Starting the Torah from Hachodash Hazeh

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  • #2231883
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi starts the question from his father Rav Yitzchok and answers to to tell us that we did not steal the the land, EY. The Maaseh Hashem points out that Berishis could have been included after passage ????? ????? you should tell your children? The gemora in Pesachim 3,2 tells us that Rebbi Yehuda ben Beseira did not sacrifice a korban pesach as he was not olah regel because he did not own land in EY telling us one needs to own land to sacrifice a korbann pesach. Therefore, the Arabs can always argue that the land was stolen, so we must start with Bereishis to say that Hashem geve the land first to them and took it away from them and gave it to us.

    #2231994
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Now we can look forward to having this bumped every year at Parshas Bereishis.

    #2232088
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The R’ Yitzchok he mentions long predates Rashi’s father

    #2232168
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Sifsei Chachamim says that we don’t find this Midrash anywhere so it must have been Rashi’s father who he wanted to honor at the beginning of the Torah.

    #2232186
    sechel83
    Participant

    see likutai sichos vol 5. its the first rashi sicha the rebbe said. amazing. see also maamer birashis 5738. based on hemshach 5666 (its a very deep and amazing concept) ??’ ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? – ????? ???”? ????”?, ???? ??????? – ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??????, ?”? ?”???? ???” ???”? “???? ???”.

    #2232762
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    I couldn’t find anywhere in the Sifsei Chachomim that this Rebbi Yitzchok is Rashi’s father. But even if he (or someone else) does say it, with the greatest of respect it isn’t so. In actual fact, this statement of Rebbi Yitzchok appears in the Yalkut Shimoni on the possuk ????? ??? ??? in the name of the Tanchuma; indeed, it can be found in ?????? ??? here in ??????. See also Ramban on this Rashi who calls it an ????, a term he reserves for ????? ??”?.

    #2232902
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    Also, Reb Eliezer, if you reread your original post you will see that it is very confused and unclear. I don’t actually understand what you are trying to say. Please do yourself a favour and explain it more clearly. Specifically, I don’t understand why you bring the Gemoro in Pesochim, nor why you bring the ???? ?, (who as far as I can see doesn’t quote the Gemoro).

    #2233004
    flyer
    Participant

    It’s the first sifsei chachamim of the Torah.

    #2233054
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When one brings a korban pesach, according to kanaan, we are robbers because we stoled the land in EY which is required to bring it. Therefore, Hashem starts the Torah with Bereishis to explain how He gave the land to us, so it cannot start with hachodash hazel before explaining why the land belongs to us.

    #2233073
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, one doesn’t need to own land in EY in order to bring the Korban Pesach. One only needs to own land in Eretz Yisroel in order to be obligated in ???? ????. Even someone who doesn’t own any land in EY can choose to be ???? ????, and while he is there can bring a ???? ???.

    #2233071
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    @flyer
    I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The first Sifsei Chachamim in the Torah reads as follows:
    ??????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????, (??? ?? ????? ????? ????), ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????.
    As you can see, not a word about Rebbi Yitzchok being Rashi’s father.

    I even checked 2 other Chumoshim to make sure I wasn’t missing something, but they were identical.

    #2233081
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    @flyer
    I just checked a fourth Chumash (????? edition), and this one does have the piece you are referring to. (Seems like they added it in.) It is a quote from the Divrei Dovid, the Taz’s ????? on ???? ??”?, who in turn is quoting something he saw as a boy in an old manuscript. And immediately afterwards, in square brackets, the copyist makes the same point I made: that this is definitely a ???? ?????? quoted by the ????? ??????.

    Interestingly, the ???? ???????? ???? brings this pshat (that Rebbi Yitzchok was Rashi’s father) from ?’ ????? ?????, author of Sefer Chassidim. (This was probably what the manuscript the Taz saw was based on.) Strangely, he says ???? ????? ??’ ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? (!) ?? ???? ??? (!) ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????.

    #2233202
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look at Tosfas Pesachim (3,2) beginning Meeleho where the two, Pesach and Regel, are compared together.

    #2233339
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, Tosafos doesn’t mean that at all. Tosafos is not saying that someone who doesn’t own land in EY is exempt from bringing the ???? ???: as the ???? ???? points out, there is no ???? for saying this. Rather, as the ??”? explains, they are explaining why R’ Yehuda ben Beseira was not ???? ????; on that they answer that he was ???? from ???? ???? because he didn’t own land in EY, and so was automatically ???? from bringing the ???? ??? because he was nowhere near ??????? on ??? ???.

    But even if you would be right that not owning land in EY is an exemption from the ???? of ???? ???, the ?????? would still not have a ????; as even then we could bring the ???? ??? without being ?????, just like someone who is ???? from ???? ???? can still choose to come.

    Oh, and by the way, the ????? ?????? of Tosafos is not Me’eloho, but rather Mei’alyoh (from the tail).

    #2233560
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Thanks for the correction, I just glanced on it. Check the Minchas Chinuch 5, who says like me.

    #2233574
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer on Pesachim. 8,2 says that he might not be protected when one has no land, so he might not want to come.

    #2233595
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    You’re right that the Minchas Chinuch indeed understands Tosafos like you, but that still doesn’t answer my second point: that even if someone is ???? from ???? ??? by reason of not having ????, he can still bring it as a ????! (Besides for this being stated explicitly by the ??? ??? to ????? ?? ?”?, it is also clear from Sanhedrin 11a, where we say that Beis Din make a leap year if people from Bovel are coming to Eretz Yisroel but have not yet arrived; ??”? explains this means they are coming ????? ??????. Surely these Babylonians did not all own land in EY; yet they were still coming ????? ??????!)

    #2233725
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    I don’t see how that Chasam Sofer would apply to ??? ?????, when there was no ???? ???? anyway.

    #2233760
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why Pesach Mitzraim? They can argue gazlonim anytime.

    #2233954
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    I thought you were trying to answer why the story of creation could not have put after ????? ????. To defeat the ???? of ??? for ??? ?????, it would have been sufficient to put it after ????? ????. The only ???? ??? that would not be covered by putting ???? ?????? after ????? ???? would be ??? ?????.

    And anyway, the ?????? would not have had a ???? on ??? ????? for another reason as well: even according to the Minchas Chinuch ???? Tosafos that someone who doesn’t own ???? is also exempt from ???? ???, surely that ???? had not yet been given at the time of ??? ?????, seeing as it was before ??? ????. So how would the ?????? know this ???? if it had not yet been given?

    #2233999
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    At Pesach Mitzraim, according to Targum Yehonosan on ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????, there was a a neis were the Jews were carried to the ???? ????? to be makriv a korban pesach, so they were not olah regel and no ???? was required.

    #2234162
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    Why do you need to bring the Targum Yonasan to prove that the Jews were not oleh l’regel at ??? ?????? I mean, without the Targum Yonasan they simply stayed in Mitzrayim until the next morning, so they were certainly not ???? ????!

    You then say that since ??? ????? were not ???? ???? at ??? ?????, no ???? was required. I suppose you mean that even according to the Minchas Chinuch ???? Tosafos that a regular ???? ??? requires ???? for it to be an obligation, ??? ????? is somehow different, and does not need the ownership of ???? for it to be a ????. So we agree that the ?????? could not have had a ???? regarding ??? ?????, since there is no need to have ???? for it to be a ????; and, if ???? ?????? had been written after ????? ????, they could not have had a ???? regarding any other ??? either! Which brings us back to your original ???? (which is really the ???? ?’s explanation of Rebbi Yitzchok’s ????): why could ???? ?????? not have been written after ????? ?????

    So what have you answered exactly?

    #2234120
    sechel83
    Participant

    the ramban writes we needed brashis, its the source of emunah?! see gur aryeh that even if the torah would start with hachodesh hazah, we would know from the eseres hadibros that hashem created the world- ki shashes yomim etc, many more questions. see likutai sichos vol 5 parshas brashis

    #2234299
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ????? ???? is not Pesach Mitzraim as the Chinuch uses it in Mitzva 21 for ???? ????? ?????.

    #2234347
    Gedol Hador
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, when did I say that ????? ???? is Pesach Mitzrayim? I said that the only ??? that took place before the ???? of ????? ???? was said was Pesach Mitzrayim.

    #2234384
    2scents
    Participant

    Sechel.

    Or we can just look into the Ramban and read his own words, he goes on to explain how Rashi is right even with his ‘mehalech’ and why R Yitzchaks pshat is still valid.

    #2235263
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Rashi’s father only had this question after the Sifsei Chachamim claimed it to be so.

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