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Why is it that a women who wears a modest snood on shabbos gets dirty looks and jeers from other Lakewood woman who strut about with their $3,000 custom wigs? Why did my wife even have one woman come up to her and tell her that “this isn’t an israeli kibutz and its not shabosdik to wear a snood”
Aren’t we forgetting why we cover our hair in the first place? to be modest. Isn’t a nice fabric covering FAR more modest than a wig that can’t even be distinguished from the wearers original hair, and in some cases, is even better looking and far less modest.
ModernLakewoodGuy – You are officially upgraded to ReligiousLakewoodGuy. (I can already hear the howls.)
You are absolutely correct. Remain strong. Keep doing the right thing.
Totally agree.
modern lakewood guy:glad you brought up this topic! kol hakavod to your wife!
One of the interesting things about current yeshivishe social custom is that the spirit of the law has been forgotten or ignored. The bottom line is that there are social rules that parade as yiddishkeit but are as far as can be from it. The list of these social rules is endless, and it determines who is in and who is out. And woe to those who are out. These “frum” women are practicing a religion, but it is not Judaism. Much credit to you that you are not practicing this pseudofrumkeit despite the peer pressure.
Why can’t women wear snoods outside the house anymore, especially on Shabbos, in some cities? Beats me, and I know enough people who are pained by this attitude.
I have to wonder who the woman was and why she felt compelled to give such mussar.
Obviously no one should be insulted for wearing a snood or hat instead of a shaitel. This is especially true given that a shaitel is so much more expensive, & I’d guess that many in Lakewood are on tight budgets.
For the record, I’ve never lived in Lakewood. When my husband was training, we couldn’t afford to replace my shaitel when it wore out, so I’ve been wearing snoods or hats for the past several years. I find snoods & hats much more comfortable to wear, so I haven’t gotten around to replacing my shaitel. There are times when I am one of the only women at an event not wearing a shaitel, but no one has ever commented to me about it.
The wigs that are indistinguishable from human hair are the epitome of pritzus.
Modern lakewood guy,
I so agree with you and have learned since I was a child “girls can be mean” As an adult I have realized women are even more mean and obnoxious to other women.
The shaitel issue and price has become out of hand the past few years. Many women in my neighborhhod will spend the $3000 on a human hair shaitel and then ask for tuition breaks or take gov’t funding for food and housing.
A womans hair should be covered.
It didn’t say with what or specify “what can or can not be worn Shabbat to cover your hair.
I have been told may times in my life “I don’t look shabosdik b/c of….” One of the most ridiculous comments made to me was “what’s the matter you don’t own a Shabbos robe?” My answer back was I prefer to get dressed and not look like a hospital patient on Shabbat.
I would tell your wife to just brush the comment off b/c the other woman is just vain or come back with a clever comeback.
Your wife is following the rules 100%-probably even more b/c she is being a true modest woman.
PS- I don’t own a shaitel.
There are some wigs that look even better than the wearer’s real hair.
Some women leave their manners and sensitivities to others’ feelings buried under their three grand wigs.
ModernLakewoodGuy just keep complimenting your wife and making her feel good about herself. Women whose men make them feel beautiful have healthier self esteems and can handle silly criticisms from other women better than those who don’t.
ModernLakewoodGuy, I’m with you on this one. Tell me, do those other women wear robes on Shabbos or do they wear outfits? My shver argues that a robe (the ones that can cost a pretty penny, not the housecoat kind) is not Shabbos-dik. At least he showed me a source in a sefer (I think it was Secrets of Shabbos?). What is the source for these women to say that a snood is less Shabbos-dik than a Sheitel?
Hear, hear.
I think you should change your screen name to SensibleLakewoodGuy.
I 100% agree
I am sephardi and don’t wear s sheital at all… I have come home crying many times from the taunts I get from other ladies. I even had to quit a job over it! (at a bais yaakov school when the woman constantly told me I would be pretty “if only would wear a sheital”)
I think its sickening but it happens a lot. ladies are obsessed with looks more than tznius now days.
You would be right, unless the reason for covering the hair is that only the ACTUAL hair growing on the married woman’s hair (and not a beautiful shaitel) is assur to all males but the woman’s husband. Maybe the reason is NOT modesty per se(and it is not delineated in the Torah shehbichsav at all), but simply that once a woman is married, only her husband is permitted to see her hair in its natural state. Therefore, covering it by ANY means, including a pretty shaitel, is accomplsihing that end. I have seen gorgeous hats, pretty (and rather pricey) snoods, and there are some beautiful wraparound tichelech that are formed into a bun, that make many girls look more attractive than their own natural hair ever was. It’s not the more attractive/less attractive that is important, it is simply a case that the halacha is that married women should cover their hair, because the hair is erva after marriage. By the logic stated that women should not wear attractive shaitlech, maybe they should also not dress in pretty clothing for Shabbos and Yom Tov, or for a simcha, even if the clothing is tzniusdig.
You are hundred percent RIGHT!! Halachacally, it is much betetr to wear a snood or a hat or a scarf ,covering al lthe hair. Thre is not even a question about this. Rav Ovadia josef shelita, I think, even forbids sheitlech in favor of scarves and hats.
But then, you are living in the midst of a pretty materialistic society, in spite of all their protestations. Nothing wrong in that as I, too, live in such surroundings and may even have sampled the materialistic dream. However, it is INEXCUSABLE to be rude to your wife. She is the “Aishes Chayil’,not them! Gut shabbos!
tichels are a maaila over sheitels. Everyone holds they are tznius, unlike shteitels. (Not to impugn sheitels, c’v).
But the sheitels designed to make it impossible to relaize it isn’t her real hair, is a complete violation of tznius.
Whoever told that to your wife must’ve been a zoina.
I think a modest snood (covering all hair) IS more tzniusding than the type of sheitel you describe. So although in these type of communities – it is understood and accepted that a snood is more “casual” and not dressed up as a sheitel… SO WHAT!. Obviously whoever is wearing a snood, is currently in the more “casual, not dressed up” mode. What a HUGE chutzpah for anyone to impose their “mode/mood” of dressing on someone else. Not to mention that there are many pious women (usually from Israel) who prefer NOT to wear anything else BUT a snood for tznius reasons…
(The debate if a snood or sheitel is more tznius – is a whole other thing. I personally believe it is easier not to risk showing any hair with a sheitel than a snood…thus, I prefer wearing a sheitel when out and about.)
why don’t you come to Eretz Yisroel and live a simple, non-showy life, instead of living in Esav-America land (in Gimatria ??? = ???????), where it’s all about showing off chitzoniyus – so stop all this outer nonsense garbage and keep in mind, it’s not just the israeli kibbutz that’s doing it, it’s all over eretz yisroel, and i guess when moshiach comes, will you choose to stay back, since you can’t wear your shaitel on shabbos?
also, in Gimatria: ??? = ????? ???
Leave Lakewood!
Women wearing real-looking sheitels are clearly doing so with ulterior motives. Be wary of them.
I don’t understand this either. I also don’t understand why Lakewood of all places that should be promoting a Kollel lifestyle would allow this to happen. This doens’t mean that they should be wearing rags and shmatas but it means that they could be putting that extra $2,000 towards (and I not sure if 1,000 is outrageous for a sheitel or not) rent, food or tuition (which the Lakewood schools always have such a hard time making ends meet) This also goes for the expensive purses that the in club must have, the $10,000 dollar seforim shanks, dresses and lady clothing that must be designer as well as the designer baby clothing.
Modernlakewoodguy makes an excellent point. Although sheitls have certain advantages- such as staying more securely on the head, easier to cover all hair, looks nice, etc, this is only acceptable when it is a modest sheitl. The poskim all agree that a sheitl that is so well-made that you can’t even tell without doing a double-take is absolutely assur and defeats the purpose of covering hair. It is absolutely preferable to wear a snood or a tichel that covers all the hair than to wear these kinds of sheitls. I myself have been wearing only snoods and tichels since my sheitl wore out because it is so difficult to find a modest sheitl these days. When my daughter got married, she went the same way. I find it ridiculous that sometimes I hear a girl got engaged and I see her walking around 2 months later and cannot be sure whether I should ask her how wedding plans are going or whether I should ask her how she’s enjoying married life. Just as it is wrong and not tzanua to wear tightly fitting clothes even though they cover everything, so too, one must not wear an expensive, hair-like sheitl, even though it covers all the hair. Either get a proper, modest sheitl, or stick with snoods and tichels (making sure of course that the tichel is large enough to cover everything). And as for Shabbosdik? The snood that you wear around the house may not be so nice, but there are nice snoods out there, as well as nice silk tichels which fall under the category of Shabbosdik. Modernlakewoodguy- tell your wife not to lose heart. She should continue in her modest ways, be an example to the children, and inspire others to adopt such wonderful standards of tznius.
In my house we call it a snoop.
It is very sad when people make such insensitive comments to one another. My husband calls it diarhea of the mouth. All I can say is that if you can find it in your heart to forgive this person for this comment it will be a tremendous zechus for you on Yom Hadin.
I wear both shaitels and snoods, but I admire my friends who only wear snoods and no shaitels (even to weddings). They are examples to me what true modesty is, and they look lovely.
modern lakewood guy: you have made a historical post on Ywn coffe room!!
everybody agrees!
your point that snoods are more tzniusdig than shaitels is so emesdig!
Yashar Koach!
halavai: when you say “all the poskim”, can you please name a few, and show where they said it? Was it in a letter? In a sefer? Please let me know.
When I was engaged, my wife took a class which covered why women cover their hair after marriage. After all, almost every rule of tznius applies before marriage as well, why is hair different? She was taught that after marriage, the hair of a woman has a certain power which it gains to attract men. It is kabbalistic in nature, and not easily understood, so I won’t try here, as I don’t fully understand it myself. However, it has nothing to do with how attractive the hair looks – otherwise it would be an issue before marriage also. Therefore, a wig which looks real but covers the hair probably accomplishes what it’s supposed to.
Absolutely agreed, except that I have my doubts this story took place at all, in the manner rendered.
I have lived in multiple neighborhoods in Lakewood over the years, and wear a snood most of the time. I have never experienced an incident resembling the original “story”. I understand the reactions of others’; I would say the same in the event I heard this regarding another community. But since I live here…The reaction of any one of my friends to this story is: Fabrication, perhaps to stir up the pot.
I know some people are looking for excitement, but being Motzei Shem Ra on a community is considered quite a serious aveirah.
Furthermore, in all of the neighborhoods I have lived in, I was not alone. A good many women, particularly those who do not work outside the home anymore, wear snoods while tending the children. Most wear a Sheitel when leaving the neighborhood, but I am far from the only one in snood gear when shopping. Additionally, in my current neighborhood, I do not know of a single woman who wears a shaitel on Shabbos afternoon while minding the children outside. Not one.
So no, I don’t believe your story as told. But it certainly precipitated a nice dialogue on snood/shaitel tznius.
feif un:
before you comment and refer to covering hair and a kabbalistic connection. . . why don’t you read what Rabbi Mayer Schiller writes about the issue: “The Obligation of Married Women to Cover Their Hair,” Schiller, Mayer. JHCS, 30, 1995, 81-108.
You might learn a lot.
I think people think they can make comments like this b/c this world has become so stereotyped. everyone is put into a category and if their not exactly like us then their weird or different. Everyone should stop looking at the others and just look at ourselves and what we have to work on.
Sarah,
The fact that you choose to call the poster a liar rather than accept that someone in holy Lakewood could make that statement leads me to believe that it probably is true.
Well, lesschumras, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Considering that I live here and you don’t, your comment is amusing.
All the best.
saythatagain, I didn’t say that hair covering is a tradition. I said that reasoning as to why women cover their hair isn’t easily understood, and I think it’s brought down in kabbalah somewhere. Obviously, it’s not just based on attraction, or else unmarried women would also have to cover their hair.
This post was going so well untill the halacha debates and doubts.
Sarah- I don’t live in Lakewood but, who is to say some woman did not offend this mans wife. Women can be quite mean at times to other women even if things are said by accident as a slip of the tongue and not meant to be offensive.
I admire that you wear a snood and have not been accidentally insulted.
Think about it..If you were insulted would your husband do a nice thing like this and find out what other women and men thought about the issue?
milchig,
You make good points. Here are my thoughts:
The writer wrote “Why is it that a women who wears a modest snood on shabbos gets dirty looks and jeers from other Lakewood woman who strut about with their $3,000 custom wigs? Why did my wife even have one woman come up to her and tell her that “this isn’t an israeli kibutz and its not shabosdik to wear a snood”.
I would not think twice if the writer would be discussing a one-time incident. There are rude individuals in every community, unfortunately. However, “dirty looks and jeers from other Lakewood women” seems to be discussing multiple individuals. Being a long-time Lakewood resident of multiple and varied neighborhoods and a “snood wearer”, I feel the post is not credible. Most women I know wear snoods on Shabbos afternoon. The post, however plaintive, does not ring true. Anyone is free to disagree of course.
I truly understand your concern regarding a possible insult. In almost every other situation, my perspective would mirror yours. This time, though, I think the concern needs to be redirected to the terrible Motzei Shem Ra on a community, which is a very serious Aveirah. I think you would agree that Elul is no time to be speaking ill (especially fabricating ill) of whole communities. I have seen this done with other communities as well, and it astounds me each time. I may not have the information necessary to counteract claims against other communities, but it is nevertheless startling to see the ease with which individuals speak ill of whole communities in this manner.
A snood is tznius, yes. I am happy I wear one. I suspect, though, that Hashem would rather us wear shaitels than be Motzei Shem Ra or speak Lashon Hara (when the information IS true) in this manner. One can bring even legitimate complaints without the Lashon Hara. Unless, of course, badmouthing a community was the point…
I’ve been watching this thread carefully. As someone who decided many years ago -long before the avoda zara hulabaloo-to stop wearing shaitlach I wanted to see what people would say. I’ve been quite impressed and was planning to stay out of the discussion, but…
Sarah- I just have to tell you, everything this poster said is true and happens on a regular basis in Lakewood. It has gotten better in the last few years, and perhaps it doesn’t happen during the week as much, but on shabbos (especially at a kiddush) and at simchas (chasunas, bar mitzvahs, even brissim) dirty looks are the norm and nasty comments aren’t unusual. I’ve learned to deal with them, sometimes I respond, sometimes I ignore them, but they are definately there. I’m not saying that it’s everyone, but I have found that it is worse in Lakewood than in other places. In Brooklyn people seem to be more used to diversity, they just think I’m not so frum (it always throws them off when I speak yiddish to my baby) and out of town, they barely blink. So yes, unfortunately ModernLakewoodGuy is telling a story that ring true, I wish it wasn’t so…
to lakewoodwife:
you bring much kedusha and nachas ruach to hakadosh baruch hu!
shyrbu kmoscha b’yisrael!!
you are a role model to all.
lakewoodwife,
Thank you for your perspective. I am thankful I’ve never experienced what you have, and feel pained that you have. Perhaps I’ve been fortunate to have nice neighbors and acquaintances throughout the years?
Your pain notwithstanding, the Motzi Shem Ra (or Lashon Hara, as may be the case) is still a serious concern. If I am the only one concerned regarding this terrible Aaveirah, I am even more saddened.
Perhaps YWN posters would do better to start a thread on Sefer Chafetz Chaim before attempting to vent. A friend recently mentioned to me that today’s Yetzer Hara is no longer Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra- these have become taboo because of widespread education. Reading some of these threads, I can see she is very mistaken.
There are some threads that I do not open, as the subject title indicates Lashon Hara/Motzi Shem Ra. This thread appeared neutral; a Halachah/Hashkafah dialogue. It was disappointing to discover otherwise.
It is my hope that fellow Jews will learn to discuss grievances without being Oveir such serious sins. We can all grow in this area, including myself.
All the best.
modernlakewoodguy: Just know you are in good company. Most ppl didn’t think DAvid Hamelech was Jewish. His own brothers didn’t consider him a possblity of being king, but as Hashem told Shmuel, Man see only with his eyes, but Hashem can see the heart of a person.
Sarah,
Isn’t calling the poster a liar motzei shem ra? Why was okay for you to do it? Isn’t he due an apology?
Will Hill says;
‘Women wearing real-looking sheitels are clearly doing so with ulterior motives. Be wary of them.’
Thanks for the laugh and I cant stop,,,,
would you mind being a
little more specific in what you mean by ‘alterior motive’ and ‘be wary of them’? LOL
I
lesschumras,
Are you asking your question L’shem Shomayim? Or is Motzi Shem Ra and Lashon Hara on a community just a Chumrah too?
A blog is an anonymous forum. The dangers inherent in such a forum are enormous. One area is the potential for complete fabrications to either enjoy the excitement or satisfy an agenda.
If someone is being Motzi Shem Ra (or speaking Lashon Hara) on a community, it is our (yours, mine, and others) obligation to either defend the community (in a case of Motzi Shem Ra) or protest the Lashon Hara.
Protesting the veracity of Mr. ModernLakewoodGuy’s rendition of his story is simply that. A public sin by an anonymous blogger needs to be counteracted publicly. Obviously, a blogger using his name will need to be addressed in an alternative format, however arduous.
“But some people know my screen name” is feeble.
If you have difficulty accepting criticism, I understand. That’s human nature. It’s OK to disagree, too. I like Chumras (snood), you don’t :).
For now, I think you should bring future questions on this issue to your LOR. I will do the same. If you do, I hope you print out the exact text of our dialogue, instead of providing your own rendition of our positions as stated in the thread.
All the best.
there are many women who take upon themselves when they get married not to wear a sheitel, they are very much admired and to modernlakewoodguy, it seems your heart is in the right place and wearing a black hat and jacket wherever you go in no way makes you a better person than someone who wears jeans. (just to lighten up the matter a bit I once heard men wear black and white simply because they wont have to deal with mismatched clothing that way) i feel bad for the boy who made the comment to you to have to grow up in a home with such a negative mentality like that
One last comment, and with this I will end,
to Sarah:
My point is l’Shaim Shamaim. and I believe we can all learn a lesson from this posting. Too many people make assertions about MO,chareidim,chassidim etc based upon a limited amount of information or based upon personal experience.
People on this blog ( not Sarah ) are willing to be Dam L’kaf Zchus on accused child molesters; shouldn’t the same be extended to a poster who sounds sincere in his anguish in describing the emotional pain inflicted upon his wife?
This has nothing to do with chumras. It’s about accepting that this person’s experiences might be different than mine and that you’ve been zocheh not to have encountered this.
All the best
lesschumras,
“we can all learn a lesson from this posting. Too many people make assertions about MO,chareidim,chassidim etc based upon a limited amount of information or based upon personal experience”
I agree completely.
“People on this blog ( not Sarah ) are willing to be Dam L’kaf Zchus on accused child molesters; shouldn’t the same be extended to a poster who sounds sincere in his anguish in describing the emotional pain inflicted upon his wife?”
Emotional pain is legitimate. However, I think it needs to be expressed via a vehicle other than sinning. That’s the second lesson from this posting. Emotions, however painful, do not justify doing Aveiros, particularly such a grievous sin as Motzi Shem Ra/Lashon Hara on a community.
“It’s about accepting that this person’s experiences might be different than mine and that you’ve been zocheh not to have encountered this.”
Absolutely. It is my hope that in the future, bloggers who wish to air a grievance or otherwise express emotional pain do so in a manner that avoids further Aveiros, albeit this time by the “insultee” rather than the insulter. I am working on this as well.
I hope these words are taken in the sincere spirit with which they were written.
All the best.
I’ve been to Israel many times, and been to weddings there as well, and if I wore a tichel to a wedding, no one would look twice at me there. A lot of the women there wear tichels, (a lot more compared to Lakewood) to simchos and to shul. If I wore a tichel to a wedding here in Lakewood, I too get dirty looks, or I get the “looking me up and down” scenario.
I have lived in Lakewood for a number of years, and really do love it here, but sometimes the women here can be quite rude and insensitive. Yes, there are many women here who would never speak in such a crude manner towards another, but the amount of women that treat others with such disrespect is overwhelming. (I’ve seen some women talk to elders this way as well)
So one cannot say that this poster is a lier, or how this “never happens here” or “only a small number of women here are that way.” I live here, and see this behavior first hand. Lakewood used to be a wholesome town, but within the past few years, I’ve noticed how materialistic people are becoming.
It isn’t right to bash another poster because in your “opinion” they are speaking loshon harah, they are just letting others know what is going on in their very town. They come here for help, advice, and sympathy, and all you can do is find a “fault.” You aren’t making Lakewood look very good by acting that way. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and don’t attempt to argue that it does. This post should be a lesson for some people, to maybe think before they act. If you have never experienced this, then you are in no position to judge, for you have not felt the embarrassment these people have had to endured.
Yoshi,
I guess you are having a difficult time understanding the message. Please choose a partner for a Shmiras Haloshon seder.
Hatzlacha Rabah
I could not wait until I got my sheitel, I was going to be sooo happy to have much longed for straight perfect looking hair. I have bought 4 sheitels (only 1 very expensive), and I hate them!! I get such bad headaches from them (as I am prone to sinus and migraines too). I hate to put my sheitel on. My children wish I would wear it all the time like “other frum moms/Imas. I wear very pretty snoods. I even have very modest looking ones with fancier trimming, designs, appropriate small sparkles. That I only were on Shabbos and Yontif. In shul, I always were my sheitel, but as soon as I get home, I change to my fancier. I also wear my sheitel at all simchas and appropriate meetings. But, I who longed to wear my beautiful sheitel at one time, can not tolerate the headaches that I get. I have tried it all too, with comes, without, with clips without, large cap size, etc. I always feel that I have to apologize for wearing my snood to others and I always do.
malkylamm,
Try to feel as confident as possible when wearing your snood in public; people tend to pick up on this and see “the whole you” when you are very comfortable with yourself.
I’ve heard others complain about the headaches too, and I feel for you.
Hatzlacha!
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