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Charlie
You and the wife are welcome to come to us (Flatbush) for RH so you can both attend shul.
I do find this MO psak most peculiar
The gantz Brooklyn / Lakewood black hat velt have been davening together for two plus months (without masks!!) with no deaths. Yet the MO Shuls won’t allow their members to daven like mentschen on the yomim norayim with precautions.
I don’t get itJDB,
Firstly, the fact that y can only point to one MO yeshiva (university) is exactly the point. (And one beis midrash… Lakewood and Mir alone have numerous packed batei Midrash.)Secondly, even if you are are right (all night, top learners, major poskim… hu???) which is quite debatable (I’m being courteous), the percentage of guys doing that in the YU system is very small given the number of students enrolled yeshiva college and riets. There are a few thousand guys in the institution, and very few of them are the way you described. Things always look better from the outside…
Thirdly, the vast majority of the serious learners in YU will NOT be sending their children to YU. They will be sending their children to the REGULAR Yeshiva systems in both EY and America. Many of the more serious learners in YU don’t even want to be there. It’s either parental pressure or other reasons which have forced them to be there and they are making the best of it. They don’t believe in it. Many/Most (obviously not all) of the YU rosh yeshivas sent their sons through the REGULAR yeshivas and daughters to regular BY’s and they are now part of the regular Charedi world, many of them learning full time in EY or Lakewood.
[In general, I’m not sure why it makes sense to compare the lowest caliber of the yeshiva system to the highest caliber of the non-yeshiva system… apples and apples….]
As I said, MO is terminally ill.
Common satchel
Examples:
1. Half of frum doctors are yeshivish
2. Most successful frum businessmen are chassidish or
Black hat
3. Average age in Y.I. is 75What were your sources
The growing numbers of the Chareidi community versus shrinking numbers of the MO community prove nothing other than different attitudes to family planning. Most people do not give thought to values and hashkofos, they just remain in the community they they were born in.
@Charlie Hall,
Its very nice that everyone is singing kumbaya in Riverdale, fact of the matter is the RCA, OU and YI banned anything to do with Avi Weiss and his ilk of open orthodox.@annyomus
I put out a list, can you match it with the one from the MO?“Is the old Salanter Yeshiva from Webster Avenue that moved to Riverdale 20+ years ago or thereabouts still operating and if so, would it come under the “MO” nomenclature??”
Yes, and yes. It is the “S” of the SAR schools after a three way merger in the 1970s. Oldtimers tell me that Salanter was a traditional European Yeshiva. However, SAR is similar to other MO day schools. It is co-ed.
There are three other Jewish schools in Riverdale. The Yeshiva of Telshe Alumni is in Riverdale; it is a traditional European-style Yeshiva. Ohavei Torah is another school in Riverdale; it combines a traditional yeshiva education with a very strong secular curriculum. Those are boy’s schools. There is also the Kinneret Day School, founded as a secular Zionist school. It now operates as a co-ed community day school; its top two leaders are orthodox rabbis. It really pushes bilingual education better than any other Jewish school I have seen in the US. Many religious families send their kids there.
“can only point to one MO yeshiva”
I used to be a YU prof but I actually agree that having only one MO yeshiva was a big problem. Many of its leaders have tried to slander and sabotage the second one, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, from its very start — even though Rabbi Avi Weiss was himself a YU professor and YU itself was trying to recruit Rabbi Dov Linzer to ITS faculty. It didn’t like competition. There are many MO yeshivot in Israel which is why MO religious Zionism is much stronger there. YU should have spun off many mini-YUs.
For those who are saying Elul, I am not gloating I am merely commenting on the article.
Fact is the MO community is shrinking, Yeshivat Rambam, Yeshiva Atlanta, Hebrew Academy of Suffolk all closed due to declining enrollment, Shulamit of Brooklyn sold its building and now rents a floor for its school.
ASHAR in Rockland took a hard turn to the right.
Of 25 or so MO shuls in Suffolk County only 2 have a daily minyan rest can hardly muster a minyan during shabbos.
That’s just two examples of shrinkage in the MO communityCommonsaychel,
You’ve cited anecdotal evidence for the shuls and your list is also anecdotal.
I don’t claim to know the numbers, I just am curious as to the data base your numbers come from@anonymous are you saying that MO community is growing?
I’m not saying anything or taking any position . You asked for examples of undocumented claims that you made. I’ve provided 3. I’m still waiting for you to provide your data source.
The MO has more wealthy people in the corporate world than the frum world does.
I did, It may not be to your liking, but the fact remains that the MO community is shrinking.
If you did, I missed your evidence that the average age of a YI shul goer is 75
Reb Zelik Epstein told me that if we would see the best in each other instead of looking for our chisronos we’d all be better off. This was in response to my asking him about modern orthodoxy and what I thought was treif about it.
@anonymous jew, you know what? the MO community is growing by leaps and bounds and new MO schools are opening right and left. Rabbi Schoenfeld is just being delusional. now your happy?
You could just say you made it up
Commonsaychel, you don’t seem to get it.I don’t care which position you take, you’re entitled to your point of view. as long as you don’t support your claims with unverifiable data . Or, as Syag suggests, just say you made it up/exaggerated.
CA, small children disturb the davening as they do not yet know how to daven and are incapable of sitting quietly. See Mishna Berura 97:3.
Syag, if the muktza was put there before Shabbat along with something more important or if it was not left intentionally there is no prohibition. Similarly, if the muktza is a devar she’melachto assura, the stroller may be moved for it;s needs or a permitted use (SA OC 310:7-8). How do you define not Shabbat-related? In general, if someone enjoys something that is his oneg Shabbat (Aruch haShulchan OC 307:2-3). I suggest that you review the halachot.
Thank you. i have reviewed the halachas of shabbos. And I’m not sure how you can pasken based on a vague statement. And oddly enough i was specifically vague to prevent someone from jumping in and declaring everything to be permissible. You are correct that it can be, but sometimes its not.
It may be a common practice for some to declare everything a necessity so they can make it permissable for carry but many people are inaware that it’s even an issue, and some things just aren’t okay. One mom told her child to collect acorns for her school project since there were so many available on the way home from shul.
Syag, carrying on Shabbos has some arcane halochos that are not so simple. My Rav in Midwood had paskened it was assured to use the Flatbush eruv, but paskened that it was permissible to use a cane, if the user needed it 24/7. He held that it was the same as not considering carrying to wear a hat. He did make one HUGE qualification. To enter the shul from the street one had to climb 10 stairs , with a handrail from the bottom to the top. He said it would be considered carrying, and thereby assur to carry the cane, if a person used the handrail, not the cane, to climb the last 10 steps
@anonomous jew,
You want hard facts the the MO community is shrinking?
Fact: 10 MO schools closed or merged in the last decade,
Source: AVI CHAI ten year census of Jewish School, 2020.
Fact: The MO community is aging
Source: Wikipedia: of the top 25 largest YI, 10 are located in retirement communities.
Fact: All but two MO shuls in Suffolk County do not have regular minyan
Source: Godaven.comNow prove to me that the MO community is thriving.
GadolHadorah, Yes, and the school is now known as SAR, and both its preschool/primary/elementary school as well as its High school are growing and thriving, and were able to bring the whole community (from centrist O all the way through to Open O), well beyond their own families, together during covid this past spring.
That is BH the nature of RIverdale’s community. Other Torah observant communities, both Chareidi and Modern Orthodox, have other models for success.
Some of you may have forgotten, but we Jews don’t create or measure success and growth by literally or figuratively stepping on the backs and heads of others to claw our way to some fantasy of supremacy.
We Jews help and encourage each other. Act like a Jew, not a barbarian.
MO as philosophy/movement is certainly alive and well but has not enjoyed the same increase as the yeshivishe and Chasidishe communities. For those looking for hard numbers all you need to look at is the numbers from the day school census from 1998-2013. The MO students pretty much stayed flat but the chareidi numbers increased by an incredible amount. over 2/3 of day school students are in Chareidi schools (Satmar alone has 10%)
Limud hatorah has certainly increased in the MO community which can be demonstrated by the numbers of daf yomi attendees and the numbers of shiurim given in the same shuls compared to 30-40 years ago.I think one of the biggest question on the MO community is the numbers of yeshiva and kolleit in post high school yeshivot. Think about how many more yeshivas there in the yeshiva world compared to 30-40 years ago. BMG alone went from 2,000-over 6,000 from 1996-2017. MO has YU and it is debatable if Chovivei Torah is included. Why have the numbers of their yeshivaliet stayed the same? Even many of the YU Roshei Yeshiva send their sons to Chareidi Yeshiva gedolahs.
Dikduk bemizvtos has made great strides in the MO community but it still has some pockets where it stayed behind (as have pockets in the Chereidi community).
I think we should also appreciate that MO did kept yiddishkeit alive during a time when people thought you were crazy for staying frum. Perhaps now that the non-Orthodox movements are on the decline it is possible that the MO philosophy is not as necessary and all Orthodox Jews are blending together much more with less polarization.
“RCA, OU and YI banned anything to do with Avi Weiss”
No, Rabbi Weiss was a member in good standing of the RCA until the day before he retired, The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is an OU member shul.
As others have pointed out, YI is dying in most places, in part because it got too much into right wing politics and lost its identity. The two YIs in Riverdale are going strong though.
“The MO community is aging”
Where did all those strollers at HIR come from? Where did that huge youth program at HIR come from? Where did that packed playground at HIR come from?
HIR built a huge addition less than a decade ago and it was already out of space for the youth programs when the pandemic hit.
common saychel-It is not honest to claim to quote the “AVI CHAI ten year census of Jewish School, 2020”
There is no such thing
If you have a copy of it please post.
Sorry for the fact check but try to be honest in your postings.
Recently spent a Shabbos in a Flatbush style colony. For all practical purposes the place is MO, except maybe for 2 things: trimming is separate and no תפלה לשלום המדינה. Otherwise. I could not find much difference between that so called -Charaidy- place and an MO community.
@Charlie Hall
Wikipedia:The Conference of European Rabbis followed suit that same month, stating, “The Conference views with great pain the deviations from religious foundations emanating from the movement called ‘Open Orthodoxy’, and warns that those who act in this spirit, alumni of the aforementioned movement… will not be recognized by us as rabbis, with all that entails.”
Similar sentiments were echoed in a press release of a ruling by the Rabbinical Alliance of America on February 22, 2018, likening Open Orthodoxy to Reform and Conservative Judaism, and stating, “The clergy of this movement are espousing philosophies of the generation of the Sin of the Golden Calf.”[36]
Prominent Central Orthodoxy leaders have also stated that Open Orthodox practices or beliefs are incongruent with Orthodox Judaism. These include Hershel Schacter, Rosh Yeshiva at Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary (RIETS), Yeshiva University[37][38] and Avrohom Gordimer, a rabbinic coordinator at OU Kosher[39][40] among others.
OU/RCA response
Steven Pruzansky, rabbi of Congregation Bnai Yeshurun in Teaneck, New Jersey and a trustee of the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) on the Board of the Beth Din of America,[41] argues that Weiss’ approach closely resembles early 20th century American Conservative Judaism and in his opinion would more aptly be called “Neo-Conservative” rather than “Orthodox” Judaism. Concluding an opinion piece in Matzav.com he states that “clarity and honesty at least demand that we recognize before our eyes the creation of a new movement in Jewish life outside the Orthodox world, one that we have seen before. It can be termed … Neo-Conservatism. ‘Open Orthodoxy’ is a deceptive brand name, an advertising slogan, and an attempt to remain tethered to the Torah world to re-shape it from within, but far from the reality. The reality is that we are living through the rise of the Neo-Conservatives.” [42] Moshe Averick, a columnist for the Jewish magazine The Algemeiner Journal and author of Nonsense of a High Order: The Confused and Illusory World of the Atheist, agrees with Pruzansky that Weiss has created a new Jewish movement in America, comparing him with Isaac Mayer Wise (founder of Reform Judaism) and Solomon Schechter (founder of Conservative Judaism in the United States). He compares Weiss’s ordination of three women as Maharat on June 16, 2013, with the so-called Trefa Banquet of 1883, which marked the split between Reform and Traditional Judaism in America. Says Averick: “Weiss’ movement, a form of Judaism that enthusiastically embraces the ideologies of feminism and liberal-progressive-modernism while coating it with a strong Orthodox flavor, could accurately be labeled as Ortho-Feminist Progressive Judaism,” but “the term coined by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky … Neo-Conservative Judaism … has managed to fit neatly into the slot to the left of Orthodox Judaism and to the right of Conservative Judaism.”[43] In October 2013, dozens of rabbis who defined themselves as “members in good standing or [who] identify with the Rabbinical Council of America”, signed a letter arguing that Open Orthodoxy has “plunged ahead, again and again, across the border that divides Orthodoxy from neo-Conservatism”.[44]The Orthodox Union (OU), Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) and National Council of Young Israel have all in turn responded to Open Orthodoxy by severing their ties with the Open Orthodox institutions. The RCA does not accredit the rabbinic qualifications of Yeshivat Chovevei Torah[45] or Yeshivat Maharat[46] graduates, the OU and Young Israel do not accept females as rabbinic clergy,[47] and Young Israel Synagogues no longer accept candidates with YCT accreditation.[48]
Two years later Lopatin resigned from the Rabbinical Council of America.[55]
The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, where Weiss served as rabbi (“Senior Rabbi”) until his retirement in 2015, and where he continues as “Rabbi in Residence”, continues to define itself as “an open Orthodox synagogue.”[57]
For too long, the level of frumkeit in the MO community has been purely watered down to accommodate their personal tayvos. Rather than living a life proper balance between intensive level beis medrish learning and intensive academia, the LWMO violate halacha whenever it is simply inconvenient to follow.
In co-ed high schools, the girls who keep shomer negia are harassed by teenaged boys,
and anyone who is more machmir than Jared & Ivanka with shmiras hamitzvos is written off as “Fanatically Kharedi.”When young members of MO communities started frumming out after learning in OJ, Reishit, Gush, Shraga, and Mevaseret, their parents were extremely angry at their gadlus, so they started Open Orthodoxy to combat the influences of the Yeshivish velt & Rav Kook followers whose השפעה were causing LWMO to become more hostile to the silly tayvos of LWMO.
FYI
The Young Israel of Woodmere has packed daily minyanim a’round the clock’ including one of the 5 towns only Vasikim minyanim. They have numerous daily Shiurim a few Daf Yomis, and a Kollel. During the Yomim Noraim the YIW rents other locations to accommodate the over flow of mispallalim. Many other MO shuls in the five towns are also packed every day especially on Shabbos.
Mistykins do you seriously think that?? There is no correlation whatsoever. There are plenty of very frum and yeshivish women and Rebbetzins who go to shul and have children that are Bnei torah; and there are unfortunately some of those women who do have OTD children. There are also many women who don’t go to shul and have heilige children, but also women who don’t go to shul that have OTD kids. Kids don’t go OTD because their mother didn’t go to shul.
There are some thriving MO shuls in the NY metro area and in other areas of the country. Just before the virus shutdown, I attended a Simcha at Beth Sholom in Potomac which was literally packed. Same for MO shuls in suburban Boston, Denver etc. Some of these blanket statements regarding the demise of MO are simply made from ignorance.
“People will bring things from ace to place that are not shabbos related”
That actually has nothing to do with eruvim.
The halachah is according to Rabbi Shimon, not Rabbi Yehudah — we are lenient on mutkzeh. (That is the next to last daf in Bavli Shabbat — and one of the few examples of following Rabbi Shimon when he paskens against another Tanna.) Something does not have to be specifically Shabbos related, it just has to not fall in to a mutkzeh category, for you to be able to carry it, either in your house or in the “courtyard”. Carrying something from one end of the eruv to the other — some eruvim are many miles wide — is like carrying something across your living room.
We should obviously be careful about mitkzeh but thanks to Rabbi Shimon it is not that hard to observe. 🙂
” their parents were extremely angry at their gadlus, so they started Open Orthodoxy”
That is not how it happened. Rabbi Weiss wanted better training of the RIETS rabbinical students in practical rabbinics and pastoral counseling and was prepared to set up internship programs with leading MO community rabbis to allow this. (Most of Rabbi Weiss’s former Assistant Rabbis are now leading large successful MO shuls today.) YU wasn’t interested — I am not sure why — and then a major donor offered to endow a yeshiva for Rabbi Weiss. What rabbi would turn down a big donor offering to endow a yeshiva? Interestingly, RIETS now DOES have a lot of practical rabbinics and pastoral counseling training in its semicha program.
I am happy you mentioned Salanter. My cousin graduated from the first class in 1932,and my dad a”h in 1937.While my dad went on to MTA,the vast majority went to public. Young Israel’s were strong then.As a matter of fact great Rabbis ran the Young Israel’s. Like Reb Mendel Gettinger and Rav Paretzky and the American Chofetz Chaim ,Dr. Stern,and Rabbi Mirsky and so many more. Many Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolei Torah grew up in YI. More to follow…
“The Orthodox Union (OU), Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) and National Council of Young Israel have all in turn responded to Open Orthodoxy by severing their ties with the Open Orthodox institutions.”
That is not accurate. The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale remains an OU member synagogue and cooperates with RCA rabbis and YI synagogues.
I have stated this before in this comment thread and others have supported that. I am not sure why misinformation continues to be spread.
The discussion about who has a greater membership or youth movement is silly. I am starting a new denomination that only cares about perpetuation in terms of critical mass. Any thriving group that devolved from Judaism is automatically included. Regardless of their status toward Judaism per se. Right now my denomination consists of all branches of Christianity and Islam, when the Jewish schisms can be perceived as one unit, they will be deemed Jewish enough to be allowed into my denomination that is obviously the most Jewish of all. [Based on it’s own criteria of strength in numbers. Which no other denomination is Jewish enough to take on as their defining criteria.]
The article is a very good read. He puts the blame at the base (elementary schools) of the educational structure. Rather than pushing kids toward a stronger enthusiasm for yiddishkiet, it slides kids toward being a part of the culture that they are being exposed to.
I think this is true (almost) everywhere. Just in the more charedi communities, the culture is more yiddish. Rather than creating a greater enthusiasm for Torah and Mitzvos, it turns our culture into a mitzvah. Educating kids to be passionate about the giyus, the internet,kashrus organizations, and shirt color, also leads to the conclusion that if there is no social activity than there is no value to the devotional aspects of yiddishkiet alone. It just provides a better cover for the lack of enthusiasm for authentic Judaism.
n0mesorah
Very well said.
I’d like to add a related point. Learning all day is hard (impossible? ) for children (and most adults). At the heart of Torah umadah is the idea that both Torah and maddah are important in serving Hashem. This isnt limited to “Madah” per se but cultural in general. for example Tradition, perhaps the flagship journal of modern orthodoxy, has a running online column entitled ““The Best” – עידית” about using Western culture for good.
Playing sports is not just a “necessary evil” like it was in my yeshiva as a kid, but a positive attribute in of itselfIs it any wonder then, that kids (who grow in to adults) would rather Serve Hasehm by watching Toy Story then learning Rashi? that they would rather play basketball than go to a Motzei Shabbos learning program. Both are great!
And to be honest, I do agree with them, that both are Great (though obviously not equal) but to kids thuis is confusing, if both are good things why learn? lets do the more fun great thing!(This is the same reason why behavior is an issue at General studies in more charedi yeshivos, the message given over is that general studies “English” is all a waste of time and bitul torah that we have to do because of the government. and this was the message at my more “open-minded” yeshiva that at 3 hours of English. althoug this isnt the topic of the thread I mention it becasue it is the flip side of the same coin)
Nom- i worry about your ongoing presentation of cynicism as fact.
@Charle Hall
“That is not accurate. The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale remains an OU member synagogue and cooperates with RCA rabbis and YI synagogues.”
In the past 5 years HIR was twice warned to change its policies or risk being thrown out of the OU“In the past 5 years HIR was twice warned to change its policies or risk being thrown out of the OU”
HIR still has female “clergy” (I personally despise the term as applied to Jewish leaders) and is still an OU shul.
@Charlie Hall,
They stopped writing mazal tov for gay marriage in the shul bulletins and they stop having females lead services.
Those were the things that the OU said the will pull the plug on.“They stopped writing mazal tov for gay marriage”
It never did that.
“they stop having females lead services.”
They still have women’s tefillah groups — or did, prior to the pandemic.
@ Charlie Hall
Jewishlink:
Last week, Rabbi Yair Hoffman, in an article for the Five Towns Jewish Times, reported that Rabbi Eytan Feiner of the White Shul in Far Rockway, Queens, had issued remarks condemning the much-publicized act of wishing official mazel tovs (in shul publications and from the bimah) to people celebrating same-sex unions, a practice that took place at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale. In his Shabbat drasha, according to multiple reports, Rabbi Feiner said that if the OU did not move on the matter he would have no choice but to reconsider the White Shul’s affiliation with the OU.The complex, nuanced issue of whether to issue celebratory statements for non-halachically sanctioned acts or celebrations in Orthodox Union institutions is not new, but what happened next was. Rabbi Hoffman asked the Orthodox Union for comment, and Allen Fagin, the organization’s CEO issued the following statement: “It is the OU’s unequivocal position that support for, or celebration of, halachically proscribed conduct is fundamentally inappropriate. Accordingly, the institutional endorsement or encouragement (implicit or explicit) of any conduct that is contrary to halacha is activity that no Orthodox synagogue should allow. With this principle in mind, we are currently in the process of reviewing our synagogue standards to determine whether further comment, or other action, is appropriate.”
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In an interview Tuesday in response to a request for information on this policy, Fagin told The Jewish Link that the matter has been settled, with HIR agreeing not to issue such announcements in the future. “The OU has been in touch with Hebrew Institute of Riverdale to discuss the OU’s recent policy statement. The discussions have been respectful, with the exchange of differing perspectives. The OU is pleased that the issue has been resolved in accordance with the OU’s policies, as set forth in its statement, as HIR has agreed to refrain from the practice we addressed.
“HIR has requested that we note that it was not their intention to create a public discussion or controversy,” said Fagin.
@ Charlie Hall
Riverdale Press:
Same-sex marriage has been the law of the land for some time now, but many religious institutions — like Orthodox Judaism — refuse to embrace this “modern” way of thinking, citing laws that go back hundreds, if not thousands, of years.The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is Orthodox, but has long been known to follow it’s own path in grappling with the strictures of traditional Jewish law to include women and LGBTQ Jews. It hosted a panel in 2016, for example, called “Building a Jewish Future Outside the Closet,” which focused on LGBTQ Jews in Orthodoxy, and its founding rabbi, Avi Weiss, was one of the signatories of a groundbreaking 2010 statement of principles by Orthodox leaders asserting an “obligation to treat human beings with same-sex attractions and orientations with dignity and respect.” The shul even congratulated same-sex couples on their weddings in its newsletter.
But announcements of marriage celebrations in violation of Orthodox law? No more.
The Orthodox Union — the largest association of Orthodox synagogues in the United States — has reinforced its opposition to same-sex marriage congratulations, calling them an “institutional endorsement” of something it considers a sin.
A quick question of which is worse? Appointing a woman for a serarah or a man dayan that is not a rachman? Or are they equal aveyras?
Dear Ben,
It is not a quick question!
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