spanking

I was. It caused me to stop doing bad behavior and start acting good

Yeshiva.co has a short write up about this with halachic sources:

Question
It is my understanding that many Torah authorities urge parents to refrain from this Spanking ones children.
If it is permitted currently, are boy children, to be treated differently than girl children? If yes, why? If no, why not?
Any good works available on this subject?

Answer
There is no blanket halachic prohibition against spanking one’s children for educational reasons (Rashi Masechet Makkot 8a; Shulchan Aruch HaRav Hilchot Nizkei Guf VaNefesh, article 4). The Vilna Gaon (commentary on Proverbs 19 18-19) writes that one should not spank his children when he is very angry so as not to punish them more than is necessary to achieve an educational purpose. The halacha forbids cruelty and requires that only a minimum amount of force, if and when necesssary, be used (see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 245 10 and Pitchei Teshuva Choshen Mishpat 424 4).

The link is: https://www.yeshiva. co/ask/737
I understand that the mods might remove the link, but I wanted to properly give credit.

Disabled but not removed 😊

yes

I was spanked at home only a handful of times, but one of them is realy memorable and had a big good effect on my behavior for years. I was close to 9 years old when i got 5 or 6 hard smacks on my backside on the bare skin, it took only a few seconds and i was realy crying. I just wonder if this method is appropriate according to tznius and derech hatora, all i can tell you it is very effective and safe. My question limited only to parents spanking their own kids.

Some people get their malkes in this world and some other wait until the olam haemes until they get it R”L

let’s pray that each person is finished with his punishment COMPLETELY before s/he is removed from this temporary physical world and brought up to the true world so they don’t have to C”V go through any additional punishment.

May we all stay away from sin altogether and avoid punishment in the first place to begin with.

Before you physically strike a child, step back and talk to your rav or a frum professional you trust as to why you feel such a need. There are multiple peer reviewed studies showing that those who “spank” their children were themselves abused as children. דאָס עפּעלע פֿאַלט ניט װײַט פֿון בײמעלע

When my older brothers were in school [1970s and 80s children were spanked on their bottoms – often for very little reason.
When i was a kid they decided to bring a new guy who thought he understood chinuch so he cut down a bit on the spanking and instead invented a whole bunch of different torture including making children walk round the block without shoes, spenidng time stuck under tables, or sitting without a chair – or any combination.

At any rate i 100% sure that i came way better than my brothers – so you can draw your own conclusions….

This whole concept of consquences instead of punishment is a comes from the modern world where not punish children has become a religion. when you tell a child to put on a coat and he doesn’t he might learn from consquences to put on a coat nextime. However he did not learn to listen to his parents for the sake of it, our goal is not to make him put on a coat for life, it is rather teaching him to obey parents as kibud av vaem, and thats not achieved by qonsquences.

You are providing a trivial example. You should not spank for that, but what if a kind commits a cheit gadol? The kind strikes the momeh for example. Then the only choice is to spank.

to jkotl0327

If a child does a chait godoil stick to the shoe confiscation idea.

At least it does not serve as a way for the rebbe to release his kaas.

Or better try suspension….

To RR44

There is nothing more effective then petsh, and because it is so effective if it is given to often it loses the whole effectiveness.., so by a chet gadol there should be a good potching and by smaller things it can be suspension (or shoe confiscation if you like so much that idea..)

Most of these discussions are silly. What worked for one parent or rebbe might not work for another. There are also halachos here, some of which were recorded in prior comments. Additionally, there are hadrachos from our contemporary gedolim that are useful. It is easy to generalize from one situation to another, to create rules from certain experiences, to use specific instances to conclude a self-made halacha. These are all follies, and שומר נפשו ירחק מהם. None of us were trained in parenting before having children, and it is the exceptional rebbe who received training in such matters before being hired to teach in a classroom.

Petch is not intended to cause pain, as is clear in the gemora. It is to make a point in action that failed to transmit in words. In a wide variety of seforim on the halachos of chinuch, relevant to parents and mechanchim, there is a wealth of wisdom from Gedolei Yisroel throughout the generations. It is clear that the potch that punishes is not the one that teaches. That is clearly outside of the potch that is muttar in halacha. The first potch, under a list of conditions may be permitted (not necessarily recommended). The second one is a physical assault, and is a violation of Torah Law.

There are many more aspects to this that provide fodder for lively discussion. I have no problem with anyone attacking what I wrote. I did not contrive anything. Everything came directly from our Torah giants. If anyone wishes to move this thread into a debate, I respectfully ask that one provide direct references from the seforim of halacha. If we go there, I will share direct quotes supporting every word I wrote.

I think that it is nonsense to say that human nature changed and spanking no more effective, all modern studies are based on a wanted outcome and not on facts. Also i believe that the torah is nitschi and a passuk from shlomo hamelech is not just changed because modern day psychology, as our emuna in chidus haolam is not effected by modern day science

On my question (for those who believe in some corporal punishment) if it is appropriate to spank on a child’s behind i did not get any answer

The little i know:

You did not understand my question. I will also not disagree now about the limited use of corporal punishment, as i think it is needed but only rarely, as i wrote in one of my earlier posts. My question was about those times when it is indeed needed if it is appropiate to spank a child on that particular part of the body where you sit on, according with tznius etc.

Johnklets:

The idea of spanking on the bottom, I believe, was based on the assumption that one can inflict pain without injury. I also believe that this was not done with exposing raw skin. I am aware of situations in which the intensity and amount of petch given was enough to cause serious pain of long duration. And I know of one instance that the rebbe who did that was terminated immediately and banned from chinuch for life. Yes, the powers that be kept track of his efforts to be rehired elsewhere and insured it would not happen.

Common Saychel – it sounds like you had a terrible experience in cheder. Unless its normal. I wouldnt know. Being a girl.

Johnklets – NO IT IS NOT OK AT ALL. Who gave your parents the right to touch you in a private place?
Not tznius at all nor appropriate. Definitely lacking boundaries.
Then again, I don’t have kids of my own yet so I wouldn’t necessarily be the person to ask.

My parents did actually hit me a few times, but they were narcissistic immature people so everything they did in the name of discipline was better named as “you’re insulting my ego right now so I need to do anything I can to put you in your place as soon as possible” .
And besides for some pent-up rage that I still have they accomplished ZERO. If anything they only did the opposite of what good discipline would do for someone. And I’m not only referring to the smacks which they didn’t really do too often. But enough about that….back to your question.

A few times my mother hit me on my backside, but never without clothes.
I do know a family where one of the parents did that, and all the kids have issues.
It’s so degrading and lacks decency.

I suggest you go for therapy to talk about this.

However you should realize that most probably your parents were just copying what their parents did to them as a child, or something like that.
They probably didn’t realize the harm they were doing.
So don’t go being mad at them, but you should be aware that it was not ok at all.

Is it ok to potch in a non-degrading fashion? I’m not sure. It’s very complicated.
On the flip side you really don’t want to raise entitled kids. There are too many of them nowadays.
Maybe the answer is to first make sure you really have a strong very loving very warm relationship with the kids where they know 100% that you only want what’s best for them, then you can give them a small potch when they’re out of line (sparingly)
You definitely don’t want them to think they can get away with anything.

I have a friend like that, she is very entitled. Her mother is afraid to ever tell her what to do but now this girl mamesh has no boundaries at all. She will totally lie to people or manipulate them to get what she wants….. she doesn’t have a sense of responsibility or right and wrong….very selfish person. I know another person like that too who definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Her parents are afraid of her so she never got any kind of mussar or discipline or anything. They still hold of her until today and pump up her ego…meanwhile she doing all kinds of things against halacha and against basic human decency but they will never say a thing to her….. If she would have gotten a few petch maybe she would be different.!!

It’s very hard and complicated, no one said Tzaar Gidul Banim was easy

Yes there was johnklets asked a question about smacking underneath clothes and I answered him

Are there any current poskim or chinuch experts who advocate potching in our time and day?