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shindy:
The source was provided previously in this thread. Look above. (1st post on this page.)
If you’ll notice, there is no disclaimer in the source stating: “This is inapplicable to tznius issues.”
Btw cantorsq, Even if we assume for a moment that your interpretation AND recollection of what you say is the Chazon Ish’s position IS correct, are you saying you accept the positions of the Chazon Ish across the board, or only where it suits you — and you will pick and choose responsa from various scholars that meet YOUR liking, for every different question?
In other words, if for example I show you a teshuva from the Chazon Ish that states that one must wear a hat and jacket during the entire course of davening and bentching, with a minyan or without, will you accept it and start following it (if you aren’t already), or will you find another shitta to your suiting for that circumstance and disregard the Chazon Ish’s position in that case?
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Joseph I do as all Jews do. I listen to that which resonates with my sense of what is reasonable. We all do, you included. So please spare me this poor example of a plea of some neo-Kantian categorical imperative.
Ahh cantoresq, this is where you and I differ. If MY sense of reasonableness differs from my poisek, I accept his psak nevertheless, and I don’t discard it due to MY sense of otherwise.
Will, actually, all the “tznius”related things seemed subjective.
Besides, if a stranger came to me and told me I was acting in a way that wasnt tznius, I would get very upset…especially if it were subjective.
Joseph please tell me how you came to chose your “poisek?” Was it not because his approach to things resonates with you as true? You choose to follow who you WANT to follow.
cantoresq: “Joseph please tell me how you came to chose your “poisek?” Was it not because his approach to things resonates with you as true? You choose to follow who you WANT to follow.”
Not at all. Before I was married, I simply used my fathers poisek. After I got married, my Rebbe from my Yeshiva (which my parents placed me in) advised me who to use as a poisek — and I use ad hayom hazeh.
Not at all. Before I was married, I simply used my fathers poisek. After I got married, my Rebbe from my Yeshiva (which my parents placed me in) advised me who to use as a poisek — and I use ad hayom hazeh.
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And were he to begin issuing psakim you found odious (i.e. were he to being relying on kulot he never relied upon before and with which you disagree) what would you do?
“And were he to begin issuing psakim you found odious (i.e. were he to being relying on kulot he never relied upon before and with which you disagree) what would you do?”
I would follow his psak.
I would follow his psak.
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Really? What if doing so constituted a 180 degree reversal of your conduct on a d’Oraita issue? I have a VERY hard time believeing that you are so sanguine about such things.
“Really? What if doing so constituted a 180 degree reversal of your conduct on a d’Oraita issue?”
Follow his psak.
“I have a VERY hard time believeing that you are so sanguine about such things.”
Its more than believing. Its LIVING it.
Joseph…but how would you recognize if he turned into a Shabtai Tzvi?? You wouldstill just follow blindly? I find that hard to believe…
SJS, how do I know you are not a Shabtai Tzvi??
Joseph, “clever” but you avoid the point.
Unless, you want me to be your posek?
“clever but you avoid the point.”
There was no point.
How do I know he doesn’t eat chazar?
How do I know he doesn’t beat his wife?
…
Devorah K, I think Shindy’s way of non-judgementally reminding the women about kasherus is very good. If you are going to start heaping tochacha upon tochacha, then you will lose them about everything. Think about when you were in school and a teacher would start a lecture like that. The average student just turned off. Pick your battles or you will lose everything.
Teenager, I think you are great that you want to help other kids but just because somethng is very bad, doesn’t mean you should ingnor the bad things.
just me- how am i ignoring the bad things?
Joseph, at what point, or is there a point, at which you would reject the teachings of your accepted teachers or psakim of your accepted poskikm? I’m speaking hypothetically.
cantoresq, There is no such point.
(SJS’s hypothetical point would theoretically qualify, but it is such a far stretch ofthe imagination with such infrequency in history, as to being practically irrelevant. And if in such an occurance, would be so obvious as to render discussion irrelevant.)
Joseph, I don’t believe you. I simply don’t believe your protestations of piety.
cantoresq, there is a lot you don’t believe.
Btw, my “protestations of piety” is the piety of my Rebbeim and posek, not c’v my own.
Joseph, out of curiosity – do you speak this absolute in person? Or is just the nature of web forums?
Joseph don’t kid a kidder
cantoresq, don’t believe a disbeliever.
This is getting silly. (Sorry, but there’s just no other word for it.)
to joseph if you’ve noticed thruout..cantor is from ‘mekilay bais shamai and makilai beis hille hrai zay… chulin 42 (?)
someone suggested kosherstarbucks.com—-well i checked it out and called the OU to confirm with what the website says is kosher or not, and the OU disagrees on most of the stuff the site says is kosher.
IDK about anyone else, but im relying on the OU more than an online kosher site
You wrote: Their clothing is designed to make an impression and they sit in the most provocative of ways. Their conversations range from the mundane to the profane.
With all due respect you seem to be writing from an emotional position of jealousy.
I bet that anyone not as frim as you is likely “provocative”,or “profane”.
I don’t see the average maideleh in Starkbucks any more “provocative”,or “profane” than any other bnois yisroel.
No, she (the original poster) is writing the unfortunate reality that is all too prevalent in some communities. This is tragic and must be rectified.
Joseph was your first post response a joke?
devora- maybe you should stop being judgmental, many of the cakes are in fact kosher, as well as the cream cheese
ovg613, of course not.
ovg: The cakes have no hechsher. (And its cut with utensils that are used with treif food.)
in the summer a friend was in starbucks & told me he saw the worker that served him his coffee, has Tzitzis comin out of his apron in the back!!! just thought i’ll share a funny starbucks story!!!
I suggest that you request that the management put up a sign in the Monsey Starbucks which lists what items are Kosher and who issues the certification. I have seen this done in other places in Manhattan and Los Angeles. Years ago Baskin Robbins used to post that their Rocky Road ice cream was not kosher but that the other flavors had the hashgocho of_____. Of course this is a small step and does nothing for the tznius violation. It is also sad that the very excellent kosher cafes in the area that are owned by frum people are losing the business-especially when in harsh economic times-every customer counts.
I do empathize with Devora’s feelings and she must be a special person to feel for another yid. Most people really do not care at all if they see a frum person doing something improper, they do not feel anything on the inside. We are responsible for each other and our collective merits will bring the geula. The ones who still have sensitivity are also going to be sensitive and uplifted when they see the loads of kiddush Hashem that goes on among Yidden everywhere.
I just found this thread now and didnt have time to read the whole thing but thought i should respond. A friend of mine worked in Starbucks and said that she was shocked at what frum Jews were ordering. She figured they just didn’t realize that it really wasn’t kosher. Devora, if you want to help these women you need to be able to go over to them totally non-judgmental and let them know that it could be a problem of kashrus- then, if they listen or not is out of your control.
will hill- forgot my other password cause i haven’t been on here in a while (4 months i see) anyway , i completely understand why you would say that, but give me the benefit of the doubt- I do not make comments that have no veracity or are baseless statements- the cakes are precut (they are not done by the baristas) the cakes come in a larger package that has a hecksher- and in some Starbucks stores the baristas repackage the cakes into individual cellophane wrappers with a hechsher
If you were so upset about these women and discovered that they were eating treif that you didn’t take that issue up with your RAV but chose to ask your sheilah here? That bothers me, and indicates to me that you might not be honest and sincere.
Secondly, if you suspect that they are eating treif, you could easily stop at their table and cleverly say “oh, i didn’t know that this store was kosher, who gives the hechser here?”. That would be the nicest and most polite way of bringing it to their attention without snooping behind their backs, asking the non-jew or non-frum jew who works the counter or giving tochacha because you feel you are better then them. I’m sorry if I offend you but that is what the tone of your post sounds like.
The appropriate thing to do if you think they are eating treif is take it to your RAV and ask him if you should say something, or if you should ask the guy behind the counter to let them know that it is not a Kosher store. If he says you should approach them, he will probably ask you if you know for sure that they bought the food there and did not bring it from home and just buy coffee. IF you know for sure that they bought it there, then maybe the best thing to do with the RAV’s ok, is to do as I suggested and act surprise and say “I didn’t know this store was kosher, who gives the hasgacha here?”. This will cause the least amount of embarrassment for them if said in the proper tone and not in a sarcastic manner. Or if they go at a regular time, maybe the Rav himself can go in and just stop by and mention, “You probably didn’t realize, but this store is not one of the Kosher Starbucks.” This is also a way to minimize their embarrassment. There are ways of giving tochecha that doesn’t have to cause embarrassment and humiliation especially when someone is doing wrong b’shgagah and not purposely.
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