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To what extent, if any, is it proper to “change” halachic practices to reflect new societal realities?
And on which halachic issues?
And what constitutes a societal change for this purpose? Who makes this determination?
And if it is a secular societal change, rather than one in the Torah community, is that relevant?
Would technologies fit in here? Or are you talking more about family members moving far away from each other, divorces being more common and things like that?
Well, halacha doesn’t change but the application may.
Depends on the Halacha.
For example, one would not make a bracha of “Meshane HaBriyos” on types of people who it is common to see in this era.
Marriage issues (getting married and/or husband/wife issues)
Well, for starters, it should be obvious that we no longer maintain the schedule for education/marriage as advocated in Avos.
And in that case, the mishna isn’t even dealing with relative terms (“al tarbeh…”) but absolutes (age 5, 10, 15, 18…).
I have to think that these changes are due to societal changes.
The Wolf
I once heard someone put it this way:
Halacha / hashakafa is like a box, but one that has flexible walls. There are limits to how much give and take, but you sometimes need to be a bit accomodating to new developments. But the absoulute dimensions of the box is not debatable
Great thread idea! I think technological and scientific advances have made certain halachos subject to re-examination. IN E”Y, I have heard there is a “kosher phone” that technically is not mechallel Shabbos when used (it is used for by doctors, I am told). We have the kosher lamp that can be shaded (which effectively renders it turned off), and kosher alarm clock. The simple Shabbos clock timer, that can turn lights on and off is an example fo something not in use during the times of the early talmudists.
We now have halachos pertinent to in vitro fertilization, genetic testing, organ transplant both from cadavers and live donors. These things were not done centuries ago, because the technology did not yet exist, though our chachomim did discuss many things in the Gemorah, that we now know of scientifically, today.
Halacha (ACTUAL halacha, not chumros upon the chumros), does not change with time. Our need for interpretation of a specific halacha might be necessary, as we learn things that seem contradictory at first. The laws related to Chalav Stam are a good example. We know that in the USA ONLY cows’ milk is stamped USDA Grade A milk. Therefore, it is not halachically necessary to have a chashash that the milk is mixed with unkosher animals’ milk, because such milk is not used and certified in this country. That being said, many still prefer to only use Ch”Y and i respect that (I domn’t want to turn this into a Milk discussion again, it’s been done to death in the past). So if in European Shtetls it was NOT acceptable to drink Ch’St, it might have been because there were no strict controls and mare and pig milk were also drunk by the goyim. The halacha is that the milk has to come from a kosher source and where it cannot be verified, only Ch”Y is permissible. That halacha doesn’t change. But the interpretation of acceptable guidelines in different places, might cause a re-examination of that position elsewhere.
in vitro fertilization
Gemorah Chaggiga 15a, Rishonim & Achronim both deal with the results.
All this is my own thinking, not to be taken as Halacha.
A father marrying off his young daughter. (Was this allowed after the churban? Is it now? When the change? The change implemented by whom?)
Yes, yes, and no change.
It creates problems when parents are divorced, and the father marries her off in spite.
Some people believe today a woman has a right to a ‘get’ upon demand. Any halachic basis for this belief? If so, what is the halachic basis?
No, yes, Beis Din has the right to force it if he acts improperly (which will change with the times). Also Rabbanu Gershom has a Takana that you have to have the wife’s agreement to divorce (IIRC).
“Can a ‘moser’ be killed today?”
No, only the Sanhedrin can put people to death.
No, only the Sanhedrin can put people to death.
I think you meant “only A Sanhedrin…”
(although, to be fair, A Sanhedrin needs to have authority from THE Sanhedrin to conduct capital trials…)
The Wolf
Wolf, your right I should’ve said “a Sanhedrin”.
Helpful, I’m fairly certain that a a person can only be killed now to prevent him from killing somebody else, but not in punishment.
If the moser is active and endagers peoples lives, then he would have a din rodef.
Several examples of halachah that has actually changed during the past 1500 years:
In talmudic times, blind men could not receive aliyot or count for a minyan. Today, they do both.
In talmudic times, a bridegroom was exempt from reciting the shema on his wedding night. That is not the case today.
Women used to be able to read the megillah for a man. The Rema accepted an opinion and almost all Ashkenazic poskim follow him. (Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef does not accept the Rema on this.)
Chazal prohibited the use of flammable material to wipe excrement off ones body. Today, we use toilet paper.
There have also been real changes in how we treat and relate to non-Jews; it is possible to say that the non-Jews of today are not like the non-Jews of talmidic times so this may not be a halachic change but a change in classification.
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However, there aren’t very many examples of actual halachic changes. What does change is custom (minhag), and it can often change quite dramatically. For example, our siddur has many post-Chazal additions including the texts for selichot, tachanun, and parts of pesukei d’zimra, piyutim, Kabalat Shabat, kinot for Tisha B’Av, and the entire Simchat Torah sidur. Furthermore, many Ashkenazic Jews dropped their former Nusach and adopted Nusach Sfard or Nusach Ari.
Another example is the term “rabbi” which had a very different meaning in talmudic times than it does today. Chazal would have never imagined internet semichah programs!
Yet another example is the unprecedented level of formal Jewish education that is now available to Jewish women, even including formal talmud study. Almost every single Modern Orthodox community in the world today now teaches at least some T”S”B”P to women. Rambam would never have imagined that.
The lesson I see from Jewish history is that change that does not contradict halachah can often be accepted, but that change that requires changing halachah is almost never accepted.
edited
One can definitely kill a Mosser and a Rodef if they know the Halachos properly. I.e. they know what a Rodef is and what a Mosser is.
in deference to many of you; halacha does not ever change, the only question is how to or how does the halacha apply; chalav stam- takes a posek to make a psak, not your personal decision as to how to fiersach. a chosson not saying krias shema the night of the chasunah is because of kavana, today we don’t have that depth of kavana so the halacha doesn’t APPLY, it’s not a change in halacha, that’s the halacha!
Well said rt
They dunked a moser in the mikvah in Europe, and shoved another one in the matza oven. But in those days mosrim endangered people’s lives. Today it might be assur. How about shooting a true cult leader who’s ruined many lives? I’m all for it if it’s mutar.
My earlier comment was edited in a way that significantly changed the meaning. I said that “Almost every single Orthodox community in the world today now teaches at least some T”S”B”P to women” and the editor added “Modern” before “Orthodox”. However, I realize that the implication of what I wrote might have been misleading so I will now explain what I meant:
There are almost no communities that don’t teach at least Rashi on Chumash to women, and Rashi on Chumash is T”S”B”P. Technically, even Tzena Urena is T”S”B”P because it includes a lot of midrash. Most Modern Orthodox communities accept women learning talmud but few Charedi communities do; I am unaware of any Modern Orthodox community that doesn’t teach any T”S”B”P to women.
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.
isn’t what is considered improper conduct in a marriage (that gives beis din the right to force him to provide a get) itself defined in halacha?
Not really. “Improper conduct in a marriage” is defined by the society that they are in (for example, as we have discussed, a man in Iran can probably ask to have a burka worn, since that is “Minhag HaMakom”).
For example, the Gemaros in Kesubas that discuss “Hichnis Arba Shefachos” is not dealing with the age of automation.
Gavra,
Women in Iran don’t wear burkas; at most they wear a chador and many wear the headscarf that is common throughout the Muslim world. (My wife also wears headscarves and has had great conversations with Muslim women regarding modesty and haircovering.) Women in Afghanistan often wear burkas but there are no Jewish women in Afghanistan other than NATO soldiers and support personnel.
But in any case we do not necessarily follow the minhag hamakom! Chas v’shalom we adopt the modesty standards of gentiles in New York City!!!
Dr. Hall:
Thank you for the correction.
“But in any case we do not necessarily follow the minhag hamakom! Chas v’shalom we adopt the modesty standards of gentiles in New York City!!!”
IIRC, Da’as Moshe V’Yehudis is a minimum.
Helpful: AHZ 115 discusses the relevent halachos.
Chazal prohibited the use of flammable material to wipe excrement off ones body. Today, we use toilet paper.
That’s really interesting. What was their logic? Can you provide a source?
helpful, what do you mean by talking to your wife too much?????
Al tarbe sicha im haisha, perhaps?
Al tarbe sicha im haisha, perhaps?
In all fairness, ISTM that “al tarbeh…” falls more under the category of “advice” rather than halacha. I’m not aware of any siman in S”A that discussed how much one is allowed to converse with one’s wife, what topics are permitted/forbidden or anything else that is usually defined in a halachic matter.
The Wolf
Wise people usually follow the advice offered by a Mishna, perhaps?
Wise people usually follow the advice offered by a Mishna, perhaps?
Perhaps they do… but that doesn’t make it halacha.
The Wolf
Wise people also realize that today, not talking to your wife unless its 100% tachlis will be detrimental to your marriage.
I wrote in a different topic about Al tarbeh:
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Also I wish people would post on this topic only things they can back up with a rabbi or source,( and please provide it to).Who do we think we are talking like a bunch of Rabbis? Obviously commen sense is ok but all these “facts” that are being thrown around, come on guys we know better than to think were a bunch of Rabbis
Please do not call me “rav” or “rabbi” or anything of the sort. I am not a rav or a rabbi and I feel that granting the title on one who has not earned it demeans and cheapens it.
The Wolf
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Well, I thank you for the kind words, but it really changes nothing. I am still not a rav, rabbi or anything else in that department. Please save the honorific for one who has actually earned it.
The Wolf
Who do we think we are talking like a bunch of Rabbis?
Why? Do you feel that rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to talk about halacha?
The Wolf
Volf gezugt:
Why? Do you feel that rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to talk about halacha?
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If one can bring sources it is fine to.
“Talking about halachah” and “talking halachah” are not the same thingS. we can say what we’ve heard and know to be true but we can not decide things on our own anyone who thinks they can needs some basic Jew lessons, from ANY rabbi (obviously real orthodox not some one who ALSO makes things up on their own with no source)
Helpful,
AHZ refers to even ho’ezer.
Wise people also realize that today, not talking to your wife unless its 100% tachlis will be detrimental to your marriage.
To be fair, I suppose you could make the argument that if not talking to your wife outside of “tachlis” is detrimental to your marriage, then the “extra” talking you do is, in fact, “tachlis.
The Wolf
SJSinNYC – “Wise people also realize that today, not talking to your wife unless its 100% tachlis will be detrimental to your marriage. “
Truly wise people also realize that the Chachomim of the Mishna were far, far wiser than anybody alive today, and if they wrote something down foe all future generations, you better believe it applies to all future generations. Now, obviously this teaching must be applied to today (R’ Twerski, for example, brings down a number of different interpretations in his sefer on Pirkei Avos), but that doesn’t mean we have a right to summarily dismiss a mishna, saying “today it’s different”. Hashem’s Torah still applies today.
Wolf – “Why? Do you feel that rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to talk about halacha?”
No, but the Rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to paskan what the halacha is.
Wolf, this is the first time I agree with you.
“No, but the Rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to paskan what the halacha is. “
I do not agree with this statement 100%. There are many baalebatim who are equally qualified in their Torah knowledge. BUT (and this is a big caveat) those laypeople do not have the halachic AUTHORITY to pasken, even when they do know the halacha. And wasn’t one of our Gedolim (was it the Chofetz Chaim??? I might be wrong about that) a man who never even received smicha? Whoever that talmid chochom was, I doubt any of us would have the nerve to accuse him of being less qualified than a “bona fide” rov.
oomis1105 – You’re right, I should have said “the Rabbis are the only ones who we can be sure are qualified to paskan what the halacha is.”
IIRC think the Chofetz Chaim was given semichah when he was elderly in order that he might more easily get a visa.
In our times, semichah has become a kind of degree that attests to your knowledge of certain areas of halachah and your ability to teach and answer questions about those areas.
Surprisingly, many rebbeim in our Yeshivos do NOT have semicha. They are called rabbi so-and-so, and have the knowledge and limud, but are not musmachim.
SJS,
Check out BT Shabat 82a, at the top of the page. The commentators struggle with this.
mw13, are you married? If so, try that.
If not, pressure your parents to attempt only speaking as much as necessary.
Wolf, our good friend MosheRose would disagree with you 🙂
“Why? Do you feel that rabbis are the only ones who are qualified to talk about halacha?”
YES. Only rabbanon and poskim can talk about halacha. Otherwise its like a stam person talking about brain surgery… he nos nothing and it only makes it more dangerous when they get wrong information.
“Not talking to your wife too much”
Yes. Lots of people like wolf are nichshol in this.
All Jews are permitted to talk about halachah. If one studies a subject in depth, he or she may pasken for themselves. Smichah authorizes one to pasken for others when asked.
The average man should spend time with and talk with (not to, but with) his wife much more than he thinks he should. This is a corollary of the mitzvah of Onah.
mosherose: you seem to have “talked about ????” a great deal since you started commenting and I take it based upon all your past posts that you are no rabbi
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