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popa- I have one response.
You are right. and you are wrong. It isn’t the way it is. It doesn’t have to be the way it is. That’s my point to all my posts. Life is not black and white. We have the Torah and Hashem and thats about where it stops being so clear cut. Its clear that life isn’t supposed to be so simple- look at all the machlokes that occurs in the gemara. look at how our Gedolim are working around modern day challenges, dealing with raw Halacha and seeing how it fits.
I am not the way it is. I go to secular collage, with many bais yaakov girls (believe it or not) and I spoke with them and they told me that the system did not prepare them for university, but that their parents simply could not afford to support them, and they wanted them to go to unviersity. BH we have a good group, lots of shiurim and ways to connect back to homebase (as well we don’t live on campus).
But seriously, how do we stay frum?
Opposite to your beliefs, we don’t let what they say penetrate our being- why? Because thats who we are. We are Baruch Hashem strong in our convictions and connection to Hashem, Torah and Halacha. We can be put in any enviornment and know how to be ourselves while still respecting the people around us. We learn and study the material, e take the tests and we move on. We get our degree and we go and make a parnassa for our families. Some of us who cannot afford/ parents wont help support our families forever need to do this type of thing.
we don’t let what they say penetrate our being
It’s easy to talk that into yourself. But when they’re drilling kefira and pritzus into your head day in and day out, week after week, month after month, year after year, don’t tell anyone it has no effect on you or that you’re not affected negatively. You may not be cognizant of it but it’s happening. You will not come out on the same madreiga you went it. To think otherwise is to be in denial.
@ourtorah ur a lady?
Sam2:
What relevance does that have to the points I made?
joseph- are you speaking from experiance?
HaKatan: To your claim that they Daven for/about the Medinah instead of the Geulah.
lol OURtorah, I was gonna say that I have been reading his posts for years and haven’t let it change me a bit but your line was better.
OURt: Does one need to be a murder victim to know the danger of being killed?
syag- got your back 😉
kj- if i said yes, would you stop responding to me?
Joseph, your translation does not match what you read out of it. To quote,
“[YU and Beis Midrash L’torah] are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom. And what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger.”
Note that he said there is danger in both, but he does not say (or imply) that if one has a specific choice: Be killed or go to one of these places, that they should choose being killed. Rather, he says that the danger is similar in both places, and there is no use to flee because danger is at those places too, but he doesn’t say that the choice between certain death and YU, as it were, is death.
IEHB: Your translation is a fair reading (although I think mine is closer to the author’s intent) but even granting your understanding of the letter, your reading is still a heavy indictment of YU — that going to YU is an equal danger to remaining in Nazi Europe and facing death.
ROB -“To single out Kastner is a convenient anti-zionist propaganda ploy to deflect from their own culpability in this whole sordid story.”
You’re right. He & and the Nazis together, Not him alone!
Stop with your Zionist Lies! The Rebbe had No power. And Kastner was an agent of the Zionist regime! He didn’t act alone.
Ourtorah if ur a lady it means ur posts about getting offended were just emotional shtissim
Sam2:
Actually, here, my reference to the Jews in 1948 who wrongly prayed for the Zionist State to come into being was not to RZ/MO. Rather, it seemingly refers to ordinary frum Jews (e.g. in Meah Shearim, in the Brisker Rav’s words) who didn’t have the foresight of our gedolim who saw that a Zionist State was clearly not what Hashem wanted us to have (because, for starters, it involves severe prohibitions, of course) and thus they mistakenly davened for the State instead for the true geulah.
But since you mention it, and with all due respect, since your faith claims that the Zionist enterprise is “aschalta diGeulah” (though this is originally based on R’ Kasher’s forgery, besides for the other issues with such a position and clear objections to this position that the gedolim indicated, etc.), the RZ, liChaOrah, aren’t praying for the true geulah, but rather that it should be “completed” after its decades-long “start”.
One certainly hopes that Hashem takes those tefillos in the way that they should be expressed, though, unlike when, for example, He gave us the Zionist state in 1948 instead of Mashiach because people asked for the former instead of the latter, as per the Brisker Rav.
Health: The shoe fits just as well on both feet. You stop with your Satmar lies!
DaMoshe -“Health: The shoe fits just as well on both feet. You stop with your Satmar lies!”
First of all, I’m not Satmar! Second, why does the Truth bother you so much?!?
Health, I never said you’re Satmar, but the opinions you espouse come from Satmar.
Second, the truth doesn’t bother me at all. As I said before, the shoe fits equally well on both feet. Why does it bother you?
DaMoshe -“Health, I never said you’re Satmar, but the opinions you espouse come from Satmar.”
This shows how little you know about the Anti-Zionist world! My opinions come from Brisk.
“Second, the truth doesn’t bother me at all. As I said before, the shoe fits equally well on both feet. Why does it bother you?”
The Truth doesn’t bother me, only when people post Lies!
Health: do yo know who R’Yonasan Shteiff was?
Brisk has very similar anti-Zionism to Satmar.
Most (If not all) Gedolim before the war forbid people from going to the US or Palestine (and also Canada and the United Kingdom) calling them all spiritual wastelands, however after the war the ones who survived did go to those places so any statement by anyone before the war who did not survive it needs to be taken into context. I cant say 100% but I can say 99% that one who say things before the war and did not survive it likely would have changed their minds
Kastner was listening to the Zionist regime? That’s not from Brisk. That’s straight from Stormfront or Brother Nathanael.
Kastner was a leader of the Zionist movement in Hungary. And after the establishment of the State he was an Israeli government official.
Health – “The Truth doesn’t bother me, only when people post Lies!” – are you not used to it already?
Joseph: The logical comparison (which is also made by anti-Semites) is that “because Orthodox Rabbi X was arrested for child molestation, all Orthodox Jews ritually molest children”.
edited
Kasner was a useful idiot for Eichman who was hopping that if he appeared to try to help save some jews he might not get executed after the war (The allies promised this)
Kasner in his defense with paying ranson was no differnet that the “Blood for trucks” idea in some charedi circles. The Nazis were not interested in saving jews, they only wanted the money from American jews. The Nazis generally were not bribeable, jews paid them the bribes and the Nazis killed them anyway.
kj chusid, ladies are no more prone to emotional outbursts than other women.
zahavasdad: that description of Kastner , as a “useful idiot” may come close to the truth. Nonetheless, he saved 1400 jews that-otherwise- might have been killed. All those harebrained schemes that some very well meaning people devised -trucks for jews, etc..- was never realistic. The Allies would never give the Nazis war material. That was a true pipe-dream. At best, only a few thousand could be saved by bribes or other machinations -like giving visas. Jews in Hungary knew that Jews were being killed in large numbers- Polish refugees all told this story. The sad part was that few listened.
ROB
If you use you same logic Chaim Rumkowski the head of the Judenraat in Lodz “saved” 750 jews. He was able to stall final liqudation of the ghetto until the summer of 1944 and 750 jews remained when the russians liberated the city in January 1944.
joseph- it’s a totally fair point, and I think everything you think is completly valid. BTW I do not suggest university is for everyone, and if you can afford/get scholarships to Turro and the sort, then by all means you’ll be paying for jewish education on top of your degree.
But, like you said I am not coming out on the same madreigah I went in. I am coming out a more solidified frum girl, who is learning to navigate the system I will BH encounter everyday when I am working. I plan on being in a hospital one day, and I am learning how to maintain my frummkeit while still being able to work at a job I am good at. I don’t feel as though learning physiology and biology are kfira being stuffed into my head. Philosophy courses are a different conversation. But honestly, don’t make such general statements if you aren’t directly invovled. I would hope you would have more faith in people like me, who aren’t going because they want to be in that environment. They are going so they can support their families and the kolleim and schools in their communites.
zahavasdad: the functions of the “judenraat” in the ghettos are still a major matter of contention. Many good jews served on those doomed organizations and many will tell you that they tried desperately to save Jews. Rumkowski was vilified mainly because he enriched himself in the ghetto and acted like an autocrat. Nothing indicates that Kastner did anything like this. What is imputed to Kastner-that he knew about the final solution in Hungary and said nothing to save a few of his family is patently false. He saved many Jews who were not his family and that he did not even know. Secondly, if you know what really happened in Hungary,you will know that until the Germans took over the Hungarian government in March of 1944, there were no deportations. Only after this event, did the deportations start-and with great speed. Only two months elapsed from the seizure of the government of Hungary by the Nazis and the first deportations. It is very doubtful that anything Kastner knew would have made an iota of difference- seeing that the Hungarian Jews did not heed previous warnings by Polish refugees.
????? ?????-our forefather-was born in the jewish calender year of 1948. The state of Israel became a state of independence in the year 1948 in the secular calender. what can we learn from this? ????? ????? is our forefather, he started judaism… he was the first one to believe in Hashem & teach people all about Hashem. With the state of Israel starting in 1948 this is a sign from Hashem that Eretz Yisroel is on the route to ????? (Redemption). There are just a lot of steps to take before ???? comes. (as can be found in the book of ????? the Prophet) & this was the first step.
Joseph, I was quoting your translation. And yes, people may have had the impression that YU is such a grave place – we have discussed on previous threads how this has no practical bearing on anything.
The year 1948 or 2015 or whatever in the secular calender means absoultly nothing. It doesnt count for anything. According to the NT a birth occured when Herod was King of Judea and Herod died in 4 Bce so any gemetria between jewish 1948 and secular 1948 means nothing
IEHB: If you’re more comfortable with the original Hebrew of Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy’d’s own handwritten words, here it is:
????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????. ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?”? ?????? (?????? ????? ??????????) ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????
And it most certainly is very relevant. Rav Wasserman hy’d literally made life and death decisions based on it.
Joseph, I am well aware of the contents of the letter, and have read them previously. I was just pointing out that when you call “your” translation “closer to the authors intent” than “mine”, we were both using the same translation: that which you so kindly provided.
This thread is not about YU. Rav Elchonon’s letter could have any number of explanations (see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-mo/page/3 ) but regardless, he was not endorsing death over YU, and to say he was is dishonest, both in general and as a telling over of a halachic shittah.
With all due respect to Rav Wasserman, I doubt he thought of the idea of Gas Chambers, He likely felt there would just be anti-semitism perhaps severe Anti-Semitism. In that context his statements make sense
But like almost everyone else including people who were in the Ghettos they could not fathom the idea of mass executions. I doubt he would have chosen the choice of mass executions.
Hakantan- “But since you mention it, and with all due respect, since your faith claims that the Zionist enterprise is “aschalta diGeulah” the RZ, liChaOrah, aren’t praying for the true geulah, but rather that it should be “completed” after its decades-long “start”. “
It seems that two signs of the geulah are the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (kibbutz galuyos) and the physical restoration of the Land. Unless you think that all of the Jews in Israel will have to leave, and that Israel will have to become desolate again before Mashiach comes, it’s hard to argue that the geulah has not started.
Hakatan-
I also find it insulting how you say “your faith” with regard to Zionism. The differences between a religious Zionist and a Chareidi are so small. They disagree on how to view the state. That’s it. It’s not one of the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam. Honestly, the haskafaic differences between religious Zionist and Chareidi are far smaller than the differences between a misnaged and a chosid. Are they two different religions too?
Stop calling a machlokes in hashkafah a different religion. The inability to recognize legitimate machlokes is disturbing and a source for unnecessary sinas chinam.
??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????
He said a danger of Gashmiut, i.e. poverty. He did not say Sacanat Nefasashot.
Furthermore, he wrote the letter in 1939, two years before the Nazis y”sh were anywhere near Baronovich.
???? ?????? is not referring to “poverty”. There wasn’t a new poverty crisis that didn’t previously exist in that timeframe. Poverty was a fact of life for centuries among European Jewry. And the term ???? ?????? is not how poverty would typically be referred to.
I believe it is dated in May 1940. But even in 1939 (the year WWII broke out) the footsteps of war were loud and clear. They weren’t considering to move talmidei yeshiva halfway across the globe to find a more prosperous lifestyle. He is saying that a ???? ??????? is worse than a ???? ??????.
I believe it is dated in May 1940. But even in 1939 (the year WWII broke out) the footsteps of war were loud and clear. They weren’t considering to move talmidei yeshiva halfway across the globe to find a more prosperous lifestyle. He is saying that a ???? ??????? is worse than a ???? ??????
1940 is not 1948 , or even 1945, there is a big differnce between 1940 and 1945 and beyond
“There wasn’t a new poverty crisis that didn’t previously exist in that timeframe. Poverty was a fact of life for centuries among European Jewry.”
No new poverty, but at that time many Jews were going OTD because of poverty, something that they did not or could not do before. Secular society was more welcoming.
See what Rav Avigdor Miller said about how assimilation (Chillul Shabbat of going to work in particular) had “escalated out of control” during just the 6 years he spent in Kovno. (Beyond Reasonable Doubt By Shmuel Waldman, page 207)
“But even in 1939 (the year WWII broke out) the footsteps of war were loud and clear. They weren’t considering to move talmidei yeshiva halfway across the globe to find a more prosperous lifestyle. He is saying that a ???? ??????? is worse than a ???? ??????.”
I agree that he knew bad stuff could very well happen, but he said Sakana not “with certainty”. He was not talking about definite mass murder of about 90% of the Jews of that area.
“There wasn’t a new poverty crisis that didn’t previously exist in that timeframe. Poverty was a fact of life for centuries among European Jewry.”
No new poverty, but at that time many Jews were going OTD because of poverty.
1.I knew a rav (he has since passed on) who was from Galicia. He said that unlike in Lithuania, which was always poor, Galicia was well off as it had oil (also textile factories). However, the economic boycott of the ’30s wiped out many Jews.
2. I can’t understand how Rav Elchanan discounted the possibility of the Holocaust. The Chafetz Chaim said that the troubles and killing that the Jews have suffered till then will be, by comparison, “a kinder shpeel – child’s play.” Of course, there was a geenral tragic attitude on the part of each country’s Jewry that the Nazis ym”s meant another country’s. The French said that they only meant the German Jews, whom they blamed for the defeat in WW1, the German Jews thought they only meant the Ostjuden who had foreign ways and the Polish Jews thought they only meant the Jews of the Soviet Union, whom they considered to be Communists. Rav Soloveichik says that this teaches us forcefully that we are all in the sameboat.
” The Chafetz Chaim said that the troubles and killing that the Jews have suffered till then will be, by comparison, “a kinder shpeel – child’s play.””
My understanding was the C”C was referring to loss of emunah due to turmoil. In other words, as time goes on and societal upheaval gets larger and larger (with or without war), it will become harder and harder to have emunah.
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