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Ben Torah –
“After 10 years of no children, a divorce is in order. (Yes, even in today’s day and age.)”
Thats not even accurate.
Shlomo Zalman –
In your quest to be “super shtark” (and no doubt you are) you unfortunately come across as callous and devoid of emotion. Marriage is NOT a business contract. Your wife is NOT a piece of equipment you acquire to ensure that have familial continuity. Marriage is about love, respect, giving, honesty… And until you feel ready to give all that and so much more marriage shouldnt even be a thought. If you are ready for that after 10 dates by all means, but if it takes you 8 months, why should that be held against you? Marriage is a lifetime commitment! Its not a lease that you return in 36 months and pick out a newer alternative.
WIY- Maybe this has been the system up until now, 10 dates and your good to go. Lately, the Frum Community has been plagued by divorce. Not couples married 25 years (although that is just as heart breaking), couples married 1 year and less! Maybe it’s time to take a good hard look at the current system we have in play and re-evaluate if it really is the best system. One size does not fit all when dealing with life time commitments. To stand on principle just because this is the way it has always been done is just foolish and destructive.
Spontaneity won’t change the guys conversation. A yeshiva man should be deep into the yeshiva and his Rav.
Try a different venue for a date other than talking in a lounge – something that will challenge a person. Maybe doing a project together – like volunteer for a chessed org, an art class, or apple picking.
“What’s the correct number of dates AFTER marriage? 🙂 “
I highly recommend once a week, at least. A shared bagel and tuna on a Friday afternoon, work for us.
3. Someone who tolerates these romantic feelings, quasi or actual believes that marriage should be more than ensuring the spiritual and physical continuation of the Jewish people. This is incompatible with the yeshivishe hashkafah.
I’m confused. Does this mean that you (or, if you will, the “yeshivishe hashkafah”) are opposed to romance WITHIN marriage?
The Wolf
Sacrilege – it’s halacha. (Not mandatory of course.)
BTW, shlomozalman is correct.
Its goal oriented. You are basically interviewing the person for the job of spouse.
You seem to think spouse is a job. A business arrangement. You clean the house and give birth, and I’ll make money or learn.
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It is obvious to me that the emotions which G-d provided us are meant to be used.
Parents don’t love their children by chance, and neither do men love women by chance.
I suppose you think it is all part of the yetzer hara and a real tzaddik has no emotion.
Sacrilege
You are right. We have many more problems today. None of which will be solved by MORE dates. I told you I know a couple who dated approx 30 times and a few years later are now divorced. Maybe they should have dated 60 times….
The reasons of higher divorce rates have little to do with dating and much more to do with peoples attitudes. We live in a disposable society and an instant society. If its not perfect “right away” we are just done with it. We discard it and look for something better.
People lack maturity and education about marriage. You are dating right? How many lectures on amrriage have you listened to? How many books have you read? I went to the trouble of educating myself so at least when I find the right one, Ill know it and Ill know how to have a good marriage and what to do when there’s a problem.
Respect and Love are integral components to every marriage. There are no two ways about it. Of course the feelings of love are going to deepen and mature after marriage, but you need them before as well. If a couple is rushed into getting engaged (Nu, its already been 6 dates!) that can only backfire. You can’t help feelings that aren’t there, if you are willing to invest the time to see if they develop, kol hakavod.
I can get along with a lot of people, that doesnt mean I have to marry them.
What is your definition of love?
I dont think it is something you can put into words, its a feeling, you’ll know it when you feel it.
Sacrilege
Love between a couple comes from true giving of the self which really requires a marriage environment.
Dating can get you to the point of liking, attraction and feeling this is the right person and knowing that you have the right things in common and want the same things out of life. This usually comes for most people in 6-8 dates give or take.
Whatever else you want to know about the person can be learned post engagement. Some people force themselves to continue to go out just because they like the person and they may have nothing else on the table. But that’s not being honest with yourself and it only hurts you. As you know yourself from the story you quoted, you dated s/o for a large amount of time but then the right girl came along for him and it went chickchok. If its the right person you wil usually feel it a few dates in. My sister told me she knew by date 3 but they got engaged 6 or 7.
Oh and for the record, just because you love someone doesn’t mean you should marry them. Marriage is not just about love. Its about both moving in the same direction together.
I know people who dated (not the kosher way) and they loved each other but they knew it wasn’t the right move to marry each other. Dating requires intense honsesty. Its easy to fool oneself.
“3. Someone who tolerates these romantic feelings, quasi or actual believes that marriage should be more than ensuring the spiritual and physical continuation of the Jewish people. This is incompatible with the yeshivishe hashkafah. It therefore renders someone of this type suspect of not accepting what the yeshivishers regard as the true torah viewpoint.”
This is an interesting statement to make in light of the fact that every “yeshivish shidduch information sheet” (aka resumes) discusses everything BUT the child bearing possibilities of the potential mate.
Personality? Why bother, as long as long as each mate can produce an acceptable number of offspring.
Education? who cares what seminary, yeshiva or shul anyone davens in. Can they produce offspring?
Siblings? who cares what they do, as long as one can demonstrate that they come from a long line of forebearers who have all produced many offspring.
Yichus? not important, as long as one can demonstrate an ability to reproduce.
Sacrilege
Love, defined by the Rambam is :
The emotional pleasure a human being experiences when he understands and focuses on the virtues of another human being.
Actually, ShlomoZalman is correct.
A man acquires a wife. My marriage CONTRACT. It is a business transaction. This was often done to consolidate wealth and maintain power. But ultimately, the man owns the woman in some way.
We do have romantic notions in the Torah though.
Anyway, I’m glad things don’t have to be done as they have in the past (there were no goats and camels in my dowry!). I dated my husband for 1.5 years.
Smart cookie ,Sacrilege, and Wolf
In no place did I express my personal point of view, so comments like shtark, a bit off, and the like are misplaced. I simply am trying to teach the less informed what the yeshivishe point of view actually is. When official (gedolim sanctioned)yeshivishe hashkafah is discussed, terms like romance and ” in love” are not in the vocabulary. If you like the idea of romance , be aware that it is incompatible with yeshivishe hashkafah. As far as romance within marriage is concerned, it is tolerated when absolutely necessary, but it is not a virtuous practice and should be discoraged.
sorry, discouraged of course. Typo, it happens.
If you think that falling in love with a guy = a succesful marriage that is WRONG. Marriages based on emotion fall apart. Because when real life confronts you, and things become complicated, Mr. Nice Guy becomes Mr. Tense and Stressed out…. What happened to that sweet guy you fell in love with? All the young couples who got divorced – did they not feel in love with the guy when they got engaged? Some people may have been pushed into a shidduch, buy many people got engaged to the wrong people simply because they fell in love. Getting engaged has two components – feeling a connection (love), and logically evauluating if you two share common goals, and can last in a marriage, through thick and through thin. The second component is just as important as the first, if not more important.
Ben Torah: After 10 years of no children, a divorce is in order. (Yes, even in today’s day and age.)
Please do not call yourself a Ben Torah. Are you smarter than the Chazon Ish or Rav Simcha Wasserman? They didn’t have children either and remained married.
Besides for the fact that your comment is really insensitive to many people out there who are suffering enough without having to hear your hurtful, thoughtless words.
And lastly, for about 50% of couples facing infertility, that is not going to change, no matter who the guy gets married to.
THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!
Shlomozalmen- while our definition of love is different than the goyim, we definitely have a concept of love in the Torah. If you fail to understand that, then please don’t get married until you seek help.
There’s a reason why children are born through love and intimate relationships and they just don’t grow on trees!
And that reason is because a couple has to have true love.
Ask any rav or mentor if you don’t trust me.
???? ????
Mishneh Torah 15:7
A man should not marry a barren women, an elderly woman, an aylonit or a minor who is not fit to bear a child unless he has already fulfilled the mitzvah of being fruitful and multiplying, or he has another wife with whom he can father children.
When a man has married a woman and remained married to her for ten years without her bearing children, he must divorce her and pay her [the money due her by virtue of her] ketubah, or marry a woman who is fit to bear children.
If he does not desire to divorce her, he should be compelled to do so; he should be beaten with a rod until he divorces her. Even when he says, “I will not engage in marital relations with her. Instead, we will dwell together with witnesses so that we will not ever be in private,” regardless of whether it is he or she who offers this proposition, it is not accepted. Rather, he is required to divorce [his wife] or marry another woman who is fit to bear children.
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The Ramah (Even HaEzer 1:3) states that in his time, it was no longer customary to compel a man to divorce a woman who has not borne children to her husband. (See also the Hagahot Maimoniot, which quote opinions that state that in this age, and particularly in the diaspora, there is no obligation to divorce a woman even though she has not borne children in this amount of time. At present, there are many Rabbis who have divorced their wives in such a situation, but at least an equal number who have not. Every person has the prerogative of making his own decision regarding this matter.)
As far as romance within marriage is concerned, it is tolerated when absolutely necessary, but it is not a virtuous practice and should be discoraged.
If that’s the official “yeshivishe hashkafah” then I proudly proclaim myself non-yeshivish.
You see, I *do* romantic things. B’Mayzid, if you will. I buy flowers for Eeees — and not just any flowers — but I always try to find something new and distinct for her. I leave her love notes around the house. I try and surprise her with things whenever possible. I do spontaneous things like cook her breakfast when she least expects it. I send her cards in the mail. I try to arrange “alone time” when we can spend time together talking, walking, laughing and sharing with each other. We *still*, after all these years, go out on dates. I put a lot of thought into birthday and anniversary gifts and try to do things that show her that I think of her often and truly care enough to put an effort into pleasing her (example: one anniversary I had her wedding bouquet replicated in silk flowers). We play board games together, do silly things together, even have our own “code-words” for silly concepts and ideas that have come up over the years we spent together. We smile, we flirt with each other and we try to do whatever we can to make the other happy. We share in each other’s successes and we comfort each other when something bad happens to one of us.
To me, that’s romance — and if you tell me that that’s to be discouraged, then you might as well tell me to get divorced — because I don’t want to be married without all that. For me, it’s not a b’dieved — it’s an essential part of marriage. Granted, others may not want that in their marriage — and if it works for them, then all the more power to them — but for me, asking me not to be romantic would be like asking me not to breathe.
The Wolf
I’m not sure which yeshivish world espouses the hashkafa that is being foisted upon it.
Thank you for your whole long Dvar Torah and clarifying that the Chazon Ish was permitted to stay married. Thank you for your haskamah. That does not negate the fact that:
A. your comment is really insensitive to many people out there who are suffering enough without having to hear your hurtful, thoughtless words.
B. For about 50% of couples facing infertility, that is not going to change, no matter who the guy gets married to
WIY
We arent discussing my personal story because there were so many more components that I didnt mention (but yes, had he be willing I wouldve gladly accepted a proposal)
Shlomo Zalman
If you dont agree with the “Yeshivish” dating method, why then have you elected yourself to educated the masses about this form of dating?
To all who think you dont need to Love your spouse on some level before you get married –
I would like to know how you think its ok to be intimitate with them the night of the wedding. “Well, its the night of the wedding, duh.” No! If you are going to completely give yourself to another person it cant be because “you share common goals and dreams” its not because you share “intellectual curiosities” etc etc… If you dont LOVE the person on every level then you have no right being with them. Maybe that love is a little premature maybe it isnt fully realized, but you sure as heck need the love.
*Ok, calm again*
As far as romance within marriage is concerned, it is tolerated when absolutely necessary, but it is not a virtuous practice and should be discoraged.
Can I get one of our female memebers to post this quote on Imamother and report back what some of the chareidi/yeshivish women have to say about it? I think I’d find that highly… interesting.
The Wolf
Wolf
“If that’s the official “yeshivishe hashkafah” then I proudly proclaim myself non-yeshivish”
Beat ya to it.
Sac, I disagree. Look at how many one night stands happen around the world. You don’t need love for that. But it does make it more satisfying.
Also, in the past, men and women would marry without knowing each other. It worked for them.
What changed from the time of the Rambam to the R”ma?
SJS – I was going to bring up one night stands, but didnt know if it would fly on this site, clearly it does, so I’ll say it.
If you don’t Love your spouse then you are no better than having a one night stand. There said it.
Mr. 1987: I’m sorry you find Rambam to be insensitive or thoughtless. There was no haskama, the ruckus was your own. I merely refuted your earlier comment. The Torah quoted wasn’t mine.
apy: The Rama is followed primarily by the Ashkenazic communities.
For the record, I think its a cultural shift.
Back before the industrial revolution, marriage was a lot more a contract and a necessity for farm life. There was no convenience food. If a man was harvesting wheat, he needed someone to t urn it into bread. And he needed to create farm hands (kids) to help. He needed at least one woman for that.
Nowadays, those parameters aren’t quite the same. Romance is more of a cultural thing.
Smart cookie ,Sacrilege, and Wolf
In no place did I express my personal point of view, so comments like shtark, a bit off, and the like are misplaced. I simply am trying to teach the less informed what the yeshivishe point of view actually is. When official (gedolim sanctioned)yeshivishe hashkafah is discussed, terms like romance and ” in love” are not in the vocabulary. If you like the idea of romance , be aware that it is incompatible with yeshivishe hashkafah. As far as romance within marriage is concerned, it is tolerated when absolutely necessary, but it is not a virtuous practice and should be discoraged.
This just so wrong, I don’t even know where to begin.
The Gedolim (such as Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov, R’ Akiva Eiger, etc.) “romanced” their wives during marriage.
The Stiepler in Iggeres HaKodesh writes how crucial it is to “romance” your wife.
The current generation of Rabbonim and Roshei yeshiva “Romance” their wives.
Either you have no clue, or you are talking about a specific sect (who will not be called out, as I have been warned on it before) that does these things K’neged Halacha.
of course, someone mature enough to be out on a shidduch date is mature enough to know if he/she wants to see this person again (for whatever hashkafic reason you subscribe to) and should be trusted to be allowed to say “I am interested in continuing further, you?”. If neither party is mature enough to face reality thjat either the other party is not interested in pursuing anything further or is not mature enough to answer truthfully, they should not be allowed to be out for shidduchim.
shlomozalman are you married? you’re crazy if you think that love and romance (on some level) are not virtuous or torahdik.
in the yeshivish world most people are not “in love” when they get married. they like the other and think that it will work.
Whatever “ShlomoZalmen” is saying IS NOT the yeshivishe hashkafa. I don’t know what yeshiva he goes to, but when boys in Lakewood have their Chosson shmuess a few days before their wedding, they are told THE EXACT OPPOSITE of this.
the direction this conversation is heading is a discussion I dont want my teenagers to read.
Yoma 54a tells us that we are beloved before HaShem as the love between man and woman. The reference is clearly to romantic love between husband and wife, and our relationship to the Kodesh Barchu is compared to it, not the other way around.
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