Solid Frum Working guys

Memo

They exist but there aren’t many of them. Its hard to be shtark in the working world many distractions and it doesn’t leave that much time for Torah. Well I guess that depends also on if you work 9-5 or have a longer work day and have to commute…bottom line, there are some shtark working boys or guys who are willing to go to work after marriage or after a year of Kollel.

Look into Yeshivas like Torah Vodaas, Chaim Berlin, Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Bergers in Lakewood…

There are many many normal FRUM YESHIVISH WORKING boys who have the RIGHT Hashkafos. These people are just as good as learning boys.

This is how the system works:

A guy might very much want to work. He’s told that he won’t get a good, frum girl if he does. He therefore stays in learning. He then decides to say he’ll learn for a bit after he gets married and go on to work. “No,” he’s told. He won’t get a good, frum girl like that either. So he claims that he wants to learn forever.

Take it from the girls side:

A girl wants a working boy but knows that those who say they’re working probably don’t have the hashkafos they do. They therefore decide to say they want the few years learning but soon realize that that approach doesn’t work either. They conclude that they want the forever learners.

Does the boy want to learn forever? No.

Does the girl want a forever learner? No.

But in order to get the boy/girl they each want, they have to play by the system and hopefully land up with what they actually want.

Granted, it would be much easier if people can actually say what they are and want. It’s a messed up system but this is the game to play.

There are many many normal FRUM YESHIVISH WORKING boys who have the RIGHT Hashkafos. These people are just as good as learning boys.

“

IMHO, I believe in many respects they are even better – because they are doing both. They learn every day, and they bring home a parnassah, as well. They are machshiv Torah and machshiv their achrayus to their families at the same time.

I know of two guys like that. Working boys with solid hashkafah and excellent middos who learn everyday…….. They married my daughters.

FACT:

Most Chareidi yungerleit are working and not learning full-time. So this business that almost everyone goes into long time learning is a bunch of hogwash.

I think a boy who get up early to learn and make minyan then work and possibly go to a shiur after work is in many ways “frumer”(in general) than the boys who “sit and learn” all day, for a few years, while their parents support them. Its harder to make and take the time to learn when you work…

Dunno

Your thread is full of exaggerations and extremes. There are very few guys today who say “lifetime learning” and very few girls who want that. Anyone who says lifetime is usually cut out for that. The problem is the 3 year, 5 year guys. Many of them are full of it. Specifically 3 years. If a guy wants to learn 3 years it likely means he wants to learn one year and take it easy for 2.

Girls, as a guy I will tell you, there’s a lot of guys in Yeshivah who don’t belong there.

Do a lot of research. If you want the goods on a guy call his dira mates from Eretz Yisroel, speak to ALL of them especially the ones he was with his last zman in Israel. Also speak to his roomates in BMG don’t be afraid to “grill” them ask direct questions. You may be wondering why I would offer this info, the reason is because I am sickened and fed up with the hypocrisy in our Yeshivos and it ticks me off that bad guys who are still bad have the chutzpah to pass themselves off as learners and date good girls. One of the reasons why there are so many broken engagements and divorces is because people usually the girl doesn’t find out the truth until after the engagement or the marriage. You have to do thorough info on the guys.

My husband believes its a mans job to support the family and to work. He feels that if a charedi yingerman is willing to WORK they deserve a medal! This is because its’ not an adhered to hashkafa, which is sorely overlooked, in exchange for accepting tzedkah unfortunately.

He detests boys who use “learning” as an excuse to be lazy. He always says if the boy is a “real” learner then there will be a line up to FULLY SUPPORT him, instead of at the wifes’ expense.

In yiddishkeit throughout Europe there has always been classes. Why are people afraid/ashamed now to be amongst the working class? DOesn’t fulfilling the mitzvah of earning your bread by the sweat of your brow deserve some respect? In other words, working is commendable. Emunah, and avodas Hashem are important but you do not have to sit in a Yeshiva to be important to Hashem. There were many stories of simple unlearned Jews who kept shabbos with faith.

Why are ppl afraid to be “less than the best”?

THe “low class” i cannot tolerate however has nothing to do with workers or learners categories. Rather its the late night hangouters, the “boys” who have a wife at home with a few babies, but they do not go home as a rule, rather they sit together smeezing until 11 or 12 about where to get the best sale on the next bluetooth in very loud and obnoxious voices in a Grocerystore.

WIY:

I don’t know what extremes I went to. I agree with your post 100%. Guys can be in yeshiva, stay in the coffee room all day, and they’ll be known as a “learner.” Like you said, I don’t think the slackers deserve the good girls who want serious learners.

From what I’ve dealt with,

Forever learning = long term learning (you’re right WIY, not no learning – sorry)

Long term learning = 5 years learning

5 years learning – 2 years learning

2 years learning – work the day after sheva brachos.

I can be totally off and I’m sure some guy will come and say he means it when he says 5 years learning but this is my experience.

WIY:

I would – but nowhere near a 1st date. What would your reaction be if someone asked you?

WiseWoman

I’m happy for you that you found your husband and that you are (seemingly) happy. That being said.

“I can stand all those people that sit and learn all day and then complain they are too tired to take care of their wives and children and have to go to sleep. I also cant stand it when they are learning all day to do this mitzvah and that one and they treat their wives like garbage or even worse!”

I’m not sure why you feel the need to put down others and hurl baseless and meaningless accusations. Does this make you feel better about your husband, about your marriage?

I for one am not looking for a “long term learner”, but I dont go around putting down the Kollel life style either. If its not for you then its not for you.

Also, there are so many amazing working guys… Their middos dedication and THAT should not be taken for granted….

I know guys who learn and work… And people tell them that their not shtarch!!! The truth is they are very shtarch… any one that works and learns should be treated With dignity and respect… NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR profession but rather their unique sacrifice of not being able to learn the entire day….

I am not one to talk… since i am just one person…. But i have respect for everyone The kollel guy and the working guy … Each according to their individual story… i was on a date and the main focus was parnassah… not once was middos spoken about on the date the girl said wow your parnassah after school… WOW you could make alot of money…. I am anit college…yet i did go to college… I would rather just learn all day and night…. But there are sad realities i cant learn and say nothing else matters because when you get married EVERYTHING MATTERS… Responsibilities are present and thats life get a job…

Sorry for my vent i hope it made sense ….

Ner Israel Rabbinical College.

There are tons of good reasons to learn in Kollel — like the effect it has on your home, on your Mitzvah performance, on your personality, on your children — all of which are excellent reasons. But the main reason is, that our goal in this world is to go higher and higher. And there is no better way to go higher than to learn. Nothing even close.

The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.

There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year’s crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn’t; know what to do — if he would eat the crops he’d become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, “You have to eat the crops. You’re right – that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here’s what you do:

“Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they’re normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you’re normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You’ll be insane, but at least you’ll know you’re insane. Everyone else will think they’re normal, so you’ll be much much better off than the rest.”

The nimshal is, there’s nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??

But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.

For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.

The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.

WIY

I never commented on Middos one way or the other. Middos arent mutually exclusive to Kollel or the workplace, they are to the individual, and that is where unfortunately the lines are being blurred.

You cannot hold an institution accountable for the individual and vice versa. If you dont agree with the concept of “Kollel” thats fine, but why make assumptions about everyone IN Kollel because you dont agree with their way of life?

Why do you think the prejudice stands that there arent any “Good Solid Frum Working Boys”? Because those in Kollel, assume (just like you) XY & Z about Working Boys. You dont like it, so why do it to others?

good Jewish father in law already started paying tuition and his kids will be kicked out if he stops.

Now that is daughter is married, he needs to work to support the couple (as he was forced to sign), or his daughter will get divorced.

What is the question?

WIY: There is ZERO basis to assert a Kollel yungerman MUST “sacrifice” if he doesn’t have to.

gavra: Huh? Are you kidding? That is no basis for divorce!! If a F-I-L doesn’t want to continue support, there is nothing forcing him — other than his word of honor, if he promised that. But barring any pre-marital commitments he made, he is under no obligation. He is doing it out of his own free will and the goodness of his heart.

WIY

“I firmly believe the system is abused and lends itself to abuse.”

Then hate the game not the players… thats what I do 😀

“You want to know how a boy will be a mentch? Watch how he treats his mother. Watch how he helps an old lady cross the street. Watch how he takes the shirt off his back to give it to a cold man. THAT IS A MENTCH!”

Are you saying that not one Learning Boy is capable of this?

WiseWoman:

Whoa, you’re sure not sounding to wise. There are PLENTY of learning boys with stellar middos. The ones who are real do help despite their seriousness in learning. I think you’ve come in contact with a select few who don’t portray the others in a good light but these are not the majority of learning guys.

WiseWoman

That can be as a result to a number of factors:

A. You are so closed off to the idea of a learner being a mentsch you refuse to see it even if it hit you square in the face.

B. You live somewhere that has NO learners so you are not exposed to them.

C. You are so focused on making a point, you have resorted to making outrageous and irrational not to mention false, claims against a large group of people.