take a look at the following sites for more accurate information about him:
http://www.kasztnermemorial.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner
Indeed I can’t understand Katner’s defense of Kurt Becher, except to ascribe it to a desire on his part to remain a “player” after the war, and to some form ot Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. But to suges that he collaborated with Eichmann y’msh is simple slander.
Let’s not forget that on appeal, the Israeli Supreme court completely reversed Judge Silberg’s findings and Order. Silberg was a political hack and his conduct during the trial reeked of cronyism. But of course by the time his name was cleared it was too late, Kasztner had been murdered. His blood was on Tamir’s hands. Tamir committed the most serious violation of a lawyer’s professionalism. He stoked his ambition at the expense of others. He was fre more interested in looking like a great lawyer than in serving the truth or justice.
well, I could not even come close to the magnificent postings of mariner and especially cantoresq. BTW, mariner, I only questioned your comments on chabad and the possibility of moshiach dying. I fully agree with your description of the mizrachi and the general stupidity of the opponents of today’s flourishing Ertez Yisroel ,that , in no small measure, is due to the “evil Zionists”.
Cantoresq, in spite of your disapproval of shloimele zz’l (another posting) you did a masterful job with your history of the aforementioned gedolim. For anyone in the yeshiva “velt” not to know Rav Yechiel Weinberg zz’l, the Seridei Aish,(as blue shirt notes) shows the total ignorance of these people posting on this website. And ,don’t worry, they would not recognize the “Melamed lehoil” from the priest next door, as they continue to live in their narrow insular world.For that< I could not care less, if not for the fact that they turn their backs to anyone who does not agree with their faulty opnions and thereby write off 95% of Klal ysroel. great ahavas yisroel!
As far as Zalman and Matisjohu’s knowledge, it is apparent that they have no idea of halacha or gemoro or poskim. Thye just parrot what they have heard from people who intrinsically hate most jews. I asked a very simple question to both. You assert that a woamn/girl is forbidden to learn gemoro. Can you quote the source for this? Till now, dead silence….
To zalman, all you did was copy a pamphlet of quotations of the despicable neturei karta branch that could not care less if six million jews died anew. After all, these are the same people who saw nothing wrong in hugging the rosho of Iran, who would wipe off Eretz Yisroel if he could. They truly have a din rodef and are “noisen jad leposhim”.
I am not even going to address the Kastner issue, cantoresq demolished your petty arguments as a bulldozer crushes a rickety hut. And yes, where was the hakoras hatov by the Satmarer rebbe to Ksstner???? The other people that were saved- that I actually know- DID express their thanks to Kastner. All I wish is that if you -chas vecholilo- ever got into such a matzav and are saved by a lowly “Yiddishe goy” you at least would know to thank him before rejecting him.if not, yo uwill not deserve to be saved.
As far as the substance of your pamphlet on the “hated medinah”, I’ll post an answer to that in my next posting.
This whole thread started because Elimelech Silberberg pf the Sara Tugman Bais Chabad Torah Center in West Bloomfield, Michigan decided to confront/attack HaRav Belsky here in Yeshiva World News and not either in person or within the vehicle in which the article appeared that he found insensitive.
Elimelech was wrong in his choice of expressing his view of HaRav Belsky in the manner in which he did and the words that he choose. He had other avenues to address the issue and with kovod he choose the way with the most harm and the least kovod.
The rest of the confrontations and attacks that have been posted here, particularly on Gedolim (past or present) and even each other that have appeared here throughout many of the 100plus posts are also most inappropriate.
From another Jewish website, about pamphlets about the rebbe stolen from a Chabad yeshiva:
On Motzoei Shabbos, when the bochurim came to open the locker with the pamphlets inside they found that vandals had broken into the locker, took out 200 pamphlets and stole personal belongings of the bochurim.
The reason for this vandalism, one bochur told Shturem.net, apparently stems from the fact that these pamphlets don’t have the word “shlitah” after the Rebbe’s name.
well, zalman, you have posted a long posting with, ostensibly, comments by past gedolim on Zionists and- at time, on Eretz Yisroel. I suspect it is a pamphlet of the despicable neturei karta, who could not care less if six mllion jews died again but I prefer to address the quotations themselves.
FIRST, most of these quotes (except maybe reb Elchonon and Rav Hutner) are of the “once said” kind. Well, this is totally misleading because “once said” means nothing. There is no way of checking its accuracy, there is no way of knowing its context so, in truth , I could totally ignore it. I ABSOLUTELY do NOT believe, for one moment, that the Chofetz Chaim EVER said what you quote. I also do not believe many of the other quotes. In addition, many of the quotes are from people (Rav Hirsch, Reb Sholom Dov Scheersohn, Reb Shmhel Diskin) who died years BEFORE Zionism even existed.
You quote Rav Brach from Kasho, who is surprised at the Agudah! mind you,who are telling people to go live in Israel. Well, those people survived the war BECAUSE they listened to their Rabbonim.
In short, you have chosen some very selective quotes from the distant past that cannot be checked and many are fully taken out of context.
The irony of your pamphlet is that your quote from Rev Elchonon (in writing ,I imagine) about the “medinah’ bringing the Redemption CLOSER is EXACTLY what the Religious Zionists have been saying for years (based on a Rambam) that, regardless of who brought us back to Eretz Yisroel, it is the “Jad Hashem” that did it, to bring us closer to the geulah. Yout quote actually PROVES our point!
Rav Hutner zz’l had his own view about the Holocaust but he went to LIVE in Eretz ysroel in the the 1970’s and his son-in-law has a thriving yeshivah in Har Nof. I highly doubt that he ever would acquiesce to the evil statements of today’s neturei karta, who prefer Arab rule to what we have today.
Lastly, you have used some very selective and doubtful quotes while totally ignoring the huge amount of writings from Gedolim ,ranging from the early Rishonim till today,who advocated “alyah” (yes, alyah) and the actual establishment of a homeland.
But then, you could not care less about anyone who does not agree to your warped shittah. Well, as I said previously, continue in your way and eat your heart out at the success of our “treife medinah” and grind your teeth at seeing so much Torah floursh in the ‘evil medinah”
berlin, “success” of the medinah? You never fail to provide a good laugh.
That Chofetz Chaim quote is famous. The Chofetz Chaim has long credentials as an anti-zionist. And Reb Sholom Dovber Schneersohn was niftar in 1920, long after the advent of zionism. So please get your facts straight before spewing.
Insofar as Kastner is concerned, its been long proven beyond the slightest doubt that he was in cahoots with Eichmann and responsible for the destruction of Hungarian Jewry, that it is laughable that you Zionist even try to debate established facts (as was pointed out so many unnecessary times above.) Its quite laughable that cantoresq stoops to Wikipedia to try to salvage that Zionist Jew murderer. (FWIW Hecht was an Oscar winning playwright and a bona fide Zionist. He even created a screenplay called “A flag is born” celebrating the establishment of the medina! He of all people admitted to the Zionist crimes.)
And cantoresq, the appeal was only a partial reversal — and even that was a split verdict. That Kastner protected Kurt Becher, even the Zionist appeals court couldn’t deny (in as much as 3 out of 5 did reverse the other 2 counts — coming immediately on the heels of Kastners killing and sympathy — and considering the entire Zionist/Israeli establishment was trying to cover their tracks and their Supreme Court could be expected no less of.)
(Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Devarim):
The Torah teaches us not to resist the nations even when they fight against us. We must follow in the footsteps of Yaakov Avinu in his encounter with his brother Esav. As the Ramban writes in Vayishlach, all that happened between Yaakov and Esav happens to us constantly with Esav’s children. We must adopt the methods of that tzaddik, to make the three preparations that he made: prayer, a gift, and escape through war, that is, to flee to safety. As long as we walked on that well- tread path, G-d saved us from their hands. But since we have strayed from the path and new leaders have arisen who chose new methods, leaving behind our ancestors’ weapons and adopting the methods of our enemies, we have fared worse and worse, and great travails have befallen us.
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In response to the desire of the secular Zionist leaders to develop a nation like all the nations, the Chofetz Chaim cited the following prophetic warning to the People of Israel:
The Zionist leaders claimed that we can have a successful and lasting return to the Land without fulfilling the Torah. In response to this claim, the Chofetz Chaim would remind the people that even before we entered the Land, the Giver of the Land told us that our stay in this sacred place is conditional upon our fulfillment of the Torah.
The secular Zionist leaders also claimed that we do not need to fulfill the precepts of the Torah in order to develop a great nation in the Land that would gain the admiration of all the other nations. In response to this claim, the Chofetz Chaim cited the following message that Moses gave to our people when we stood at the border of the Land:
Guys please! Zionism is literally in its death throes. Let the Ribono Shel Olam continue to do his work, and this machla will soon be gone! Whats the point of all this bickering?
catnores: how did kasztner select people for his train? i’ve wondered about that for awhile. you asked someone above for documentation that he sold tickets for profit, so i assume you don’t know yourself, since you are asking. but if you do, kindly would you share that information?
i’ve actually seen in the past authoritative information that most of the slots were taken by his family and friends. whatever was left i don’t know, but pray tell why would a sworn zionist like kasztner voluntarily select the satmar rebbe (the biggest anti-zionist in all of occupied europe) given he was in control of who got on? (if he was just trying to prove that he wasn’t just choosing his own, why not some less rabid anti-zionist?) that is the million dollar question to me.
what also needs explanation is why eichmann agreed to give kasztner this escape train to switzerland. obviously eichmann must’ve gotten something in return from kasztner. all evidence proves that kasztner kept the jews in hungary quiet (by withholding the information that eichmann was planning their extermination), so they wouldn’t riot opposing deportation to aushwitz, since eichmann didn’t want a repeat of the warsaw uprising. a long time ago i looked into these historical records and it was proven by all unaffiliated experts on this historical period that kasztner was essentially a nazi who coincidentally was of jewish ethnic background. (i don’t care about crony baloney, one of many outstanding proofs of this is that even a zionist court which has every interest to prove his innocence if he had been innocent, would admit his guilt with a court conviction, regardless of future appeals.)
it seems to me that you will try to delegitimize anyone who proves kasztners guilt. so be it. but if you have any information how he made the selections, i’d like to hear it.
Except perhaps for the first few sessions, Kastner never came to me fearful of the Gestapo strong man. We negotiated entirely as equals. People forget that. We were political opponents trying to arrive at a settlement, and we trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he were in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.
Zalman
Member
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .
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Zalmen, you’re acusing a Jew of actively participating in the annihilation of European Jewry. Your basis is Vrba’s conjecture? How does Vrba know what Kasztner did with the report? Was Vrba present whan Ksztner allegedly disclosed the report to Eichmann? Vrba made those accusations up after the war becuase he was frutrated that his report wasn’t publicized sooner. Eye witness reports say that Kasztner agonized over how to hanld the report, ultimately giving it to the Swedish legate in Hungary and other Hungarian members of the resistance. So much for that nonsense.
Regarding Kasztner wearing a uniform, many Jews wore Nazi uniforms as protetion. Pinchas Rosenbaum the son of the last Ravof Kleinwardein famously wore one and “arrested” Jews and brought them to the Glass House for protection. I don’t know if Kasztner ever wore an SS uniform or not. Nor do I care. But if you’re going to accuse a Jew of the genocide of Jews you need better proof than Ben Hecht and the accusations of someone who could not have been there to know what happened. I do know that over 1000 Jews got a train orchestrated by Reszo Kasztner, the Satmer Rov and the Belzer Rebbe amongst them. I know they all survivied the war because of him. All you seem to know are oft repeated facts devoid of any real evidence.
Fellow Zionists (Judge Halevi, Ben Hecht, et al), Fellow Nazis (Adolf Eichmann, et al), and Fellow Jews (Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl, et al) all made incriminating statements towards Kastner yet cantoresq and rabbiofberlin remain in denial. Who cares for these Nazi apologists? G-d himself could come down and convict Kastner, and cantoresq and rabbiofberlin will still remain in denial.
cantoresq:
“Kasztner agonized over how to hanld the report, ultimately giving it to the Swedish legate in Hungary and other Hungarian members of the resistance.”
Baloney. Read the Kastner trial transcripts. Where do you ever come up with this gobbledigook?
He should’ve PUBLICIZED the report, so Hungarian Jewry would resist. (But that would have killed his “gentleman’s agreement” with Eichmann.)
Joseph,YUP, we will continue to be in total denial to your words because we (pashute yid,cantoresq,and others) have one very simple advantage over all of you: ONE THOUSAND AND SEVEN HUNDRED JEWS, amongst them one person called Reb Joel Teitelbaum and many names I can quote but will not ,protecting their identity. Some are the grandchildren of one of the great Poskim of the previous dor. You see, Joseph, WE, the apikorsim have some gray hair and follow the mishnah ” al todin es chavercho at shetagya limkomo”. You and your colleagues obviously have excised this maamar chazal.
AND I WILL NOT BE MOICHEL YOU for the quote “who cares for these Nazi apologists”, meaning me and some others. That is indeed the most despicable thing you have written on this website. GO protect your resho-im, the neturei karta and ,come jom hadin, they will ask you to come ask mechilan of me,lest they return you to the place you deserve.
Regardinog the Kasztner affair, I think some perspective is needed. At the outset there is a big difference between mistakes in judgment, negligence and intentional harm. The standards by which we judge someone change with each level of complicity. When it comes to mistakes of judgement, we need to evaulate what was the standard of conduct? Moreover, we have to avoid judging a situation with the advantage of hindsight. To establish negligence, one must prove that a reasonable person would have acted differently in the same situation. Intentional harm requires malice aforethought. As I will demonstrate, Kasztner at best made some blunders in judgment and nothing more, if even that.
What are the facts as we know them? Kasztner was a Hungarian lawyer/journalist who at the time of the German invasion of Hungary was living in Budapset. As a Zionist leader in Hungary he had certain entre with Hungarian officialdom. both Jewish and non-Jewish. We know he negotiated with Eichmann and with Kurt Becher, that a trainload of Jews left Budapest and arrived in Switzerland via Bergen Belsen. Those are the undisputed facts. Now let’s fill in some blanks with accusations and analysis of them.
Let’s begin with a minor issue, the Vrba/Wetzler report. There is some dispute as to whther Kasztner was given a copy of the report in German or Hungarian. If he was given a German copy, it would have to have been translated, which takes time. But the accusation is that Kasztner 1)actively supressed the report or 2) delayed transmitting it or 3) actually used it as a tool to negotiate with Eichmann to his personal benefit and the destruction of other Jews. Nonne of the people who level any of the three accusations were actually in Budapest at any of the relevant times. How can they therefore know what Kasztner intended or did? Let’s look at each claim though and see what culpability we could find if they are true. ACTIVE SUPRESSION: Why might he have done that? Perhaps he wanted verification of allegations that on their face seemed outlandish. After all an atrocity such as Auschwitz had never been known in human history prior to WWII. Perhaps he feared that the Jewish reaction to the deportations would have resulted in greater and more immediate loss of life and therefore he supressed the report in order to negotiate and cancel all deporatations of Hungarian Jews. Remember this was a “chess game” and the stakes were higher than we can ever imagine. I ignore the third possibility because there is no evidece at all that he was a monster. May it have been a mistake to delay/supress the report? perhaps. Would a reasonable person have acted differently? I’m not sure. Moreover, we know that he did not supress it but passed it on the Swedish legation and Hungarian resistance.
Let’s consider now the actual train. Accusers say that Kasztner was a criminal because he 1) charged for tickets on the train 2) put his family, friends and cronies on the train and 3) actually made a profit off it. It’s true that some people did buy there way onto the train. Most however were not charged. Why were seats sold? To pay Eichmann. The Allies blocked all attempts at sending money for bribes. Neither the Zionist movement not the joint in Europe had sufficient funds to send to Kasztner. So Kasztner, in an attempt to appear as if he had the money, took it from those passengers who had what to give. BTW, in the end Kasztner paid about 1/10th the agreed upon price, and that money was later confiscated by the Allies. Places on the train were split up between the different communities and groups extant in Budapest. The Neologs, Orthodox, Zionist and other groups were asked to submit lists of proposed passengers. I don’t know how seats ultimtaely were allotted. Kasztner and his associates made that decision. But it was impossible to save everyone; should he have therfore saved no one? Indeed he did put his wife and father in law on the train. So what? He also put the Satmer Rov and the Belzer Rebbe (no friends of his to be sure, even after the fact) on the train Anyone would have done the same. As to the profit accusation, show me the money. No there is nothing to accuse Kasztner of here.
KURT BECHER: Kasztner supplied him a crucial affidavit in his application for de-nazification. This was a huge blunder which I cannot explain. But at the same time, no one died or was harmed as a result. It’s also possible that Kasztner genuinely felt that Becher was no such a villain. Assuming he did feel this way, there was no ethiacal impreitive to assist this cog int he Nazi killing machine. But no one died as a result.
When you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. Kasztner, due to the forces of history laid down with the dirtiest dog of them all. Sure he made errors in judgment and even miscalculated. But can anyone actually say that s/he would have done differently; that s/he could have done better; that Kasztner should have known better? The evidence clearly says no.
Fellow Zionists (Judge Halevi, Ben Hecht, et al), Fellow Nazis (Adolf Eichmann, et al), and Fellow Jews (Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl, et al) all made incriminating statements towards Kastner yet cantoresq and rabbiofberlin remain in denial. Who cares for these Nazi apologists? G-d himself could come down and convict Kastner, and cantoresq and rabbiofberlin will still remain in denial.
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First off, ultimately Kasztner was completely vindicated by the Supreme Court of Israel. Ben Hecht, Rav Weissmandl and Rudolf Vrba were not in Budapest and could not know what happened. If one wants to rely on the word of Eichmann over the historical record, feel free.
BTW for the first time ever you’ve truly enraged me. My grandparents, uncle and a host of cousins died in Auschwitz. I grew up experienceing my father’s horror at what eh endured under the Nyilas party. Where I to ever meet you, I’d probably beat you within an inch of your life for calling me a “Nazi apologist” you smug arrogant punk.
Doc
Member
catnores: how did kasztner select people for his train? i’ve wondered about that for awhile. you asked someone above for documentation that he sold tickets for profit, so i assume you don’t know yourself, since you are asking. but if you do, kindly would you share that information?
i’ve actually seen in the past authoritative information that most of the slots were taken by his family and friends. whatever was left i don’t know, but pray tell why would a sworn zionist like kasztner voluntarily select the satmar rebbe (the biggest anti-zionist in all of occupied europe) given he was in control of who got on? (if he was just trying to prove that he wasn’t just choosing his own, why not some less rabid anti-zionist?) that is the million dollar question to me.
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What “authoritative information” have you seen? Please share it with us. As far as I know various groups in Budapest submitted lists of proposed passengers, and seats were then alloted based upon availibility and the making “Sophie’s choice” type decisions. As far as I know, Kasztner’s wife, Bogyo and father in law were Joszef Fischer were the only members of his family on the train.
to will hill, you write that the quote by the chofetz chaim (equating zionism to amalek)was well known. Well known by whom? I have never heard of it and why should I beleive you about this? Also, how old was the chofetz chaim when he said it? After all, most of your colleagues here have said that the rebbe zz’l was senile the last twenty- five years of his life- (see matisjohu) maybe the chofets chaim was senile too? Yeah-yeah-you are going to accuse me of “zilzul rabbonim” but this is what you have done throughout this whole posting on the rebbe zz’l and other Gedolim.
Secondly, you bring down two quotes from the chofets chaim al hatorah. First, I have to see it in the original -in loshon kodesh- because I do not believe for one moment that the chofets chaim changed the meaning of the word “letefilah, ledoron ULEMICHOMO” to mean that ‘lemilchomo’ means fleeing. Not only is it impossible to condone this as a Pshat but ,if you read the whole Parsha there, it is obvious that yaakov was prepared for real war.
Concerning your other long quote, you (and all the other detractors) keep on harping on the godlessness of Zionism,etc….Never ,for one moment, do you address the religious aspect of Zionism, namely the shittah of the Netzic (before Zionism), Rav Kook and a multitude of other Gedolim. Obviously, you don’t want to do this because then you won’t have whom to beat with a stick,as it is clear that this shittah is total accord with halacha and Poskim and it is being hugely succesfull.
But you and your cohorts are so invested in your own prejudices that you have no choice but to be totally blind to reality and turn a blind eye to the possibility of six million Yidden perishing to justify your own false gods. SAD .
and to chuck schwab- your asinine comments don’t merit a reply but I suggest you go to your gemach and borrow money for a plane trip to Eretz Yisroel. Take a good look around you when you are there and tell me, on your return, about the “death throes of Zionism”
You see, there is the real world of Jerushalaim and Malchei yisroel and bnai berak and Ponevitz and kiryat vishnitz and belz and ashdod and Seret vishnitz….and a million other thriving frum communities and then, there is your world, filled with bitterness and jealousy, awash with anger and denial, truly a world in your own disutrbed mind, that has absolutely no connection to the real world.
And your quote ‘about allowing Hashem to do what He will do”. This smacks so much of the Holocaust that I find it vile and despicable. And you and your cohorts accuse Kastner of selling out Hungarian jewry? You are selling out six million jews in our eretz hakdosha with your veiled comments. Beware of what you are saying….you are treading o nthin ground…….
will hill, on ONE item you are right. The rebbe Rashab (reb sholom ber)who is quoted did die in 1920. So, at least you got one thing right.
To say that the chofetz chaim was ‘an anti-zionist” is redundant. Even I admit that most of the European gedolim were against zionism in the early part of the twentieth century. So what? A couple of small things happened after those early years, like the Holocaust, the establishment of Israel, the Six-day War, the resurgence IN ISRAEL of the chassidische courts and the litvishe yeshivas…all of that and more.
You and your colleagues keep on harping on an old theme- anti-zionism- that is totally “oisgesphielt”. It is not relevant anymore! My belief in the medinah may differ from the gerrer’s chossdi belief in the medinah. BUT BOTH of us are thankful for our homeland, BOTH of us accpet its legitimacy today and BOTH of us wil lwork to make it a continuing success.
Sadly, you and your colleagues in the US don’t seem to grasp the reality of Eretz Yisrole and of its “nitzhchyus”.
joseph: they are not being apologetic toward this kastener fellow, they are asking why the satmer rov didn’t thank him, regardless of him maybe being a rosho. he still saved the rebbes life. yes, did hakadosh baruch hu orchestrate it – yes, but that is the stupidest most dumb reason not to thank someone. because technically with that train of thought, a thank you is never in order, as really no one does anything for anybody, hashem is doing it all. sorry, but simple hilchos derech eretz and hakaros hatov mandate that when someone does something for you, you thank them, and the rebbe didnt, hence their questioning. and if the rebbe was so hell bent on thinking it all came from hahsem, why didnt he honor hashem as the guest of honor instead of all his big donors, at his melava malkas? after all hashem gave him the money?
Will Hill
Member
cantoresq:
“Kasztner agonized over how to hanld the report, ultimately giving it to the Swedish legate in Hungary and other Hungarian members of the resistance.”
Baloney. Read the Kastner trial transcripts. Where do you ever come up with this gobbledigook?
He should’ve PUBLICIZED the report, so Hungarian Jewry would resist. (But that would have killed his “gentleman’s agreement” with Eichmann.)
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Mr. Hill, you’ve read the 3000+ pages of trial transcript? Pray tell, where can one find a copy of it? You’ve read nothing beyond Hecht (if even that much) and no nothing more than the drivel that the chareidishe velt accepts as fact, the evidence notwithstanding. What amzs me here is that you’re all so quick to rely on the trial court, but you totally ignore the appellate review. Why is that?
cantoresq:
“What amzs me here is that you’re all so quick to rely on the trial court, but you totally ignore the appellate review. Why is that?”
You fail to understand that the appeal is besides the point. First of all the appeal fully upheld one of the findings against Kastner (his false defense for Kurt Becher). Secondly the other 3 points, the appeal split 3-2. Thirdly, the very fact a ZIONIST court admitted his collaboration with the Nazis speaks volumes. It was in their interest to deny it. If there was an iota of basis to deny it, they would. The appeal (on the 3-2 counts) was due to sympathy for his recent killing and to cover up the Zionists murderous sins. Its no chiddush. And even that was a split verdict.
I’ve browsed through it some time ago. It isn’t “3,000 pages”. BTW even Kastners defenders have admitted that he did fill the train mostly with family and friendly Zionists of his.
mariner: Your question was answered multiple times in this thread already. Read back. There is nothing to thank for, to such a murderer.
I can’t believe this issue becomes so heated (understandably) that people say crazy things, and people are unforgiving of it (especially so close to Elul/R.H.) People should realize the passion these issues raise (6 Million Jews killed, etc.) and take the heat of the moment into account before being so unforgiving. Please be more forgiving! (everyone.)
I’m sure every one of us has said things in our past (online and offline) either that we regretted right away or we didn’t mean as it was said or sounded. One should certainly be forgiving.
cantoresq: the trains passenger list is public information available on the website kastners defenders setup, that you provided on the previous page. it is untenable to deny that it is mostly constituted of kastners cronies. (ironically, we keep hearing in the news from zionist circles, including recently, that “new information” exonerates kastner. obviously the zionist themselves ad hayom hazeh realize this is a black mark that they cannot so easily coverup that they still feel the need to defend themselves 50-60 years later.)
you still haven’t responded to my query for what reason on earth did eichmann agree to provided this train to kastner. there must’ve been some benefit to eichmann coming from kastner for eichmann to make such a monumental arrangement on kastners behalf.
you ask other for their sources. what is your sources for all your claims?
My intent was to say “Zionist apologist”, so my apologies for the unfortunate phrase above. With the near constant shrill attacks on Rabbonim, I fail to see the justification for both of your intense taking umbrage when the shoe is on the other foot. I seem to particularly recall rabbiofberlin regretting a statement made in person with Think Big, how ever comparable or not. Nevertheless, please both accept my regrets for that phrase.
BTW, and I’ve mentioned this on previous occasion, I too am of holocaust-surviving Jewish Hungarian descent (as cantoresq) and lost families-full of relatives.
Joseph, I did regret making a certain statement ONCE and ,if you remember, I asked mechillah from all. I also promised never to use that phrase again.I will accept your apologies and I will tell you that I am very proud to be an “apologist” for the Zionists and for the medinah. My very voluminous postings show why I believe in that shittah today, in spite of its many shortcomings. You (and others) have strongly disagreed. So be it. At least, this is par for this course.I have not made attacks of any kind on rabbonim and you can check that too.
As far as the story of Kastner, what I fail to understand is why you and other detractors of Kastner are so vehement about this episode of the Holocaust. I came into this some time ago and my only consistent position has been that no one knows what really happened. I came to Kastner’s defense because I think that no one knows the real story and especially in view of the fact that who knows how WE would have reacted in those difficult moments.
I can only come to the conclusion that, on this website, Kastner stands in for all those ‘evil Zionists” and you and all the others are assuaging your conscience on the Holocaust by painting those “evil Zionists” in the blackest way.
In reality, this is a sterile debate. I prefer to talk about Eretz yisroel today and yes, the success of the Medinah. You will disagree but at least, this is a real debate.
You fail to understand that the appeal is besides the point. First of all the appeal fully upheld one of the findings against Kastner (his false defense for Kurt Becher). Secondly the other 3 points, the appeal split 3-2. Thirdly, the very fact a ZIONIST court admitted his collaboration with the Nazis speaks volumes. It was in their interest to deny it. If there was an iota of basis to deny it, they would. The appeal (on the 3-2 counts) was due to sympathy for his recent killing and to cover up the Zionists murderous sins. Its no chiddush. And even that was a split verdict.
I’ve browsed through it some time ago. It isn’t “3,000 pages”. BTW even Kastners defenders have admitted that he did fill the train mostly with family and friendly Zionists of his.
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The apeal is besides the point because you want it to be. But it is the crux of the issue. Why do you assume that the appellate court was more plotically motivated and corrupt than the lower court? It seems that when Zionists happen to do that with which you agree you accept the action as significant. but when they do something you don’t like, it’s due to something nefarious. That’s a great dialectic to adopt over chulent and kigel noch davenen, but it isn’t goind to get you far in serious inquiry. In the end he was exonerated. Moreover, he was not found to have collaborated. He was found to have assisted Becher AFTER THE WAR. That’s a far cry from collaboration at the time of the genocide. And I admit that Kasztner’s actions in this regard confound me. His wife felt it was because he had made a promise and kept his word. I ascribe it to a combination of PTSD, frustration and bitterness. That affidavit was his last chance to be a macher. Which defenders admit that he filled the train with his cronies? Provide me a source. I’ve based most of my writing on this subject on two sources: The AJC’s rejoinder to Perfidy and Anna Porter’s recently published book, Ksztner’s Train. What are your sources?
Doc
Member
cantoresq: the trains passenger list is public information available on the website kastners defenders setup, that you provided on the previous page. it is untenable to deny that it is mostly constituted of kastners cronies. (ironically, we keep hearing in the news from zionist circles, including recently, that “new information” exonerates kastner. obviously the zionist themselves ad hayom hazeh realize this is a black mark that they cannot so easily coverup that they still feel the need to defend themselves 50-60 years later.)
you still haven’t responded to my query for what reason on earth did eichmann agree to provided this train to kastner. there must’ve been some benefit to eichmann coming from kastner for eichmann to make such a monumental arrangement on kastners behalf.
you ask other for their sources. what is your sources for all your claims?
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I’ve seen the list of Egon Mayer’s site. Where does it say that most of the passenger’s were Kasztner’s cronies? you state that it’s “untenable to deny” that fact. Why is it untenable? Based on what piece of serious scholarship or credible evidence do you base that assertion. And then please answer how it is that the Satmer Rov and the Belzer Rebbe made it on if all Kasztner wanted was to save his family and friends. I believe that Eichmann truly believed that worldwide Jewry would pay his ransom for Hungary’s Jews. Germany needed the money at that point. Becher, based on Porter’s book got involved to create favorable evidence in the event he would ever be put on trial.
My sources are primarily Anna Porter’s book, and the AJC rejoinder to Perfidy. Yours are?
My intent was to say “Zionist apologist”, so my apologies for the unfortunate phrase above. With the near constant shrill attacks on Rabbonim, I fail to see the justification for both of your intense taking umbrage when the shoe is on the other foot. I seem to particularly recall rabbiofberlin regretting a statement made in person with Think Big, how ever comparable or not. Nevertheless, please both accept my regrets for that phrase.
Posted 3 hours ago #
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I suggest you proofread mroe carefully in the future. This was no mere typo; rather Freud’s concept of parapraxis comes to mind. Moreover there is a big difference between writing critical comments about rabbis on a form called “Yeshiva World” and calling someone a Nazi apologist. I hope you appreciate that.
cantoresq,
If a Soviet trial court had the courage to convict Stalin of genocide and was subsequently “overturned” by the Soviet Supreme, the fact that a SOVIET TRIAL COURT had the audacity to tell the world who Stalin is, is far more telling and meaningful than any subsequent “reversal” by the “Soviet Supreme”.
Clearly you buy hook line and sinker the so-called “defense” his defenders like the AJC will put out. The historical evidence viewed by any reasonable observer clearly and unambiguously demonstrate his guilt. I again refer you to the trial record, Hecht (despite your ad hominem attacks on him without addressing his sourced evidence) and the voluminous testimonies of nearly all those intimately and directly involved in the events of the time (from all sides – Jewish, Zionist, and Nazi.)
Nevertheless, I expect you to reject any reasonableness and continue your unreasonablenesses based upon your stated positions so far.
chazan’l,
Here is the proofread-corrected version of your submission:
mroe = more
Your Editor
and
form = forum
(even your editor is subject to error!)
Will Hill:
Last I checked Israel never resembled to Soviet Union. If, as you assert, the Israeli Supreme Court acted as a kangaroo Court in exonerating Kasztner. why was Justice Silberg allowed to write a dissent focusing on the Vrbo/Wetzler report? Please spare me youe baselss conspircy theories.
Again, for the third time, please refer me to the “reasonable observers,” you mention, please tell me where one can find the trial transcipt and supply references to it to back up your assertions. Hecht’s book is not sourced as it happens. He gave no footnotes, rendering his book uesless as a piece of scholarship. As regards the testimonies to which you refer,again identify them, and also please explain the way in which you determine how you weigh the various testimony and justify your methodology. For example who might you believe more, Hansi Brand’s version of what happened, or Rudolph Vrba’s? Hansi Brand or Moshe Schweiger? Saly Mayer or Joel Brand? Otto Komoly or Fulop Freudiger? It’s very difficult to divorce personal bias from the stories told my witnesses and determine what of their testimony is actual recollection and what is post facto editorialising. One must also be careful not to allow his personal biases to interfere with his analysis of the evidence. How might you go about doing that? You’ve suggested that I’m unreasonable and biased. In responde I’ve supplied you with the sources I’ve relied upon. I’ve asked you to name your sources, and aside from Hecht, who cannot be relied upon for anything given his celar and palpable bias, have supplied no other sources. Joseph, who mistakenly called me a “Nazi apologist” seems to (ironically) rely on Eichmann’s interview with Life magazine as more dispositive than the eye witness accounts and documents that form the backbone of Porter’s research. But generally you and your coterie on this subject aoppear to rely ont he age old tactic of repeating something over and over again until it is accepted a true. Sorry aint gonna work here no more. BTW, I’ve come to learn from digging around the internet in response to this conversation, that Professor Yehuda Bauer, a well respected Holocaust historian rejects Vrba’s take on Kasztner completely. But scholarship isn’t nearly as important to you as the mikveh reid myth you prefer.
It may be interesting to note that all the gedolim that are currently being criticized here, were totally immersed in Torah and steeped in Kedusha in the most amazing way. (They did not spend their days arguing in the Yeshiva World Cofee Room). We ought to be more careful what we say
Actually cantoresq, it would be far more appropriate for you to direct your attacks on the Rabbis on a site called Reform World, rather than Yeshiva World. What position are you in to be critical of them? Do you consider yourself to be a greater man than them? And you have been far more invective against them than the slight you suffered here. You have gone so far as to insinuate that they are complicit to murder.
Why has Israeli “democracy” feared the truth and felt compelled to ban Perfidy and confiscate any copies it could get its dirty hands on, for decades?
“Academic research” is the liberal and Zionists age-old method of attempting to suppress and or change the “truth” to their liking. Anything that does not fit their story line, is deemed “non-academic”, “non-historic”, “unverifiable”, and “not research worthy” (or “unresearched.”) Repeating their lies over and over is the other trick they pull out of their hat. Suppressing any evidence not their liking is their strong-armed tactic.
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