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So this place I live, this kid started a daf yomi shiur. So I decided maybe I’ll go to it.
So I reckoned for a while if it was a pchisus for me to go, and it was, but I decided to go anyway.
So I went. And sat down. And then they are setting up, and these two girls come in and sit down. See how dumb I am? It was obvious that girls would come. So I left.
See how interesting this is, though. The guy of course cannot ask them not to come (in this situation). And of course he should do the shiur anyway. And the girls are not malicious–they are just misguided and naive. And of course I cannot attend.
And that’s how it was.
That’s the obvious (and correct) reaction to such a misguided situation. So what’s the chiddush here?
What was wrong with the girls coming to the shiur. Nobody was making them go. They were learn on their own accord. The Prishah matirs this.
Matan1 -“What was wrong with the girls coming to the shiur. Nobody was making them go. They were learn on their own accord. The Prishah matirs this.”
PBA -did the right thing. 1. The Prisha is a Daas Yochid.
2. There probably wasn’t a Mechiza, so it’s Taroovos.
Health: I cannot argue with you if you don’t hold by the Prishah. That is a lengthy Sugya and there are Tzdadim either way. However, a Mechitzah isn’t necessary. R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah about a “Meeting Shel Society” where he says it’s Muttar to give a D’var Torah afterwards even if there are women there and he does not necessitate a Mechitza.
Sam2
Does that mean that Rav Moshe also Mattirs Lechatchila to have just a shiur that will be coed?
WIY: I don’t know. As far as I know he doesn’t have a T’shuvah on that issue. I was just pointing out that a Mechitzah wouldn’t be the deciding factor. I always found his Lashon in this one funny though (I forget where it is, it’s towards the end of either O.C 2, 3, or 4).
No, both were issur.
snort
Sam2 -“WIY: I don’t know. As far as I know he doesn’t have a T’shuvah on that issue. I was just pointing out that a Mechitzah wouldn’t be the deciding factor.”
You most certainly do know, but you pretend. 1. Rav Moshe was talking about a man giving a Shiur to ladies. 2. I even seen Chashuva Rabbis giving a Speech/Shiur to ladies and men at the same time, but they were separated. Don’t you have an imagination? From the description, it sounded like a small Shiur and the girls were real close by. Stop trying to say everything is Mutter. I’m not a Machmir, but this is obviously Ossur.
I do not believe that Reb Moshe would stay at such a shiur either.
OhTeeDee – I seriously think you misunderstand the situation. PBA truly loves his wife and his mother and his daughters. He simply understands that contact with women is not a free thing. If he were your husband, you would not want him freely socializing with women. This is also a matter of what is permitted to teach to women and in what circumstances. There are so many wonderful things that a woman can learn and do and it doesn’t have with men to be on a level that is equal to theirs in their own right. It does not have be taken in the context of misogynistic or childish when a person realizes that temptation can occur without one even realizing it and this is a difficult thing for some people to control.
Nechoma,
Maybe the reason that people are susceptible to improper thoughts is because we hyper sexualize everything. If you say that a skirt much be 4 inches below the knee, then if a man sees a woman in a skirt 3 inches below the knee, he will have improper thoughts. If sitting in the same woman is considered taboo(non yichud situation), then when are in a room with a woman, you will have those thoughts.
We obviously have to take this in the context of halacha, but we must realize that unnecessary chumros might be hurting us more than they are helping us.
OTD, the problem is the mixed atmosphere and unnecessary “drawing close to each other” that this type of gathering brings. It’s really not a matter of anyone’s intellectual level.
Matan1, please cite which chumra or chumros is/are unnecessary, and who imposes it/them.
On the other hand, some feel that it’s better to dress so that the skirt only covers the knees when you are both bending over and tugging on it at the same time. And this is not a worse “hyper-sexualization”?
Besides, by your logic, we might as well adopt the standards of the nations and just throw the whole inyan out the window. Why shouldn’t a woman wear shorts and a sleeveless tank top (if even that) rather than out holy and dignified way of dress? Let’s not “hyper-sexualize” the arms and legs, right?
It so happens that your logic is that of the nations, while the Torah’s logic says exactly the opposite. Chazal says about this particular Yetzer HaRa that masbio ra’ev whereas mar’ivo save’a. So if a tempting circumstance of any sort were to arise, CH”V, you’re better off if you are as clean as possible, not CH”V the other way.
I’m not saying to go crazy with unnecessary chumros. But Chaza”l knew what they were talking about. Let’s not pretend to be smarter than Chazal.
Health: This case is also a man giving a Shiur to ladies. And look at R’ Moshe’s T’suvah on a “Meeting Shel Society”, he says that it’s okay to give the co-ed D’var Torah.
Sam – Are you now saying Rav Moshe was Mattir giving a Shiur when men and ladies were sitting next to each other? I don’t believe he ever did this.
Health: Read the T’shuvah. Unless I am grossly misrecalling this, he doesn’t require a Mechitzah nor does he say that they can’t sit next to each other. (Maybe he is assuming that they already weren’t, but I don’t recall it saying that in the T’shuvah.)
L’halacha, you only need a seperation for davening and mingling. To the others: how do you sit on a bus or at a chupa without a m’chitza?
PBA: Had the girls been behind a mechitza, would you have left?
pba – lol
Mechitzah b’peh would be if you tell the women to leave.
In my neighborhood, two different magidei shiur were offered a well paying position to give a gemara shiur, but it was known that there was a woman who wanted to attend. Both asked their respective rebbeim, who both said the same thing; it might or might not be assur, but either way, don’t do it.
Sam2 -“Unless I am grossly misrecalling this, he doesn’t require a Mechitzah nor does he say that they can’t sit next to each other. (Maybe he is assuming that they already weren’t, but I don’t recall it saying that in the T’shuvah.)”
That’s exactly my point. He is assuming it, because if he held sitting next to or very near each other wasn’t Taaruvous -he’d say so!
In the olden times, well not that long ago, in the Frum world, not the MO world, Yeshiva dinners/ Chasunahs were almost all mixed. But people sat next to their wives, family, etc. Noone sat next to or very near, strange women/girls.
If you sit next to a strange girl/woman during a Torah Shiur, this is a classic case of “Mitzva Haboh B’aveira”!
If they were behind the mechitza and participating by asking questions, I certainly would have left.
What if they would have texted their questions on a Kosher phone? How about a non-Kosher phone?
Just trying to get to the bottom of this 🙂
PBA: I don’t understand. You’re being Mocheh against someone holding like the Drisha?
What if they would have texted their questions on a Kosher phone?
Isn’t that an oxymoron?
I forget where it is, it’s towards the end of either O.C 2, 3, or 4
It’s in Yoreh Deiah 2:109:
??? ???? ????????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ????????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ??????
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See also Orach Chaim 5:12:3 where he writes:
???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????
????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????
No, you’re just more used to hearing the word drisha about that place in the UWS so you think of it as feminine.
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