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Toi
It’s HASHEM who gave us the gift of bechira, how we choose to live our lives, so that we can earn our schar.
There are plenty of people who have increased their Yiddishkeit due to this technology and others who were in fact INTRODUCED to Yiddishkeit because of it.
I can understand if someone chooses not to own it (pun intended), but to blame someone else for one’s misbehavior??
Toi, I was just going to say what ayc said. Why judge someone solely on negativity and what others may have chosen to do? Look at the positive side, or at least try to find something positive!
Can somebody please answer my question that I posted earlier.
Why don’t we say BD”E on a non jew. I really want to know.
Presumably because we are not so torn up that the only positive thing we can think of is that G-d is just.
I just read a cute line:
Three apples changed the world forever – The first was bit into by Adam and Eve, the second fell on Newton’s head, and the third was offered to the world by Steve Jobs.
Toi- “thousands of neshamos were corrupted with ipods”.
And tens of thousands were corrupted with the internet. Are you going to blame Al Gore?!!
And tens of thousands are dying because of global warming. Lets blame Al Gore!!!
And the economy stinks. Lets blame Bush!!
“Jobs” are lost under Obama. Lets blame Bush!!
Why dont we each start taking responsibility for our awn actions. Adam HaRishon wasn’t excused after blaming Chava.
Toi, your comments while amusing, never seem to have any clear statistical evidence….
Steve Jobs changed the world, and changed the way people “consume content”. He left the world a more entertained place. But did he leave the world a better place? Hard to say “yes”.
Bill Gates is giving his billions to charities which he thinks can improve the world. Whether you or I agree with the choices is irrelevant. He is TRYING to improve it, not just make money off it.
{ Does this have good click-thoughs?}
mike- certain points, i would propose, do not need a bibliography afterward to prove theyre true. there are over 1000 cares in NYC. do i need to prove it?now, growing up as a bochur in this age when ipods became super-popular, i personally witnesed tens of bochurim who became exposed to content that was, at best, objectionable. i stated before that if this is our yeidas hadoros it would have happened anyway, but im takind issue with the fact that if Hashem chose this man to supply the means then that should open our eyes as to how we should view him. i gave an example of a murderer bishogeig- he was “only” the shliach, but chazal say he was guilty and dserved the oinesh. all im saying is that we dont have to be so quick to thankn the man for giving us all this stuff; lets lok a bit harder at whats not skin deep.
yungerman- whoever invented the internet just might be hard pressed achar me’ah vi’esrim to explain the spiritual damage to countless neshamos. im not sure why you think thats a taaneh- theres a reason why gedolim assur it. :-/. bad economies werent invented by presidents. moot point. kinda not so smart, no? and while you are right that people have bechira, there is a gemara that asks in certain situations how its physically possible not to do aveiros. he definitely was misayeiya in loads of aveiros. why is this so difficult to understand? obviously not everyone whos ever used an ipod has been damaged by it, but ask yourself if you havent come into contact with at least one issur because of one; if you have then ive made my point.
600 , So, all the Yeshivas that get big donations from frum businessmen whose factories are in China should, by your logic, should no longer accept them.
Steve Jobs life was public so we know all of his negatyives. So, before any shul or Yeshiva honors someone wealthy, let’s make sure sure we investigate their private lives and thier business practices
lesschumras- its funny you should make that point. i personally know of several yeshivos that only accept money from sources they know are pure- either because they personally trust the donor cuz hes erlich or the like. the money they take get from other sources goes to toilet paper. i guess you think like a rosh yeshiva!
josh- shaychis…i think the correlation between viewing objectionable content and ipods is more readily understandable. i still cant understand why everyone wants to be matzdik this guy.
An ipod may help arouse the Taavah for real issur, but shoes get you there.
You can download SHAS for Kindle or iPad for 99 Cents
You can download Tanach for 99 cents too
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Zahavasdad, as usual, is being disingenuous and not giving us the full story. He is now guilty of genevas daas, because he just caused me to waste my precious time, right when I’m trying to get things done in time for Yom Tov, looking for this when all it amounts to is the dubious Rodkinson translation of Shas, poorly formatted, and the JPS Tanach that I and others hold can be read in the beis kisse.
What Zehavasdad did is the same as me giving directions to the women’s mikve if a man asks me where you can toivel in my area. I wouldn’t even do that to my worst enemy on Peerim.
I and others come to this board to get away from the free-for-all, LH and rechilus, unchecked facts, nivul peh, any self-hater or left-wing koifer is a godol, atmosphere of certain other sites. Most of the worst apples are BH gone and ranting in the juvey hall, but we have a couple left.
Toi: All anyone is saying is that he created things which will help mankind in many ways. For the Goyim his technologies will definitely move forward the human condition. Jews have to choose whether to use his devices well or poorly. But those who were not strong enough to resist temptation eventually would have found other ways to go off. It’s not like music or TV shows on an iPod are the only way to see/hear things one shouldn’t.
What a zchus the guy who invented the gun, the atom bomb, and gas chambers must be receiving in gan eden!
Atom bombs don’t kill people, people kill people.
sam2- i already said it wouldve happened anyways- twice. Hashem made him tyhe guy to introduce things that pulled dozens, if not hundreds, of people off the D. you werent the guy, jobs was. that means something.it probably means something not so good. so we shouldnt celebrate this man. thats all im saying, and i think its quite understandable.
Not Himmeldik
How do you compare the gas chambers to the computer?
That’s so outrageous and you need to ask mechila from anyone who suffered through the camps.
You obviously didn’t go through the concentration camps or you would never have lumped this together.
I never said anything about China :). I do not believe Apple products were knowingly made with slave labor; Foxcomm is as legitimate as you can get in China and there is just no way to make these parts in the US or anywhere else. Until automation is allowed to replace expensive and entrenched union workers, the US will not be a center for mass-market manufacturing and in any case the Chinese are ahead with automation as well.
Jothar really hit the nail on the head. Steve Jobs produced entertainment – if he did license the operating systems it would be a different story because prices would dip and different manufacturers would issue different feature sets. Apple and Pixar are both technological entertainment.
I was out shopping for a new “communications device” today and I was just shocked by how expensive an iPad is compared to a comparable Acer Android model. (I don’t know the prices in the US – this could be because of the way Apple is distributed in Ukraine.) I’m not ready to buy until at least a month after the yomim toivim end so I did not check carefully but I saw no reason to pay $400 more for the Apple and be locked into their apps.
ayc, You should ask mechila from those that lost their neshoma (which much worse than losing ones guf) thanks to destructive technology.
NotHimmeldik
A mechutzaf, too.
You’ll not find me often speaking in such a manner, if at all.
Why are you not taking issue with the creator of the knife?
After all, it’s killed people.
So what if its intention was to spread butter or the like.
The gas chambers were built SOLELY to inhumanely exterminate us…
The computer’s intent was not to destroy, as is the knife…
Intent is important all throughout halacha, whether a horeg b’shogeg or b’mayzid, etc.
It’s curious that you chose a German moniker along with your gas chamber remark
Such conceit, ayc. You harbor contempt for Yekkes too. One thing I can assure you, the inventor of the cellphone (and its far more sinister derivatives) murdered more souls in one year than the the knife killed in 100 years.
Every technological innovation has increased our ability to do both good and evil.
The humble shoes we wear had a much greater impact than the Ipod.
not himmeldik
If the computer is so bad, WHY are you ON IT?
Oh, right, you have a CHOICE
Unlike the people in the crematorium
Your attempt at telling me for whom I harbor contempt shows conceit.
It’s not Yiddishe Yekkes; one of the signs of a Yid is a rachaman, and there is no rachmanus here when comparing people who were put into ovens with no choice.
So since you’ve established that the computer is unilaterally evil, wishing you farewell…
not am yisrael, you lack any rachmanus on the yidden who tragically lost their neshamos to the iShmutz.
And you are still on the shmutzy computer-not practicing what you preach…so it’s apparently not as bad as all that…
ayc is right, mein herr. You show a lack of rachmanus to “yidden who tragically lost their neshamos to the iShmutz” by using one such infernal device. I know I certainly would never use a gas chamber for entertainment or for business, and if you feel that way about a computer but use it anyway…..
AYC:
Herr Himmel is a username with a ridiculous, provocative screen-name spewing ridiculous, provocative opinions. I smell a troll; don’t take him too seriously.
Everything in this world can be used for good or bad…teach your kids early how to use things for the good
mike- agreed. but if you give 13 year old a loaded gun you can expect at least some level of blame when he uses it.
I wonder if half the people who condem i-products even know what they really do
An iPod Plays AUDIO, its no different than a WALKMAN or a Cassette player
An iPhone is a small COMPUTER, it basically does the same thing as your computer abit on a smaller level
An iPad is a larger iPhone with a 10 inch LCD instead of a 2 inch LCD.
NONE of them are really new items, just different versions of stuff you already have
zdad- again your posts shift to try us to forget what we’re debating. if everyones computer had to be bolted to the side of an aron kodesh to operate and only when the bais was full and only when everyone could see, the amount of aveiros done would be, i would propose, lower? so it folows that anything which can be more secreted away, without the knowledge of anyone else, will cause graver consequences. duh. add wifi on all his doodads and welcome to aveiraland. enter jobsland. theyre BAD!!
And what is the difference between an iPad and a Laptop with internet access?
And what is the difference between an iPad and a Laptop with internet access?
And that is the reason I actually DONT own an ipad (or any other Apple product)
I am in the computer field and I cant tell you the difference between an iPad and a laptop with internet access (Other than style)
The portability, as Toi said, is the killer. A pocket computer can be much better hidden and easier to sin with.
Have you ever seen a Netbook?
They are quite portable and easily hid
I heard on a radio show by a computer world Mavin that Steve Jobs would fire people instantly willy-nilly in the company elevator if they could not answer a question he asked them on the spot. Clearly not a man to emulate or to shed tears over. By contrast in the Goyishe world, I hear reporters saying that people walked into Apple stores and started crying over his death. How can there be nothing of more gravity to cry over, especially not even knowing the person?! What vapid minds, hard to believe they were created in the Tzelem Elokim.
zdad-you cannot keep it in your pocket. you cannot walk out of BM and find a little nook where you can get wifi. you are clearly not so aquainted with todays teens. i would get up to date if i were you.
You cant put an iPad in your pocket and YOU CAN get 3G for a Netbook. They make a USB card for that.
I am more up to date than you think, its my job to know whats going on.
I dont have an iPhone either a(I dont own any Apple products) , but I do have an Android phone and the internet does work anywhere
you cant put a netbok in your pocket. i agree (obviously) that all handheld movie/internet capable things are just as bad- not only those with an apple logo. that doesnt make the ones with an apple loge less bad, farshtaist? which still makes their creator one bad dude. and this is going in circles so im done.
Quote from his speech at stanford in 2005:
When I was 17, I read a quote that went something like: “If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you’ll most certainly be right.” It made an impression on me, and since then, for the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: “If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?” And whenever the answer has been “No” for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something.
About a year ago I was diagnosed with cancer. I had a scan at 7:30 in the morning, and it clearly showed a tumor on my pancreas. I didn’t even know what a pancreas was. The doctors told me this was almost certainly a type of cancer that is incurable, and that I should expect to live no longer than three to six months. My doctor advised me to go home and get my affairs in order, which is doctor’s code for prepare to die. It means to try to tell your kids everything you thought you’d have the next 10 years to tell them in just a few months. It means to make sure everything is buttoned up so that it will be as easy as possible for your family. It means to say your goodbyes.
I lived with that diagnosis all day. Later that evening I had a biopsy, where they stuck an endoscope down my throat, through my stomach and into my intestines, put a needle into my pancreas and got a few cells from the tumor. I was sedated, but my wife, who was there, told me that when they viewed the cells under a microscope the doctors started crying because it turned out to be a very rare form of pancreatic cancer that is curable with surgery. I had the surgery and I’m fine now.
This was the closest I’ve been to facing death, and I hope it’s the closest I get for a few more decades. Having lived through it, I can now say this to you with a bit more certainty than when death was a useful but purely intellectual concept:
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
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