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It is impossible for any Jew with who is not emotionally dead to fail to connect emotionally with the miracles of 1948 and the subsequent growth of the state, and the miracles of the subsequent wars, unless they are using enormous energy to fight it. And for any frum Jew to fail to see it as yad Hashem.
The only difference is to whether to ascribe “religious significance.”
But what does that really mean or matter once I’ve already agreed that it is yad Hashem and the greatest miracles of our era?
So, I don’t say Hallel today, but I also don’t mourn on yom hashoah. These aren’t my special days for thanking Hashem and for mourning, respectively. That is not a big difference between us.
And I wouldn’t send my kids to the army, because I think it would harm their ruchniyos, but I respect, thank, and love you and your kids for defending our people. I hope you can accept this is not a big difference between us.
1. If it is yad Hahem why does it not have “religious significance”?
2. What about the damage to their ruchniyot by not serving. Not to mention that they will either have to leave EY or live by shnorring as they will not be able to get jobs here.
Avi K: He meant any more religious significance that the Yad Hashem that we don’t see every day. It makes sense.
pba: if you think the army is bad for your kids’ ruchniyus, would you have them do Sherut Leumi or some other type of service that is in lieu of military service? I believe serving on Magen David Adom qualifies, would you encourage them to do something like that?
1) These aren’t my special days for thanking Hashem and for mourning, respectively. That is not a big difference between us.
I disagree. There’s a big difference.
2) And I wouldn’t send my kids to the army, because I think it would harm their ruchniyos, but I respect, thank, and love you and your kids for defending our people. I hope you can accept this is not a big difference between us.
Again, I disagree. See Avi K’s response (not that I agree with him, but it’s a big difference, and he left out the most contentious point).
Its easy to send someone elses kids to protect you
Miracle, only in the sense of “Hashgacha Pratis.” Consider:
1. The Brits wanted to keep their Empire, but the Americans wouldn’t let them. By 1948 Britain was little better than a client state of the Americans. Remember the British plan was for the Israelis to lose and then ask Britain to return and save them, thereby showing how necessary the Empire was (same strategy used in Ireland and India, and failed everywhere).
2. The British and French had prevented the Arabs from building up Arab armies (since they didn’t trust them), so while Israel was invaded by “five” Arab armies, they were armies in name only – untrainined and poorly equipped. They had no meaningful naval or air forces. While the Israeli equipment was a “mash up”, Israel had a large number of well trained, combat experienced veterans including those who served in British units (both the ones recruited in Palestine and elsewhere), not to mention veterans of various resistance groups, and veterans of the various allied armies.
3. The Israelis were fighting on internal line, whereas the Arabs were split so, for example, the Egyptians couldn’t help the Syrians. The fact that the different Arab units couldn’t stand each other was also an asset.
4. Public opinion in the west strongly supported Israel. When the US arrested people for sending weapons to Israel, the juries refused to convict. While the Americans stayed neutral, and the Brits were still hoping to return, the rest of the world was anxious to see the Israelis win since it would bring down the British Empire once an for all, thus groups as divere as the Irish Republican Army, the Mafia, and the KGB helped the Israelis fet weapons.
Wow guys. Not cool. PBA tried sending a very nice post. Don’t be stupid in jumping on it.
zdad – I may agree with you in theory but in this case I don’t agree at all. I wanted desperately to move to Israel and had plans to do so for years. I have been blessed with seven sons and didn’t think I could handle even the thought of sending them to the army (emotionally, not even speaking ideology here). Ultimately, that had nothing to do with why we did not move but it was seriously on my mind, not knowing if my children would be full time learners or where their paths would take them.
Although I am free from that dilemma in regard to my own kids, I have many relatives and friends who have children in the army and I find it no easier. I cringe at every announcement of an injury and if we could have no army at all (no need for one) I would dance with joy. Yes, it is easier to let others do you “dirty work”, but these “others” are Jews who are putting themselves at physical and sometimes spiritual risk and I feel no comfort from that.
akuperma
After the Miracle of the 6 day war, the Satmar rebbe said it happend in spite of the zionists.
Rav Yaakov Kammentzky then said that Hashem doesnt need the Satmar Rebbe’s permission to do a miracle
ZD hit the nail on the head. That’s precisely the “most contentious point” I was referring to.
Halevai he and others would accept what popa said, that the reasons we don’t send are ideological/religious, not chas v’shalom because we think your kids’ blood is cheap.
PBA- just wanted to let you know how refreshing and respectful that was. I’m impressed by the way you are accepting of people who are not like you, but still Firm on your hashkafa. If my kids grow up to express themselves the way just did- that being a respectful person but strong in their hashkafa, I will know they were raised just right.
“2. What about the damage to their ruchniyot by not serving.”
honestly, i dont post much anymore, but that statement is utterly ridiculous.
As I wrote on the other thread, the religious see and acknowledge the Yad HaShem always, and readily give praise to Him, while beseeching for the future. Religious significance on this day?!? For what?! Any Ness happened on this particular day? I see only a day of open chilul HaShem (and chilul Shabbos). “Let us be like all other nations…” (straight out of his Drasha). What religious significance is to be attached to that.
This is a purely nationalistic level holiday, as they so said – like all other nations… Laying wreaths.. moment of silence.. declaration of independence.. – just like, and copying, all other nations. (Yom Yerushalaim too, the iconic raising of the flag over the Kosel, exactly copying the famous Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima)
And the most learned, accomplished poskim here on the CR should be quick to point out (as I wrote) that this should be a clear Issur d’Oraisa of Chukos hagoyim. (some dare accuse a minhag as such..)
Of course we have to appreciate soldiers who do defend our people. But who put them there? Whose decision to start this whole thing? Whose decision to give back land, money etc. to sworn enemies of our people and then have to defend against them moments later.
Anyone here care to remember how the PLO was almost phased out until some “smart” individual cared to revive it, deals.. land..
So do we really have to be thankful for the mess these “leaders” have done? Again, one-on-one, in the current situation, we’re in a rut, so we use their protection, with the help of HaShem, but no thanks to the “leaders”
And AviK- yes, there is a REAL DANGER to the Ruchnius of soldiers serving. I’ve had relatives there… (one who made it into the news section…)
ZD: As (I think) Rabbi Galinsky replied to this very observation, they ARE on the front lines – in a different regiment. Their contribution, input to the war / security effort? PRICELESS!! How many korbonos did they protect, safeguard, avoid? Do you know??? How many disasters did they cause to be averted??? Do you know??? Yes, the bnei Yeshivos ARE contributing.. to a different effort, area!! No, you (and no one) wants to risk doing away with that.
DaasYochid,
I agree that the notion zahavasdad expressed was offensive, and derogatory, but why should we define that notion as the other side of popa_bar_abba’s “us” as opposed to, say, those who agree with Sam2’s responses?
Akuperma,
1. The Egyptians had tanks and an air force
2. The Arab Legion was well tra
3. The Israelis had no tanks and very little artillery
4. The Israelis were great outnumbered
5. The Israelis had only a handful of old WWII era planes
In other words, despite your claims, it was a miracle that they prevailed. Also, Britain was bankrupt and wanted no part of th expense of policing Palestine
Avram in MD, chas v’shalom do I think that there is only “us”, and those who think that way.
But the sentiment ZD expressed is hardly a daas yochid. It’s been expressed, sometimes more respectfully, sometimes less, on the CR several times, and to me personally.
I was not addressing those who can respect that our position is sincere, I was only addressing those who don’t.
Very nice post, pba.
I can see you’re making a valiant, articulate effort to bridge the gap.
The problem is that the gap is not just ideological; there’s a lot of emotion there as well. On both sides.
As a mother who would not encourage her sons to join the army, it doesn’t help me find an answer to what for me is the most difficult question of all:
When I meet a Jewish mother (just like me even if she looks a little different) who has lost a son, how do I look her in the eye?
DaasYochid,
I understand and agree, but I think popa_bar_abba was directing this thread specifically to those who are interested in seeking common ground. He’s directing the others here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-this-is-what-weve-been-waiting-2000-years-for/page/2#post-566799 🙂
I have plenty of Charedi relatives and they say things like there is no difference between the catholic church and the Kennesset. Many disparaging things here have been said about Rav Kook.
When the whole country shuts down to respect the dead, the chreadim continue going on like nothing is happening.
In fact there is a post on the news area about the Israeli Flag flying at Ponovich like it does every Yom Haatzmaut and of course there is a negative comment about it.
ZD: As (I think) Rabbi Galinsky replied to this very observation, they ARE on the front lines – in a different regiment. Their contribution, input to the war / security effort? PRICELESS!! How many korbonos did they protect, safeguard, avoid? Do you know??? How many disasters did they cause to be averted??? Do you know??? Yes, the bnei Yeshivos ARE contributing.. to a different effort, area!! No, you (and no one) wants to risk doing away with that.
How much security did the yeshivas provide against the Nazis. Yes learning is important, but so is also fighting for your right to exist with a gun. Sometimes you have to learn and other times you have to fight.
PBA, I have always liked your hilarious posts. This, though, is my favorite post of yours. Thank you, and I’m impressed.
Everyone else: Like Sam said, I beg you not to argue on this thread. Please, as a favor to a fellow Jew.
zahavasdad: The Poles had a very big army, with lots of weapons and training, and it didn’t do them much good. The French put all their resources into their army, and they got conquered after a few days of fierce combat. The truth is that Poland and France never recovered from World War II (which is why the FBI director hit a raw nerve when he criticized the Poles last week).
We put our resources into Torah and Mitsvos, and we are here. We won. You can say we won because the Americans were clever, and the British and Soviets were determined – but really, we won because instead of putting resources in warfare, we put it into serving Ha-Shem.
Sooner or later the Islamic world will get its act together, and the zionist dream will go up in smoke. The battle for Jewish survival is the one being waged today in the yeshivos, and homes, of the Bnei Torah – the battle being fought by the Israeli army is an irrelevant distraction.
Were burning an israeli flag here by yeshiva
Akuperma, the Polish army still used horse cavalry and their outdated weapons and air force were no match for the Nazis modern army,tanks and planes. France poured their resources into the Maginot line, not their army. The Nazis simply enter thru Belgium
ZD: I know that line about the nazis, you’ve used it time and again.
To answer (it’s not me that has to defent ?????? ?? ???? of ??? ????? ??? ???????, and ??? ???? ??? ????). No one know what would have been if not for those learning. Care to remember the last Shiur of R. Elchonon HY”D, American Yidden being saved through them… Second of all (as I’ve always responded when you brought this one up), no one knows the Cheshbonos of HaShem during that most darkest period of Klal Yisroel. Who yes, who not. How much. How Many. R”L. It’s was a very intense darkness of hester panim, many Torah greats had their Ruach Hakodesh and Daas Torah taken away (???? ????? ???? ????? ????). But to say that Torah does not protect is r”l apikrosos, so sais the Gemarah.
And you’re correct, some gotta learn other gotta fight (hey, the mess is here). Are the chayalim ready to conform to a Torah lifestyle???
As to who contributes more, kindly take a tip from a USA Military instructor (I think at West Point), when asked in middle of a course about the Israeli wars. He was visibly shaken, and told the student after the “shiur” never to mix in the Israeli conflicts, military, warfare etc. “If you got any brains in your head you’d see it just doesn’t make any sense. It has nothing to do with their army or soldiers. It’s plainly their God who’s doing it all”. (story brought down somewhere – I read too much)
“Sooner or later the Islamic world will get its act together, and the zionist dream will go up in smoke.”
You’re dreaming of a mass murder of Jews?!! Disgusting!!!
Burning the Israeli flag is bad for the environment.
kj chussid: It’s good practice. I know something else that will be burning eventually…
I hope LF you remember this quote
Zeev Jabotinsky in 1937
I just read a terrible thing here.
I can’t believe the mods let it through, but I don’t think I may just let it pass without any response, as it borders on (or is actually, Ch’v) kefirah.
A poster asks-how much security did the Yeshivos provide against the nazis?
How dare you ask such a question!
Answer : We do not know.
We do not know the cheshbonos of the RBS”O.
No matter how many threads we start discussing nigleh and nistar and everything in between.
No matter how many posts we post or read on suffering, on gilgulim, on reward and punishment.
We, the proud possessors of human brains, are just that- human beings.
We do not have all the answers.
We don’t need all the answers.
Ashreinu- we were given the Torah. We were put on this earth to learn Torah and observe Mitzvos.
We cannot fathom or pretend to understand the s’char given to those who toil in Torah in Yeshivos, or the benefits that every creature on earth derives from their Torah study.
We have no right to make calculations or cost benefit analyses regarding their accomplishments.
The only choice we have is to join them, support them, or ignore them.
I don’t know if there is any religious significance to the State of Israel. I don’t even know if it’s really a “Jewish state” (I mean, an organization has to be halachic to be Jewish… I wouldn’t consider a reform temple a Jewish institution simply because they call themselves Jewish, are by Jews, and claim to represent Jews).
I celebrate Yom Haatzmaut and say Hallel beleiv malei, not because of the State, but because the government of the Land of Israel (in this case it happens to be the State of Israel) has allowed us to return to our land en masse… and through this government there is more Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar.
Hodu LaShem ki tov. Me’eis HaShem hayso zos, hi niflas be’eineinu.
Golfer, with all due respect, by making an unequivocal statement that learning protects us ( and with no exceptions ) you are the one making cheshbonos. It I’d not kefira to point out , not just the Holocaust, but all the massacres and pogroms over the last thousand years. You’re right in that we don’t know what was prevented, but please don’t say Torah study is a blanket protection when it obviously hasn’t been
akuperma: No one says that learning Torah doesn’t have value and is a source of protection. At the same time, learning Torah with no effort at self defense has proven throughout our history, not to be enough. Hashem does his part when we do our own hishtadlus.
Yeshivas and shuls have been attacked. They are both a mokom Torah, yet we all know what occurred . Both are necessary. It was always the Tzaddikim that were supposed to fight, since they has a greater protection. I think that is still the case as represented by the Hesder and other Yeshiva bochrim that leave Yeshiva and go fight to protect everyone else.
There was a story from the war in 1948, when Yeshiva’s were asked to send bochrim to dig ditches to prevent Jordanian tanks from attacking. Israel had no other defense against them at that time. The Yeshiva’s refused. B”H, the bochrim had more seichel and went when they were approached directly and it worked. What they did had far more benefit to them and everyone else. Had they just sat and learned while the tanks destroyed everything in their wake, they wouldn’t have survived and the country ch’v, could have been lost.
Again, everything is min HaShamayim, but we have to do our part first.
akuperma- “Sooner or later the Islamic world will get its act together, and the zionist dream will go up in smoke.”
you know what is so crazy, you think zionism and judaism are so seperate that you are willing to hope for the destruction of your own brothers and sisters? YOU might not be zionistic, I might not be zionistic, but you sound no worse than the “Israeli apartheid studnet group” at my school. They claim they are “antiJewish” only anti “israel”. in reality, its clear they simply hate Jews, as when they chant it is death to Jews, and spit on the Jews.
If Chas Veshalom the world falls to islamic terror, then you can bet you will be caught up in it too. Your children could not be learning in yeshivos in eretz yisroel without the
zionistsprotecting them.Start learning to accept them for who they are. If you had a brother who in your eyes was off the derech, would you hope that he died? would you cut him off? someone with a frum outlook as you should surley know that the first thing to do is embrace them. It should be no different with your other “brothers and sisters”.
Golfer: I’m sure he was just waiting to see how I respond to him.
ZD: I’m not sure I know what you’re getting at. I don’t exactly know this quote. In fact I’m not sure I remember this fellow. Did he know me? Hmm.. 1937.. I must have been about 42 at that time..
Lessch, are you confusing me with another poster?
I don’t see where I said any of the things you say that I said.
Has anyone suggested that Torah is a blanket protection?
I know I didn’t.
Nor did I say anything else you suggested.
Confused…
Must be that human brain, hard at work and still not able to figure everything out.
KJ- “Were burning an israeli flag here by yeshiva”
Don’t feel so haughty about hating other Jews so much… Your actions of burning are no better than what the Nazi’s did in the 1930’s, and what the Palestinians do today.
BarryLS1:
And so is the reverse true, read what I wrote. Without the Torah of Eretz Yisroel C”V…. Let no one fool you. Anyone with a clear mind can discern the openness of had HaShem.. due, NO QUESTION to, the Yeshivos and learning in Eretz Yisroel. You’re not the one who’s actually keeping score, do you happen to know what would have happened had those bachurim stayed and continued to learn?!? How many more open nissim we would have seen?? DO YOU KNOW? As I wrote (only one sentence ago) even gentiles recognize the closeness and involvement of Yad HaShem in Eretz Yisroel; how foolish is it to say ??? ????? ???, this strategy did it, this maneuver won.. So you say “B”H, the bochrim had more seichel” etc. perhaps one day (after studying that particular battle, in depth) you’d come to the conclusion that ” alas, the bochrim were foolishly persuaded and left the hallowed walls of the Bais Medrash to foolishly attempt…” ?? ??? ?? ????? ???
and lesschumras, yes it is a blanket statement, Gemarah says so, and states “an instance of an apikores.. one who ridicules ‘what benefit caused these scholars'”.
As BarryLS1 wrote:
Again, everything is min HaShamayim, but we have to do our part first. And most in the Torah community are. The best way possible. With fantastic, wondrous results. ?? ????? ???.
Little Froggie- you misinterpret lesschumras. He wasn’t saying scholars don’t cause benefit. And he wasn’t ridiculing them either. He was pointing out that there is no source that says Torah provides ABSOLUTE protection, and clearly, historically, it has not provided absolute protection… and he was explaining that to those who claim otherwise.
LF: You are wrong and distorting things on many levels. I’ll just take the basics from each paragraph.
And so is the reverse true, read what I wrote. Without the Torah of Eretz Yisroel C”V…. Let no one fool you. Anyone with a clear mind can discern the openness of had HaShem.. due, NO QUESTION to, the Yeshivos and learning in Eretz Yisroel. You’re not the one who’s actually keeping score, do you happen to know what would have happened had those bachurim stayed and continued to learn?!? How many more open nissim we would have seen?? DO YOU KNOW? As I wrote (only one sentence ago) even gentiles recognize the closeness and involvement of Yad HaShem in Eretz Yisroel; how foolish is it to say ??? ????? ???, this strategy did it, this maneuver won.. So you say “B”H, the bochrim had more seichel” etc. perhaps one day (after studying that particular battle, in depth) you’d come to the conclusion that ” alas, the bochrim were foolishly persuaded and left the hallowed walls of the Bais Medrash to foolishly attempt…” ?? ??? ?? ????? ???
Everyone here is agreeing that Torah protects to some extent. Everyone here is agreeing that the army protects to some extent (I think; you don’t believe that without an army the Arabs would miraculously be unable to walk in on those learning, do you?). Your point is if Torah learning is lessened one iota that it could cost us protection. I’ll reverse your question. How do you know? How do you know that some of those Bochurim in Yeshiva could have stopped a terrorist attack if they had been in the army like HKBH wants? You don’t know and I don’t know. No one can know. Seichel and Torah dictate we have to try and do our best. Which means as many people in the army as the experts determine necessary and everyone else learning as much as possible.
and lesschumras, yes it is a blanket statement, Gemarah says so, and states “an instance of an apikores.. one who ridicules ‘what benefit caused these scholars'”.
Find me where the Gemara says that “Mai Ahanu Lan Rabannan” is in reference to their Torah learning protecting us from physical danger. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t exist.
As BarryLS1 wrote:
Again, everything is min HaShamayim, but we have to do our part first. And most in the Torah community are. The best way possible. With fantastic, wondrous results. ?? ????? ???.
There are wonderful results (lots of Talmud Torah) and there are certainly not wonderful results (terrorist attacks R”L). I will hope that your Tefillah of Kein Yosif isn’t applying to antisemitism and terrorism. Because the status quo might be better than all of Jewish history, but it certainly isn’t something we should want to continue.
There is a precedent in Jewish history for the correct approach to warfare. In the Midbar, 1000 from each Shevet went to fight. In the times of Dovid Ha’Melech, there was a rotation. One third fought while the other 2/3 remained behind to Daven and learn for the Hatzlacha of those on the front lines.
In my Yeshiva, during times of active war, the R”Y puts a sign-up sheet on the wall. It is for Bachurim and Avreichim to accept hours of learning Chok v’Lo Ya’avor from 6:00 AM until 12:00 midnight. He explains that it should really be round the clock, but he hesitates giving the Yetzer Hara foothold to destroy the Sedarim of the Yeshivah. He also gives strong Musar regarding the strengthening of Hasmada during Sedarim. If we are partners in protection, then we have to step up our efforts when the battle rages!
My message to any Jew in E”Y who is not learning full-time is: We need you! There are so many missing from the two-thirds necessary to protect the rest! I eagerly await the time when our ranks are full and I too can take my turn on the front lines. Until then, I must remain in the breach where there are not enough men!
Sam: “Which means as many people in the army as the experts determine necessary and everyone else learning as much as possible.”
Beautiful. The army has an oversupply as it is. They certainly are not short personnel. If everybody who wants to learn full-time does so, the army will still not be short. So everyone who wants to learn should, and must, be in the Beis Medrash.
Why must every discussion lead to somebody being compared to the Nazis?
Little Froggie – A+
It doesn’t
Sam2:
That’s me, and that’s why I’m here – to show everyone how wrong and distorted I am.
Let’s start bottom up. My bracha that HaShem continue to shower upon us His divine protection. As I wrote, yes, truly a bracha. Do you care to know the odds against us, in all detail? Further compounded by the erection of the state and all their following blithering blunders, decisions and orders? And still HaShem protects us!! What comes to mind is the open confession of a terrorist about a year ago (Kiryas Sefer), who recognized and said he was thwarted solely by our God. And the countless other nissim, ????? ??????? on a daily basis. Eretz Yisroel is the land of HaShem and His involvement is so much more pronounced there. So yes, in spite of what does ?”? take place, let us realize the Hashgocho and Nissim, to save, avert, protect us from the odds… And may HaShem continue to protect us, shower us with His blessings…
Regarding the Apikores, read Rashi:
??? ???? ?? – ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????
if he doesn’t mean what he says, pray tell what he does.
Of course some times you have an overriding factor, but Torah in itself is protection, ???? ?????. Browse through Gemarah, Seforim (holy ones) at your leisure, you’ll find it in more than one place.
Regarding my first point, the contribution of the bnei Torah vs. those in active combat, how do I know how much.
And the answer is, OF COURSE SILLY ME DOESN’T. But HaShem does. And as proven time and again, that’s a country run entirely byad HaShem (despite His “helpers'” claim), so seichel tells us to put our effort where it’s effective most!! Simple military strategy.
Actually I’m not telling you to listen to silly little froggie – just heed the Daas Torah of true Gedolei Torah and Manheigei Yisroel, not so called “leaders”, political figures (or wannabees).
When we follow dass Torah we know we’re doing the right thing in HaShem’s eyes. And that’s what counts most in HaShem’s land.
LF: It’s not about the world being Miskayeim because they’re protecting us from Arabs. It’s about the world being Miskayeim because without Talmidei Chachamim we wouldn’t have a world.
I have no idea how that’s relevant to every single 22-year-old in Yeshivah.
Joseph: Whoa. Let’s not conflate two issues. First is whether or not it’s Muttar to learn while living off money from the Tzibbur. The second is whether or not learning gives a Ptur from the army. Just because contemporary society equates both with “Kollel” does not mean they are the same. Not in the slightest.
Also, the Rambam in Bikkurim is referring to those who want to teach Torah, not learn it.
Joseph-
The Rambam is clear that sheivet Leivi is exempt from the army and that anyone who wants to “join” sheivet leivi can by learning full time. But, the Rambam is also clear that no one is allowed to take money for learning. So if we’re going to use the Rambam as the basis that anyone learning in kollel is exempt from military service, than we should also discontinue the kollel stipend as per the shitah of the Rambam.
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