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Passing In Front of Someone Who Is Davening
One is prohibited from walking within four amos (6-8 feet)
in front of someone davening Shemona Esrai. One of the
reasons for this Halacha is that the Shechina is present in
front of the person davening, and walking in that space
with Hashem (Mishna Berura 102:15).
Rabbeinu Yonah: This Gemara is referring to stam walking in front of someone who is davening. It only applies to within 4 amos and it only applies to the passing directly in front not the sides or back.
Orchos Chaim: Based on the principle of this Gemara you have to be careful when backing out of Shmonah Esrei not to enter the 4 Amos of your friend behind you.
Magen Avraham: He says the peripheral front is like the front and it would be assur to pass there too. Therefore if passing along side from behind it would be assur to continue forward into the peripheral front area. Similarly it would be assur to back out of Shmonah Esrei Esrei into the peripheral front of someone davening behind you.
Eliyah Rabbah: Passing by the peripheral front is not assur. Therefore passing along the side into the front peripheral area or backing out of Shmonah Esrei Esrei into the front periphery of someone davening would be mutar.
Zohar: It says in the Zohar that even passing by the sides mamash is assur and the Mishnah Brurah brings this down and it seems that it is worthwhile not to pass or back out into the side area if at all possible.
Mamer Mordechai: He says the reason for this issur is because you are mevatil his kavanah. This fits well with the view of the Magen Avraham
Chaye Adam: He says the issur is because you are separating him from the Shechinah this fits well with the view of the Eliah Rabbah.
Mishnah Brurah: He says that we can be lenient like the Eliyah Rabbah if it is a shas hadchak.
If a person has a Tallis draped over his face it could be that there is no issue of the bitul kavanah but the issue of separating him from the Shechinah still applies.
This issur applies to Shemone Esrei according to everyone, some say that we should be machmir for the Krias Shema as well.
Ignored in 100% of shuls by 99% of the Kahal ??? What in the world are you talking about? This is followed by quite a number of people!!
BTW, what is someone (who is properly makpid on this) supposed to do when walking into or out of a packed shul, with there being no way to move almost anywhere without passing someone in middle of S”A? (Including times when the minyan is NOT in middle of the quiet S”A.)
Well meaning Did you come across (I remember vaguely) a quote by an Adom Gadol about people saying ??”? in public spaces i.e. aisles etc “He is a Boor B’Rshus Harabim”
Below is waht I posted in a Shul near me.
??”?
??? ???? ??????? ???”? ???”? ???? ??”? ???? ?’ ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??”? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?”? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ??”? ?”? ?’_____?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ???’ ??”? ?? ??? ?? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
If you want the “oilam” to be aware of this Halacha, why don’t you post it in English as well for those who may not understand all the words that you posted in Hebrew. I found it very disturbing that ppl who had already finished davening would converse and intefere with my kavana. and truthfully, it was usually the men. They had the loudest voices. I guess in the time of the Taz, we had the same issues. Nothing new under the sun!
many ppl are makpid on this, but like it was mentioned before, shuls are packed,baruch H-Shem,so what is one supposed to do? (even if it’s not packed, shuls do not have enough room for everyone to have his four amos- you would need a massive area for that (especially since peripheral vision is an issue here too!)
Superbabi thanks for the advice. As chazal say “let the reader of the letter be the messenger” Please be so kind and translate it. The oilam in the shul where I posted are mainly yiddish spekers.
clarification
??”? ?? ??? ?? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? was my addition. The quote from the Taz ends at ???’
Here’s another halachah that it says straight out in the Shulchan Aruch: you’re not allowed to kiss your child in shul.
There’s a very easy solution to navigating around people in a “packed house” during davening. It’s called: show up to davening on time, before anybody is anywhere near a shemona esra.
“Here’s another halachah that it says straight out in the Shulchan Aruch: you’re not allowed to kiss your child in shul. “
I actually just heard this VERY recently (it definitely is not taught in school). So how many people in the CR observe this halacha? I admit to being nichshal, especially with my grandchildren. How many fathers have not kissed their sons when they got their aliyah on their Bar-Mitzvah Shabbos?
What do you do in a shul like Shomer Shabbos or Rav Landau where people are davening SA all over the place all the time even when the minyan isnt.
You could never move.
Personally, when I’m davening Shmone Esrei and someone is standing waiting to for me to finish so that he can pass it is veruy annoying and takes away all possible kavanah. It would be better for him just to pass me so that I can daven the rest with kavana.
Same for the guy davening in front of me and finishes Shmonei Esreh before me, every 15 seconds turning around… just back up and let me finish at my own pace.
i was once davening shmona esrei in a crowded shul. I was on the ladies side where I belong but a bit in the isle because of space. a man came in to talk to his wife (not the first to do this) and actually knocked me over…he looked at me as if I was in the wrong place…..some men…usually the “machers” need to remember the point of the mechitzah
WIY: What do you do when leaving Shomer Shabbos and the only path out is through in front of someone in middle of S”A (and the minyan is not in middle of S”A — the minyan is finished.) The person must stand there for 5 minutes until the latecomer who just started S”A finishes?
Re Kissing in Shul
Here is a direct quote from The Rema 98:2
???? ???? ???? ??????????
???? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????
can someone please translate the Shelah Hakadosh quoted by the Mishnah Berura there and post it EVERYHWERE?
Oomis Asked How many fathers have not kissed their sons when they got their aliyah on their Bar-Mitzvah Shabbos? Great Question see http://www.rambish.org.il/journals/m/miderech_etz_hahaim/vol002/miderech00214.pdf for references to Poskim
In response to the complaint about wiping eyeglasses in a talis (thread ?) Perhaps a limmud zchus The SA writes ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????
Who says that wiping eyeglasses is a ?????? ?????? ???
I heard the halacha about not kissing children in shule many years ago, so I stopped. Unfortunately, the person who came over and told me about this was a big talker throughout davening. I was a bit chutzpadik, and told him I would stop kissing my children in shule when he would stop talking through davening. I kept my end of the bargain, but I don’t know if he ever did or not.
WIY: My underlying point is that often, in some shuls, you will find yourself “stuck” when trying to go to the Sefer Torah by laining, leave after davening, etc. — all times the minyan finished S”A, but some latecomers are still saying it in a strategic place that prevents some mispallelim from moving anywhere.
I’m not saying you are wrong, just pointing out the problem.
Re: 100% of shuls and 99% of the kahal. Please don’t use such a broad brush. As a matter of fact the rav in my shul spent 4 shabbosim discussing this inyan (after pesach) and most of the minyan is careful to follow what he told us.
WIY, Oh so that’s you?
Reb Menashe Klein writes that there is an understanding today when someone Shtells in middle of nowhere or even in a packed Shul, that it isn’t his space and people may pass. I think there are others, too, who pulled up Heteirim.
WIY -I heard Beshame a certain Poisek that this halacha doesn’t apply nowadays because of lack of Kavanah. I think he got this from the Aruch Hashulchan.
if someone is davening in a public aisle he’s a nuisance and one may lift him up and put him somewhere that he will not be in anyones way.
What if the two or three guys moving him, drop him?
I didn’t read thru the whole thread but all I can say is that its very hard to get around a room when there are hundreds of people davening. Example in school-there are girls EVERYWHERE you walk and while you daven there are girls all over you. How are you supposed to do anything like that? They can’t either make davening rooms the size of…..????
WIY wrote A trick is to always try to Daven by the front wall of the shul at first sight I thought you were presumptuous taking a seat on the mizrach. After reading your comments I changed my mind. Yes you are an Oiben On Yid. What do you do in the basement off schedule BH”M? Stick to the rear?
WIY wrote The only Heter I heard is that if someone is davening in a public aisle he’s a nuisance and one may lift him up and put him somewhere that he will not be in anyone’s way. But to walk in front of him? Not sure there’s a heter.
Health wrote I think he got this from the Aruch Hashulchan. I just checked http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A7%D7%91 it ain’t there.
WIY wrote The only Heter I heard is that if someone is davening in a public aisle he’s a nuisance and one may lift him up and put him somewhere that he will not be in anyone’s way. But to walk in front of him? Not sure there’s a heter.
See ???? ?????? ???? ?”? ???? PAGE ???”? for referrences
WIY – The Rov did pasken to my friend Halacha L’masseh. The part of the Shechina is simply -obviously if you don’t have kavana -there is no Shechina there. And the Rov you asked wasn’t paskening -he was just quoting the SA.
WIY -That’s why I said “I think” about the Aruch Hashulchan. I don’t care whether the Rov has a Mekor or not. Your post is one of the reasons I can’t post his name. And what you call Kavana isn’t Kavana. So that’s right no one nowadays has Kavana. And your Rov never paskened l’masseh -he just quoted the SA! If you want him to Pasken L’masseh -you have to give him the Tzidodim; Do we say this halacha applies even were people don’t have Kavana & do most people have kavana nowadays?
WIY – I didn’t say it, the Rov did. And I don’t think you actually discussed the Tzidodim with your Rov, like you claim. Stop with your nariskeit -why do we have to daven if we don’t have Kavana? You have to do Mitzvos even if you don’t have Kavana, even though some hold you’re not Yoitzay. Do you actually think the Shechina comes even when you don’t have Kavana? Maybe to you because the Shechina rests on a sick person.
WIY It may hard be hard for you to digest but we do not have Kavanah is not so novel If the psokim as far back as the Rosh’s Rebbe say ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? what would say to our Davening. We gotta do what we gotta do & concentrate but???? ??? ??????? is still a factor in Halacha.I can see a competent Posek use it as a Snif even if it is not the Aruch Hashilchon. You owe Health’s Rav an appology
??? ??”? ??’ ?? ???? ??”? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?????
??? ??”? ??’ ??- ???”? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????
???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?
????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?
Shouldn’t be here –You should be here! I think you’re the first poster who somewhat agreed with me.
WIY As a piyus for tajing you to task let me direct you to an answer to your Q on a different thread
WellInformedYid
Member
I know this isnt the place for it but I dont know where to put it,
MODS, how does one write in Bold, italics or slanted, larger fonts,
Thanks<em/>
Moderator-80
Mr. 80
<X>your text here</X>
replace X with “a” for blue. (without the quote marks)
replace X with “em” for italics
replace X with “strong” for bold
replace X with “blockquote” for blockquote.<strong/>
Use the above thread to experiment
Q: May one sit within four Amot of a person praying the Amida if an object is situated between them?
A: If an object at least 30 inches tall and 12 inches wide is situated in between a person and somebody praying the Amida, he may sit, even if he is within four Amot of the person praying the Amida (Mishna Berura 102:2); preferably, however, one should not sit in front of the person in such a case (Halacha Berura).
SOURCE:
http://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=1&SeifID=347
SBH/WIY: “a” for blue doesn’t work anymore; everything else does.
WIY -“One cant fabricate Heteirim” – I didn’t fabricate anything -the Rov did. That’s called Psak. Also, don’t make up that the Rov said- “you and your Rabbi decided NOBODY HAS KAVANA PERIOD!” Maybe he just holds that we don’t have enough Kavana that requires us to keep this Halacha! You seem to Capitalize in your last post -are you SCREAMING? Don’t get unhinged because someone who is a Poisek doesn’t agree with you!
WIY -Acc. to you 99% of people don’t follow this Halacha, so why don’t you ask your 2 Rabbonim if they can come up with a limud zecus? You obviously disagree with the Rov I quoted, so how could 99% of people be avaryawnim? Maybe you should pose this Shailah to them?
Wiy -You didn’t answer my question. There is an Inyan to be melamud zecus on people, instead of Pasuling everyone. So why don’t you ask your 2 Rabbonim if they can come up with a limud zecus?
WIY I know this is a late response but in school when you can’t just go wherever you want to its almost impossible because someone who sits behind you might start shmone esrei before you without you realizing it like some people start early. I’m not saying impossible-if there’s a will there’s a way but it definitely proves a bit more difficult in school.
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