So you voted for Biden

It well may be that this was the only path of action given the dismal state of political entities, especially in Europe but also here. But so far the gradual escalation that had a declared purpose to prevent further aggression failed. Militarily, the gradual policy is not optimal: a month ago, supplies were flown to Ukraine by air, now they are driven by trucks through Poland and can be easily bombed from the air. Ukrainians probably also need time to position those missiles in the right places. It would have been better to give all supplies in advance and then take them back if they are not needed. It for sure would have been better for the army. Might that have been a better deterrence? Maybe not, but it would not have been worse.

Bored teen,

Gates just said today that he thinks that Biden is handling the situation with Putin and Ukraine very well .

Dr. Hall-

To quote what you wrote earlier on in this thread-

“Under Trump we had the highest unemployment rate since the Great Depression…”

This seems like you’re purposely being vague over here. As a statistician you should be providing more details. Was this before Covid or after Covid (or both)?
Are you only including people who are actively looking for work but can’t find anything or anyone who should be in the workforce but isn’t?

Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Jackk- I didn’t say that you don’t defend, I said you can’t defend without bringing up Trump. If you’d like, I’d happily create a thread detailing all of Biden’s foreign policy fails. I hope you’ll forgive me, Mr. Gates’ opinion doesn’t mean a lot to me.

jackk > Gates just said today that he thinks that Biden is handling the situation with Putin and Ukraine very well .

I found this was a CNN interview. He is not praising Biden in general. He is asked a pointed question and answers tersely “this was done right” and several minutes later talks about things we need to do differently which implies they were done right before. You are just not used to listen to polite people talking. He is not going to go on a rant and tries to find good things to praise wherever he can find them.

Dr Pepper,

“My issue was that not a single one of the Democratic Senators had an issue with him lying under oath and voted against removing him from office.”
The issue was that he was lying under oath about a personal relationship. They did not feel that deserved impeachment.

“By one of them, yes- the same one your party is fighting so hard to force conservatives to recognize, the Torah calls it an abomination. How anyone calling themselves a G-d fearing Yid can stand behind a party like that is beyond me.”
I will answer you like I have answered others before. Neither party is the Torah party and we are not disagreeing on the Torah. The argument is about America. America is a democratic country. (If you want to live where they punish for this kind of relationship, you can move to SA.)We are disagreeing on what a democratic country should/could do about a person in a relationship that the Torah condemns. There is also a commandment against Idol Worship. It is one of the big Three. But America was founded on freedom of religion so you would never expect either party to take a stand to make worshipping of idols illegal. Although I would be fully supportive of it.

“The Torah that I hold so dearly is also very against stealing, yet the policies (and consequences) in place in Democratic run cities seems to encourage stealing and other lawlessness kinds of behavior.”
Sorry, Democrats don’t encourage stealing or lawlessness.
FYI – Americans that vote republican are very good at stealing and lawlessness also. The jails are full of them.

“You also mentioned that Hashem tells you to care for the underprivileged. The majority of Republicans would have no issues helping out in a productive way. The system in place now just continues the cycle of poverty. The poor people- how about instead of just giving them money for an infinite amount of time- how about spending a fraction of the money for a limited amount of time and getting them the training that they need to be on their own feet?”
That is a good idea. Bring up to the next republican candidate that you vote for.

“Yes, there will be times that widows or others with physical or mental handicaps will needs to receive government assistance on a permanent basis but that should be the extreme minority.”
Agreed. But in our capitalistic society, if the government doesn’t take care of them, then nobody will.

You did not answer on how you support a party that does not care for the widows , poor, orphans, immigrants etc ..? All the social programs have been done by the democratic party.

AAQ,

You are correct about the CNN interview.
I also could have originally responded about Robert Gates that what he says in his book is simply one person’s opinion. Even Mordechai Hatzaddik was only “Ratzui L’rov Echav” and not “Lchol Echav”

Huju: There is a regular cadre of “virtual maalachim” lurking here in the YWN who are totally dismissive of a large segment of the Jewish population, including MO, OO, Conservative, reform and even some whose frumkeit index or hashkafah is “questionable” using their metrics. (Indeed, they take issue with referring to them as “Yidden”). I assume that several of them believe they represent toras Moshe M’Sinai in its purest form and it is their obligation to enforce a strict discipline and call out apikorsus wherever it may be suggested. That includes branding ALL those who vote for Democratic candidate or subscribe to a Democratic party perspective on some issues as apikorsim, “rats” and other childish Trump-like name calling. While some are simply trolling there are some who must be truly frustrated that the Mods don’t ban those posters who express views contrary to their hashkafah so they must work assiduously to “flag” such heresy.
Your comment about the incredible work of Chabad with Yidden of all persuasions is indicative of the reality of the world most of us live in that is a bit less Judgemental and considerably more open to bringing yidden back to yiddeshkeit than calling out their failures. As someone who has likely visited as many chabad centers around the world as any CR poster (who does not work directly for 770) I am amazed at the failure of the Litvish velt to recognize their contributions to yiddeshkeit but quick to battle over moishichist issues.

huju:

You said it best yourself: “It reaches out to change their silly views”. Dorah seems to think that since the overwhelming majority of Jews in the U.S. vote Democrat in lockstep, Orthodox Jews should automatically do the same.

We must all reach out to them, they are our brothers and sisters but we don’t have to kowtow to their political views or outlook on Judaism. Chabad certainly doesn’t!

majorly edited

For all your pretend tolerance, you two are the nastiest, most judgmental posters on this site.

Nastiest? We would beg to differ on that call

GH – (The original one) – I’m sorry, your post makes no sense. I hear your constant frustration that people are not accepting of other Jews who are not homogeneous. But to get annoyed that people are not giving respect and tolerance to people who go against Torah (the real one) or who use all their kochos to distort torah and lead others astray is mind blowing. I understand your expectation of achdus and tolerance but are you trying to tell me you actually think that there should be tolerance of people destroy torah? Or are you trying to imply that accusing them of that is just our opinion, or perception and really people can do whatever they want with torah as long as there is a popular concensus?
Are you bothered that people can’t acknowledge the good of chabad because of the bad (which I think you are wrong on, btw), or are you actually trying to say that someone “just being a mashichist” shouldn’t be so annoying to us?

These types of posts written here and there are what remind me of the pitfalls of your version of tolerance. Although, as you know, I have NEVER condoned the levels or styles of INtolerance we see here from a few posters, your preferred path seems to have dangerous pits and valleys, whose greatest danger seems to be that you fail to see or acknowledge their presence.

Syag: With respect, I just don’t see the majority of non-frum people you demonize as “trying to destroy torah” and don’t see any merit in debating you on that basic point. Nor do I see the few crazies in Chabad running around with yellow flags as negating the order of magnitude greater positives of the Chabad shiluchim around the world. Lets just agree we cannot agree.

jackk, Bob Gates is not daas yachid. There are plenty of people not thinking Biden is not a boke (as of now about 60% of US population). I think the reason this phrase is repeated is because of Gates reputation as being moderate and mild. And this was unprompted. And quite a succinct way to summarize 40 years.

jackk-

Would you mind responding to me as well?

jackk, not saying that there is a simple solution to this problem but in most cases Biden’s original declarations do not hold out – Kabul fell when it was not supposed to; limited sanctions showed Putin that he might go in, thinking that this will be it; supporting NordStream2 possibly showed same thing; declaring before the invasion that we will not fight there; now declaring that we will not enforce no-fly zone as UKR is asking. There are multiple possible justifications for some of these policies – staying in sync with Germans, but excuses for failures is not same as successes.

I think the problem is that current foreign political team is inexperienced and full of theories that they learned. And they apply these theories and are often wrong. Some report that Biden selected such a team to be able to do things he was asking for before and was always frustrated that he was laughed at by Ivy Leaguers (not just Gates, Obama and Bush also disregarded his sage advice).

AAQ,

Everyone gets to second guess him and right now Republicans can’t even make up their minds what they want.
Hannity and his followers want Putin killed and America to be more aggressive. Tucker and his followers wonder what Putin has done that is so bad.

Biden is not a prophet and in a war the enemy has a say in what happens. In war it happens all the time. Just ask Putin if he expected his invasion to go this way.

– Biden’s intel was that the Afghan army would be able to hold Kabul. They surprised us by folding in half in record time.

– Limited sanctions – there are many other republicans saying the opposite. That Biden by his antagonizing of Putin through NATO and declarations against him, gave Putin no choice but to go in. The opposite, by supporting Nordstream he gave Putin what he wanted and removed a reason for him to attack Ukraine.

I don’t see a single failure in all the cases you mentioned. They are all foreign policy successes.

Where do you get that his foreign policy team is inexperienced?

And jackk still hasn’t responded to dr. Pepper

Which leads me to speculate that he doesn’t have an answer and is trying to ignore him

jackk > I don’t see a single failure in all the cases you mentioned. They are all foreign policy successes.

they are not successes. You are saying that there are excuses for the failures and that situations were difficult. Blaming “intel” is not good enough. Presidents are supposed to lead, ask questions, seek independent opinions. Trump had several generals and thinkers around him who many times disagreed with each other and him, he used to call people he respected in business. Even Obama consulted Biden after talking to generals – even if he did not follow Biden’s opinion.

Biden is known in the past to reverse his silly opinions (like partitioning Iraq) when confronted with strong arguments and opposition. But now he is not getting it: he is surrounded by the bubble of like-minded people, who are less experienced than him. Media is making it worse – they do not criticize him until it is a total failure.

We learn from this how happy we should be that Hashem punishes us for every little error, while other nations only when fail fully.

jackk-

1) It’s up to the House to decide if what he was accused of is an impeachable offense and whether you like it or not they decided that it is and impeached him. It’s up to the Senate to decide if there is enough evidence to prove that he’s guilty- not to decide if he should have been impeached in the first place. Like I mentioned earlier on about the Supreme Court nominee- she seems to have had many of her rulings overruled by higher courts- she either isn’t familiar with the Constitution or she rules the way she wants the law to be.

2) I’m not sure what you’re getting at over here. Can you just explain how you can stand up for a political party that wants to redefine the word “marriage” to include relationships that the Torah call an abomination?

3) There’s plenty of videos all over the Internet showing people walking in to drug stores and walking out with hundreds of Dollars worth of merchandise right in front eyes of the security guards. There are plenty of stories in the news of people getting arrested (even multiple times in a single day) yet they get let out without even having to post bail. Are you unfamiliar with these videos and stories or do you consider it a consequence that they were inconvenienced by being captured before being immediately released?

4) You seem to be going on a tangent over here to promote the Democrats but stop short of saying what the policies were that created all these jobs. Let’s get back to the main topic.

If so many jobs were created- has the cost of Government handouts gone down?

5) You seem to have gone on another tangent over here to bring in health care. This is a complicated topic which is beyond the scope of this thread. As an actuary who briefly worked in the ACA, I have a much deeper understanding of the internal details than what’s been discussed here. I’ve seen the numbers first hand and can tell you that it had no chance of sustaining itself the way it was designed. (One of the most common comments I recall from my colleagues is “How did anyone think this would work?”)

But back to the main point- you had originally asked who would take care of people who no matter what will never be able to stand up on their own (e.g. people with disabilities). I answered that you know good and well that no matter how right wing a government is they will never abandon them.

6) I’m not sure what you’re getting at over here either- and you seemed to have gone on another tangent by brining up assault weapons. Instead of answering my question about how you can stand up for a party that wants to permit the killing of unborn babies you turn it around to say that Republicans are hypocritical for calling it murder. Can you answer the question without turning it around?

The topic of guns is very complicated. If there was some way to get dangerous weapons out of the hands of criminals and convicted felons then maybe you’d have a complaint against them. As of now- the criminals seem to be getting them illegally from somewhere and innocent civilians need to protect themselves somehow. Imagine how much worse the crime would be if the criminals would know that the innocent people they are attacking are not armed.

Dr. Pepper just one point,
Crimes are waaaaayyyy up where I am from, and yes guns are illegal.
Criminals don’t have to worry about the innocent victims having a gun and they don’t have to worry about going to prison because of bail reform that democrats put into place and don’t want to get rid of.
Wonderful.
Jackk what do you think of that?

jackk, re: no fly zone
2 days ago, David Deptula (who ran no-fly zone over Iraq) was answering questions about that. He does not dismiss it, just says it is a complicated operation, requiring defining the rules and risks of escalation.

He concludes with ambiguity: there could be a “nuanced option” that might permit a limited no-fly z one. “If proposed by the [European Union] or the United Nations, if there was established a humanitarian exclusion zone from conflict in western Ukraine, one might posit that one could establish a no-fly zone there,” he said. “But you’d still want to have a degree of strategic ambiguity over who’s going to enforce that to get around the complication of NATO and Russian forces directly engaging one another…But even that becomes difficult.”

AAQ,
(You know I can’t listen to fox news for even 2 sentences.)
“there are no Hannity and Tucker republicans”
I used them as an example of how people get to second guess everything that Biden does and blame it on his not listening to anybody or having less-experienced advisers.

“On no-fly zone. I don’t have a good answer. “. And you don’t have to give a good answer, because you are not POTUS. POTUS is responsible and he has weighed the 2 sides.

“Note that the west is already behind with every measure – all sanctions now go as punishment for the things that happen rather than deterrent. And as it is inadequate punishment – you bombard a city, we arrest your yacht; you level a city, we will stop buying vodka – it creates an impression that we will never respond in kind. Right now a powerplant is burning with wind towards west. How is that not a threat to Nato that requires a response?”

AAQ, I detect that you are willing to send American Jets and Soldiers to fight against Russia and die in Ukraine.
It is easy for us to say this because we are not ultimately responsible for the lives of Americans. If the public in America on both the right and left would agree to encourage this action , then we can think of it. Right now, I don’t think the American public wants to send American Jets and Soldiers to fight Russia and die in Ukraine.

Dr Pepper,

About the SCOTUS nominee, we can have a separate discussion.
1) Impeachment is much more complicated than you are making it. And since we have had 2 impeachments after Clinton that did not result in removal from office , I am sure you know that.

2) How can I support any party in secular America ? Both of them are not the Torah party run by Rabbanim. America is not defining the Torah’s marriage. The word “marriage” with a marriage certificate is not mentioned in the Torah.

3) I am not sure what you are getting at here. What does videos of people stealing in front of security guards have to do with anything ?
I just want to know where Democrats have made it that there are no consequences for stealing.

4) “If so many jobs were created- has the cost of Government handouts gone down?” Definitely . But I don’t have the numbers.

5) “I’ve seen the numbers first hand and can tell you that it had no chance of sustaining itself the way it was designed.” So it had to be modified but Republicans decided it needs to be repealed without replacing.

“I answered that you know good and well that no matter how right wing a government is they will never abandon them.” I do not trust republicans to do the right thing if they can’t gain from it financially.
The republicans will abandon them. By cutting the budgets from the social programs they have already abandoned them.

6) How do you live in America when the Supreme Court decided that a lady has the permission from the constitution to kill their unborn baby? How come you are only discussing the current nominee for Scotus but not the 9 justices who decided Roe v Wade? Were all 9 of them leftists democrats?
I despise discussing the topic because I don’t want to make light of the serious issue of Retzicha.
I answered your question in general on the first line. We are not arguing about the Torah. We are arguing about America.
If you have decided that you can only vote for the political party that shtims with the Torah, you can stay home on election day. No Torah person believes that it is the Torah’s hashkafa that everyone should be able to easily own assault weapons.

jackk-

1) The Supreme Court nominee should be a different discussion- I just brought up a point here that the nominee seems to rule the way she wants the law to be- not the way the law is. If she wants the law to be changed, there’s a different branch of the Government that deals with that.

Yes, impeachment is much more complicated that’s why I tried to break it down to a simple piece- the senators were supposed to rule on whether he broke the law or not by lying under oath, it was up to the House to decide if it was an impeachable offense or not. The senators were not supposed to vote on if they felt it was an impeachable offence or not. Can you please address that point?

I know about the other two impeachments that were brought since Former President Clinton. What’s your point? The second one had no chance of removing him from office as he had already left office. In my opinion it was brought as political revenge (do you recall Nancy Pelosi giggling while handing out impeachment pens?).

2) You seem to be avoiding the question here. Neither party is Frum or backed by the Torah. Yidden should vote for the party that has values that are closer to the Torah. There’s a party that’s trying to force the country to recognize relationships that the Torah calls an abomination. A Frum Yid should not stand behind that party.

3) You asked me to bring a source that this lawlessness is going on. Videos of people stealing merchandise in front of security guards who can’t do anything is lawlessness. By Democrats not allowing the thieves to be arrested for stealing less than a certain amount and allowing violent offenders to get released that same day without having to post any cash bail- they have removed all (or most) of the consequences. The majority of this is taking place in Democrat run cities.

4) So can you answer this question- are you for taking away benefits from able working people after a certain amount of time (say five years) once they had a chance to get back onto their feet?(Obviously with exceptions for those who fall on hard times again.)

5) No- there’s no modification that would have helped it. It needed to be fully repealed. The US is not in a place where universal healthcare (or any type of health care for everyone run by the Government) can work.

We can disagree here but I don’t think Republicans will ever abandon those that can not take care of themselves. It seems like you do feel that way. We’ll just have to disagree on that point.

6) I live in the U.S. because it is the country where Frum Yidden can live the most comfortably. We have equal rights and when choosing between two parties that do not represent the Torah we can, without fear, vote against the one that is more against the Torahs values.

I brought up the current Supreme Court nominee because she either clearly doesn’t know the constitution too well or decides on cases based on her personal feelings- this was relevant to the first point above. The three nominees from Former President Trump do not always vote Conservative even though that’s they’re view- they vote with the Constitution. Apparently Justice Kagan never had any ruling overturned but that’s just because she was never a judge.

I don’t stay home on election day because I need to vote Republican- not that I agree with them in everything but more importantly to vote against the Democrats.

Dr. Pepper,

1) “Can you please address that point?”
I am not a Constitutional scholar and I cannot point to the actual verse where the role of the senate in impeachment is not to simply judge whether the law was broken.
On the constitution.congress.gov website they say that “Because impeachment is a political process largely unchecked by the judiciary, the role of the Senate in impeachment proceedings is primarily determined by historical practice, rather than judicial interpretation.”
“What’s your point? “
My point is that it has been made abundantly clear by the last 2 impeachments in the Senate that they do not simply rule on whether the law was broken as you say.
I can point to the verse why Trump was impeached after he was out of office – Article I, Section 3—”subject to disqualification from holding future office if convicted”.
2) “Yidden should vote for the party that has values that are closer to the Torah.” As I answered to Amom that is a very important consideration but not the only consideration.
“A Frum Yid should not stand behind that party.”
A Frum Yid should not stand behind either party!
3) I understand that you see a correlation between the democrats ‘ not allowing the thieves to be arrested for stealing less than a certain amount and allowing violent offenders to get released that same day without having to post any cash bail’ and shoplifting . But I will need more evidence of this. Bail was not instituted so that rich people can get out of jail immediately and poor people can’t.
4) Yes.
5) “No- there’s no modification that would have helped it. It needed to be fully repealed. The US is not in a place where universal healthcare (or any type of health care for everyone run by the Government) can work.”
Well, it wasn’t repealed and Obamacare is still helping people get medical coverage.

Regarding your shita that a Frum Yid must vote Republican, I have a question for you. Do you have a Rav or Posek who told you that you can never vote for a Democrat and that you must vote Republican?

Gut Shabbos