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You already agreed that a Ptur from the Army should be given to anyone who wants to learn once the Army has enough people. (And the Army has more than enough even if every yeshiva guy wants to continue learning.)
“Which means as many people in the army as the experts determine necessary and everyone else learning as much as possible.”
Simcha613, why are those talui zeh b’zeh?
Ourtorah ur basically admitting ur a Zionist
Ourtorah said no such thing.
He made a statement comparing anti Zionism to anti semitism and nazism that automatically means he’s a zionist
To make it simple he supports the criminal occupation of palestine
This entire thread makes me feel incredibly sad.
Joseph,
1. Who says that they have enough? Moreover, the army needs precisely the type of soldiers yeshiva men would be – analytical types who can work in Intelligence. As for Shevet Levi, Rambam also says that in a milchemet mitzva (such as saving Jews) EVERYBODY goes (Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and 7:4).
2. If someone is not really learning but just goofing off besides the fact that he is robbing those who pay for his upkeep he is taking a deferment under false pretenses, which is geneivat daat.
3. What about having them do their service in an army bet midrash, and state explicitly that their learning is for the success of the troops as well as saying the misheberachs for the State (which is paying them so they should show some gratitude)and the soldiers?
KJ- no. I’m saying stop outwardly hating other Jews- just because they aren’t you. You want to know why I take it so personally? Because I was raised and went to school in a place that only only endorsed Zionism. And I know lots of frum people who are zionistic and they keep the Torah and the mitzvos and r very machmir. Whether in your eyes it is avoda Zara or not, should stop being the issue. They will never know that it isn’t because they will always be in that system- just as you will always be in your system.
But then that’s the problem- where does this cycle end?
So is burning flags really the right option? Maybe for ISIS and people who outwardly want to show the world they have no other care. But from a Jew to a Jew- really? If you have such an issue with it then go back inside yeshiva and learn. Stop wasting ur time hating and spend more time working on yourself.
Redbyidd- thank you
Avi: Israel’s wars don’t fit the halachic definition of a milchemes mitzvah. And Limud Torah is fully effective without any misheberachs.
Doesn’t seem like u changed to
Much over the years
The idea of burning of the flag is that just as the flag is burnt so shoud there be no Israel speedily (not burnt to the ground obviously but that basic concept)
There was a widely reported incident yesterday
A hesder yeshiva guy bumped into a chraedi yeshiva guy in Bet Shemesh and they began to talk, The Yeshiva guy asked if the Hesder guy recognized the protection of the learning does for the state, The hesder guy said he would, but then he asked the yeshiva guy if he recognized the protection the army does for the state (and the yeshivas) . The yeshiva guy walked away.
What closed minded. Do you think KJ Chosid or Joseph would have acted or said any differnetly. I know my relatives would have (and HAVE) answered basically the same thing.
And how would you have reacted in popa’s story?
KJ- it’s so sad that “change” means you would have hoped I would alienate my own family and community that I grew up in. Be honest with yourself- would me moving over to the right then completely shunning everyone do anything good? Would it bring the geulah faster? Why does change have to mean I’m a hateful person?
That’s a gross ideology. like I said before- where they burn objects they will burn people. I’d advise you to STOP wishing for the death and demise of your fellow Jews. If you really are as “riteous ” as a chassid should be, then I would think your very close to hashem. And if you are, then he will take what you ask for very seriously. If this is the case then you will have A TON of Jewish blood on your hands.
Please don’t write back to me some close minded immature comments anymore. If you aren’t a going to be open to that fact that you might be wrong (SHOCK) then there is no room for growth within you. By all means keep your hashkafa, be anti Zionist, daven for an Eretz yisreol run by Jewish law and hahsems governance- but take a lesson from POPA BAR ABBA- learn to love a fellow Jew DESPITE your differences. And stop hoping that they all burn down to the ground. Cuz let’s be real- they aren’t leaving, they believe what they believe, they will continue to educate their children that the army is the way to go and especially with people like YOU who are the reason why I would turn away from even thinking about taking on a chassidish lifestyle ( and during my growth process I fell in love with so many chassidish traditions I never knew about). But it would be someone like you that would make me reconsider.
You seem like a learned person, but your close minded ignorant and hateful stances are hurtful to me and they r destructive to klal yisreol as a whole.
Hesder guys learn in Yeshiva and go into the army, Popas story could not have happend
PBA: Wow, a serious post from you, and one I agree with, no less! Thanks! The only thing I take issue with in your post is that you hope that we can understand that these are only small differences. I disagree with that bit. These are very big differences, but even so, what we have in common is much greater. Your ruchniyus does take a hit by not going to the army, and even more so if you treat the army as an unmitigated evil. Refusing to go, or at least to identify with and support the people who do go, is an act of secession from the Jewish people which trains you and your segment of klal yisrael (this “you” is totally generic, I’ve lived in communities on both sides of the issue) to feel like the rest of the Jewish people is an alien “other.” I can understand if you weigh everything and decide that the best option for your ruchniyus is not to go, but you really are sacrificing something by not going.
That’s just my two cents as someone who lost a lot of sleep when I ran back to America instead of joining machal to serve along with my chavrusa.
funny thing.. all my years in yeshiva never had a problem with low morals.. women.. mingling.. etc. – oh I was missing “Jewish Army ruchnius”!!
Hear ya!!
U don’t have to shun them u have to shun there ideals
Burning a flag is bad for the environment and is therefore wrong regardless of what the flag stands for.
1/2In this period after the Passover holiday, Zionists call upon the Jewish people to celebrate the Zionist Independence Day and Holocaust Day, which are about one week apart. Of course neither of these days have any basis or source in the Jewish religion. It is rather ironic that the Zionists claim to commemorate the deaths of Jews during World War II, since the Zionists ignored many opportunities to save Jews while the Holocaust was happening. The Zionist leaders prefered to see Jews perish in Europe rather than have the opportunity to emigrate to any countries other than the Zionist colony in the Holy Land.
The esteemed late Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum compared the case of the Zionists to the story of an arsonist who sets fire to a house, and then runs to the family in the house to help save their belongings. The great irony is that it was the arsonist who started the fire to begin with! And this has been the Zionist movement: always seeking to cause and exploit Jewish suffering, and then to claim to be the savior of the Jewish People.
Below is a statement made by the late Rabbi Teitelbaum many years ago with reference to the Zionist Independence Day, and the prohibition against celebrating the day of rebellion against G-d and Judaism.
“We must not minimize the seriousness of the grave sin of rejoicing or appearing to rejoice and making a festival on the terrible Day of Blasphemy that they call Yom Ha’Atzmau’t (Independence Day). The day that the members of the conspiracy against G-d and his Messiah established their State of atheism over the Jewish People, uprooting the Holy Torah and the our faith, ushering in a period of bloodshed and suffering for myriads upon myriads of Jews.
This is much worse than accepting idolatry because they not only accept it but celebrate and rejoice in the terrible rebellion against G-d and His Holy Torah.
There are many sinners and deniers of the Jewish religion whose hearts trouble them because they are not serving G-d, but who are unable to withstand temptation and deceitful ideologies which confuse them. However, those who rejoice in this sin are guilty of much worse blasphemy.
May the Merciful save us from them and from their followers, and strengthen our hearts and enlighten our eyes in His Torah and in His service.”
(from the magnum opus of Rabbi Teitelbaum, called Vayoel Moshe, Vol. II, ch.157 )
2/2 All Jews untainted by Zionist heresy experience the bitter realization of how the Zionist heretics worked relentlessly throughout the years to uproot the Jewish People from their religious faith, and even to bring about untold physical suffering through the prohibited provocations against the nations. The Zionists have been the ones who have enflamed the fire of hostility against the Jewish People in ways too numerous to enumerate.
It is for this reason that many great rabbis called on faithful Jews to fast on the Zionist Independence Day, and to beseech G-d Alm-ghty to have mercy and grant peace to those people living in the Holy Land.
Rabbi Teitelbaum wrote that in previous generations great rabbis would have declared an obligatory worldwide fast day for such a dark day as the Zionist Independence Day, the basis of which is every sin in the world, especially bloodshed and promiscuity. He even said that such rabbis of the greater previous generations would have declared hundreds of days of fasting such as the Ninth of the Month of Av (commemorating the destruction of the ancient Temple in Jerusalem). He also stated that G-d rejects the religious holiday observances of anyone observing the Zionist holiday. The sources for his inspirational statements in Hebrew can be found in many places among his writings such as Hiddushei Torah, 1955/56, p, 52; ibid., p. 109; ibid., Sukkoth, p. 110.
A similar statement was made by Rabbi Avraham Yishaya Karelitz, the Chazon Ish. On the fifth of Iyar in the last year of the Chazon Ish’s life (1953), he was honored to officiate at three different circumcision celebrations. Still, he requested that the Tachanun prayer, usually omitted on such occasions, be said, lest someone come later on and testify, “The Chazon Ish did not say Tachanun on the fifth of Iyar,” without revealing the circumstances. He once said, “It would have been proper to declare the fifth of Iyar a public fast day.” (Mishkenos Haro’im, p. 1196)
since the Zionists ignored many opportunities to save Jews while the Holocaust was happening
The Holocaust was well known by the anti-zionist leaders of religious Hungarian jewery and they did nothing , they told their followers nothing and did not encourage them to do anything (The Holocaust in Hungary did not begin until 1944 when the attrocoites of Auscwitz was known)
kj chusid,
How is burning a flag not considered chukas hagoyim?
zahavasdad,
Do two wrongs make a right?
kjchosid: hmmmm……can you tell me how Reb Joelish was saved during WWII? methinks it was one of those Zionist “arsonists”…wasn’t he?
He had a paid-for seat on the train that Eichmann allowed out of Hungary. He should thank Eichmann more for allowing the train out
(there was no way for the train ride to exist or be able to leave if not for Eichmann’s approval) than to thank Eichmann’s Kapo Kastner for selling the leftover seats that were still available after he gave away most of the seats to his entire immediate and extended family and zionist colleagues, after he traded receiving all that for the price of Kastner facilitating Eichmann’s liquidation of Hungarian Jewry and keeping quiet about the Vrba-Wetzler Report.
DM: That’s a boldfaced lie that does not contain a single shred of truth in its deceitful untruthful attack against one of the Gedolei HaDor of the last generation.
Despite that, it is certainly true that Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy’d wrote (the ksav yad is available) that it is better to die a physical death at the hands of the Nazis than to be saved by YU which could cause one’s spiritual death.
DaMoshe- it looks like your research was done only from the Zionist perspective. While the Satmar rebbe did not want to cooperate with the Zionists on coordinating rescues on his people, he did work really hard to save their lives. He encouraged his followers to go into hiding or get visas to America. He felt that working with the Zionists would be causing many of his followers to lose their religion altogether. It is preferable to die than to lose Olam Haba, is it not? Don’t forget that the Satmar Rebbe himself went to Bergen Belsen. He didn’t exactly take the first flight to the US when trouble came along. Read what Dr. Ferenz Kennedy says about his time in Bergen Belsen with the Rebbe. You don’t have to agree with him, but try to open your mind a little to another perspective.
What a wide spectrum of views. Zionist, anti-zionist, and everything in between. However despite all of our differences, cant we appreciate what we DO have in common. We are all a bunch of batlanim that sit on internet chat rooms instead of spending our time living up to the ideals that we purport to be advocating.
Instead of bashing each other, akuperman and kjchusid- spend some time learning a little torah. And to you armchair zionists, why dont you make aliyah, and help build up the country instead of waisting your time fighting satmar tuna baygels on-line.
Joseph: Try reading “A Million Jews to Save” for a potentially different side of the story. I haven’t done the research to know who’s right. But I think you haven’t either. And even if you have, there are still plenty of people who quote neo-Nazi propaganda on the history without knowing the facts. Honestly, it makes me really sad.
Sam: Have you read Min Hameitzar (or its English translation The Unheeded Cry) by Hagaon Harav Michael Dov Weissmandl?
Regarding Kastner, even Israeli Judge Benjamin Halevy said of him that he “sold his soul to the devil”.
Not that the evidence of his treachery is lacking. Even after the war, Zionist Kastner defended Nazi SS Officer Kurt Becher in the Nuremberg Trials, saving this Nazi who killed numerous Jews from the gallows.
PBA:
As mentioned before, the Brisker Rav stated that “The State they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the Cheit haEigel”.
Of course all of this was Yad Hashem.
(So was everything else, including the Holocaust.)
Regarding “miracles”, at least in 1967, the CIA’s web site (I won’t ask the mods to put in the link) informs very clearly that Israel’s victory in 1967 was NOT a miracle and that this was Zionist propaganda, etc.
As to 1948 and any other potential miracles, since the alternative would have been the deaths of tens of thousands of “soneihem shel Yisrael”, there really was no good alternative, was there?
Is everyone grateful that Hashem chose to spare His people? Of course. But that’s wholly irrelevant to the topic of Zionism.
As the Brisker Rav also noted, the State came into being not because of the politics and reshaim, etc. It came into being solely because some frum Jews were misguided into asking for the State instead of asking for the geulah. So Hashem gave them what they asked for, unfortunately, instead of the real solution that they could have received had they asked for that instead.
Instead of listening to his words and recognizing that grave mistake of historical proportions, many Jews today still pray for this idol instead of for all Jews to be safe and for the true geulah.
Again, I’m not sure where you got “greatest miracles of our era”, but even if this were true, this does not legitimize the A”Z of Zionsm in even the slightest way.
Instead of being “pocheis al shtei haSiifim”, it would make much more sense to drop the idolatry of Zionism and instead follow just the Torah.
Similarly, the “growth of the State” is also silly to “emotionally connect with”. Again, what is the alternative?
Moreover, there are many Jews living there, many of whom have nothing to with Zionism. Are you implying that it is “wondrous” that they have achieved anything despite the abomination of Zionism? It seems pretty logical that Hashem blesses His people wherever they may be. What does their location being in E”Y have to do with this?
Many people continue to direct their tefillos to ask that the State be strengthened, etc. Obviously, as of this writing, we have not yet been zoche to the geulah. So would you prefer that Hashem have kept everyone there in a time warp to 1948 and not allowed the Jews there to make any advances even though the idolatrous State is a gross abomination in His eyes?
Besides, who knows how much chesed Hashem has done for His children in chutz LaAretz? Maybe He performed more miracles for the Jews in France than anywhere else? We have no idea.
So if anyone “connects emotionally” with anything in E”Y any more than they “connect” with nissim or anything else in chutz laAretz, then, liChaOra, there must be some Zionist leanings tainting his perspective.
HaKatan: Read the Tefillah L’Shalom HaMedinah and tell me where people aren’t Davening for the Geulah.
Oh, and trivia question for you: What’s the MO/RZ standard greeting on Yom Ha’atzma’ut?
HaKatan,
1. Of course the Holocaust was yad Hashem. Do you believe in two gods?
2. It is obvious to all that the State is a giant step toward the final Geula. Virtually everyone admits this. It is impossible to brush off regaining national independence (see Rambam at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka), kibbutz galuyot with almost half the world’s Jews now living in EY, a strong economy and defense force, more people learning Tora than ever before. True, we still have a way to go but the Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1)says that the Geula comes slowly in stages. We are now in one of the advanced stages.
Kastner was no Zionist, He was a traitor and an opportunist which is why I did not bring him up in regards to the Satmar Rebbe, he only saved the Satmar rebbe because “His train” had only his friends and family and some associates and none of them were relgious, It was more of a crony train, He got alot of flack for this and allowed some frum yidden on the train including the Satmar rebbe.
Avi I’m starting to get a feeling that u don’t support the Palestinian struggle for self determination
zahavasdad: you are buying into anti -zionist propaganda. What you wrote about Kastner is false. On that train was R”Jonasan Shteiff (av bes din of pest and no zionist) and his whole family, on that train were people that I knew and know- with no ties to Kastnr at all. The people were chosen at random and very little favoritism was shown. And if there were family members -would you not have protected your own family in such a situation? Schindler -a gentile- is immortalized because he saved 1400 jews. Kastner did the same, at much greater peril to his life. I am not immortalizing Kastner, but many people in Hungary knew what was going on in those camps- Polish refugees came to Hungary and told the people to flee for their lives but no one listened. Read some of the war stories by survivors and you will see that it was plain that the Nazis were out to kill all Jews in Europe. To single out Kastner is a convenient anti-zionist propaganda ploy to deflect from their own culpability in this whole sordid story.
Joseph, you are lying when you say that Rav Elchonon Wasserman said it is better to die than be saved physically and go to YU. He said “what’s the use?” to be in danger physically than to be in (what he believed to be) danger spiritually. There’s a big difference.
IEHB: Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s exact words, as he wrote (in which the ksav yad is available), is thus:
“The yeshivos in America which are able to bring over students are the yeshivas of Dr. Revel (named Yeshiva University) in New York and Beis Midrash L’Torah in Chicago and they both are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom. And what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger.”
Unambiguously, Rav Wasserman hy”d is saying it is better to die at the hands of the Nazis than to be saved by YU due to its spiritual danger. Clearly he is referring to the risk of one’s spiritual death being a greater tragedy than one’s being physically killed.
No offence to everyone- if we’re building kids who are not equipped to be in any situation and still be themselves I think we will have failed as trying to pass on Judaism. If they cannot deal properly with being with their own other fellow Jews- let alone go out into the goyish world, that’s simply sad.
Spiritual death is only likely you produce a child who can be penetrated easily.
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