Solid Frum Working guys

i sometimes wonder:are my posts invisible?or because they are polite everyone simply agrees with me?:)

Having a son in the parsha, who is learning and going to college, who plans to go to work after marriage, I know what this is like. He was rejected for a shiduch recently because he was not planning on learning full-time after marriage. He is very serious about his plans as well as busy with chesed work.

So, instead of talking about this, let’s try to start something new – shidduchim for only those boys who want to work/koveah itim and those girls who want such a boy for a husband.

Please get my email from YWN editors and send me your information. Let’s see if we can help each other…

My husband and I wanted our son (entering the parsha soon) to leave yeshiva and go to work/training so he will be able to support a family but were told by well respected Rabbanim to keep him in the yeshivah until he gets a shidduch.”The type of girl you want for your son only wants a learner (at least for the first year)” Seems like playing games to me this is me eldest and times have changed since I was dating.

WWoman – You have goyish hashkofos.

There are plenty of beautifully frum guys working intesely productive, beneficial, Kiddush HaShem careers helping to steward this World HaShem gave us towards Hesed and Moshiach will also comletely devoting their being to embodied Torah and Mitzvos. When yidden, men and women, help fix the shatered security and broken lives, culture, economy, and society of this Creation through work and example alog with learnig they are truly serving HaShem to the highest. There are Mekublim in the Medicine, Talmudei Hachamim in business, and Tzadikim everywhere in between. Look around.

Please stop the name calling and be civil. Thanks.

probably a good idea to clarify the terminology here

there is a difference in how one feels about goyim and their functions

vs

Jews adopting goyish values

Everyone is so busy with the poor abused Kollel wife whose wicked husband refuses to acknowledge his chiyuv to support her. Let me pose the following question;

Here is the scenario;

Guy and girl are dating. Guy says to girl – you know, my dream in life is to learn for at least 5 years after we are married – how do you feel about that? Girl says – there is nothing I would like better, I’ll work, I’ll live simply, I’ll eat bread and water, I’ll never buy new clothing, It would be my greatest zechus to support your Torah. So they get married. And he learns for a year. And suddenly girl finds out that she does not like working, she would rather stay home with her baby. And she does not like being poor. And bread and water don’t taste good. And she really would like a new sheitel. So she asks her husband to go out to work. And maybe he does and maybe he doesn’t. But my question here is – WHO IS THE VICTIM?

Now I know this is way off the point of this thread so if anyone feels like moving it to it’s own thread feel free.

I am not saying that anything in life is guarenteed, that people don’t have to be flexible, or that circumstances don’t change.

What annoys me is that pretty much whatever the circumstance is people say “nebach the poor wife” and (almost) never “nebach the poor husband was/is being pushed out of the beis medrash”

Guy and girl are dating. Guy says to girl – you know, my dream in life is to learn for at least 5 years after we are married – how do you feel about that? Girl says – there is nothing I would like better, I’ll work, I’ll live simply, I’ll eat bread and water, I’ll never buy new clothing, It would be my greatest zechus to support your Torah. So they get married. And he learns for a year. And suddenly girl finds out that she does not like working, she would rather stay home with her baby. And she does not like being poor. And bread and water don’t taste good. And she really would like a new sheitel. So she asks her husband to go out to work. And maybe he does and maybe he doesn’t. But my question here is – WHO IS THE VICTIM?

It doesn’t matter.

The bottom line is that the wife is not happy. Yes, she may well have agreed to five years, but now, after one year, for whatever reason she is not happy.

I suppose you might be in your rights to tell her to “suck it up” as she agreed to this. But, in reality, all that’s likely to do is lead to four years of marital hell for this couple as the wife’s resentment continues to build for the next four years. You might even be right in arguing that she has no such grounds for resentment, as she agreed to it — but you can’t legislate emotions and feelings. In all likelihood, if she’s really unhappy now after one year, she’s likely to grow more and more miserable as the next four years wear on.

It’s nice to look back and say “this is what we agreed on…” but the current reality is that things have changed and the husband and wife have to deal with each other based on the current reality.

This couple needs to find a rav (and, possibly, a marital therapist) to determine where to go from here. Holding her to the letter of her agreement may well spell the end of the marriage before the five years are up.

The Wolf

wolf i really liked ur post. practical, down to earth, and realistic.

perhaps your reasonings is why there are so many “fast broken marriages” lately. no good, opt out instead of stick it out. just speculating, it could be a thousand reasons, but your logic is right on.

thanks.

“But my question here is – WHO IS THE VICTIM?”

No victims. But assuming he is Ashkenazic and gave his wife a standard Ashkenazic Orthodox ketubah, he has a halachic obligation to support her, even if he has to quit yeshiva. Even if he has the potential to become the gedol hador. (I think Sefardim may actually be able to put stipulations in the ketubah; any Sefardim able to confirm?)

the victim business is if the woman is being severely neglected,ignored completely,or any other type of abuse.changing one’s mind about a you-learn-and-i’ll-go-to-work agreement should be clarified and guided by a rav both sides respect.LIKE MANY THINGS–THERE’S NO COOKIE-CUTTER P’SAK:IT’S A CASE BY CASE P’SAK.

when i referred to achzorius…i meant DESPITE all the learning the fellow was supposedly doing…some nasty behavior and emotional cruelty was going on.such a person’s wife is absolutely a victim–BUT NOT OF THE SYSTEM!kollel life can be very beautiful.

moshe:

Your posts are usually better than that. Usually, you have a chazal whose strict reading favors you. Judaism doesn’t recognize such a “contract” to support in learning for 5 years, as binding on the wife. And your comparison to wanting another husband is not accurate, since the issue there is not the agreement, but the issur.

Also, if you look on the Starbucks thread, you’ll see I invoked you and found a perfect place for one of your signature comments.

Moshe:

What you are supposed to say is: “How can a couple make a contract for only five years? He has to learn forever, and they can’t contract to do an Issur D’Oraysa of working!”

You are getting Liberal in your old age!

tzippi:

Most of us have stopped taking mosherose seriously a long while ago…

MosheRose: When you are in shidduchim, please make very sure that anyone that you may seriously consider marrying knows exactly the views that you espouse. Particularly about what you will and will not allow and that if she isn’t happy that it is of no importance to you. Something tells me that you will be looking for a suitable wife for many years and that until you become a bit more moderate, you will not be completely happy yourself. You also must learn that marriage is a complete partnership and is forever changing because people are forever changing – none of us is the same person that we were 10 years ago.

new2thescene I couldn’t agree more. I am having a much more productive zman now that I am doing college at night. I can’t learn a full day (12-13 hours) and there is too much free time. Therefore I end up being unproductive which leads to feelings of lethargy which makes it hard to learn even the 6-7 hours I can usually do. Not to mention the extra time often leads to watching movies which further diminish me from being able to shteig. Now that I am in college at night I have classes and homework and papers to write and I end up being much more productive and therefore end up learning better.