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Is there anybody who can actually put an argument together stating why anybody would start smoking?
–> Nobody likes the first cigarette. ‘You acquire a taste’ – if you don’t like it then why do you want to acquire a taste?
–> Health: It HAS been proven medically that smoking causes cancer (First owner of MALBORO died of lung cancer, although that is no proof – funny coincidence). Just visit a cancer ward on a free day and see what can happen for yourself.
–> Hygiene: The smell of nicotine (or whatever the revolting smell of a smoker is) is disgusting. It makes your beard/teeth yellow… and is also a disgusting habit!
–> Stress: Nobody feels the need for a cigarette when stressed except for somebody addicted. smoking does not alleviate stress, it causes it for when you don’t have it. Like any drug, it eats away at you while making you feel more and more of a pull towards it.
–> Marriage: Smoking is definitely not good for Shalom Bayis – not for finding a spouse, not for being married while smoking. It is a filthy habit that does not improve the character one bit.
SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD SOMEBODY START SMOKING? ARE THEY SO ATTENTION DEPRIVED THEY NEED TO SMOKE???
cuz its cool.
Smoking is cool. Most bochurim stop at a certain point. If that’s the only bad thing he does then it’s fine. Yea it’s unhealthy, but there are more obese Jews than smokers. It’s a social thing. If your friends in yeshiva, camp, etc smoke then chances are you will. If not then you probably won’t because smoking is a social activity and most people don’t start smoking by themselves. I don’t believe one should smoke, but its possible to control it. Most people don’t enjoy every cigarette they smoke. Once in a while is enjoyable. The taste of rich tobacco on a brown topped cigarette is a good taste. Weed is slowly creeping into our yeshivas and I don’t think many rabbis know how to deal with the situation or realize it before it becomes more prevalent. That is a problem as well. Many people who grow up in sheltered homes where kids aren’t exposed them to many possible outlets can go on to smoking.
Anyone have a light?
It’s not OK to start smoking with the idea you will quit. Tobacco is so addictive that a large percentage of those who start will never stop. Many, many prominent rabbinical authorities have ruled it’s absolutely forbidden. Prominent rabbis in Israel have ruled that a smoker can’t be a kosher witness, or be a shochet, mohel or sofer. If it’s “cool” — then where there is no man, be a man, and run away from these “cool” people.
Marijuana is extremely harmful. Solid evidence links it to increased risk of all kinds of mental illnesses, even schitzophrenia. Any pot smoker will tell you it makes them “paranoid” — irrationally anxious — sometimes. It can even lead to longterm problems with panic attacks. A very dangerous drug, much worse than people think.
Why would they start?
Ignorance, lack of self-control, peer pressure; a whole host of reasons unbecoming of a person with any substance or intelligence.
I am offended by the title of this post that suggests that smoking is muttar, just wondering why. It is NOT. A thread in the CR a few months ago is worth revisting, so I will not repeat the huge list of poskim that have spoken about the clear issur. I will entertain any arguments that anyone wants to advance here, but I accept the psak of nearly all gedolei hador – smoking is assur.
First off i am in no way going to argue that smoking is healthy.
HOWEVER, although smoking may not scientifically reduce stress, mentally it does.
Whenever a smoker is stressed out, they go outside for a smoke and the cig removes them from their surroundings. It gives them a chance to mentally relax and rethink things. Its a distraction from reality which so many of us could benefit from.
Are there other things that can help you relax mentally for a few minutes? yes like breathing deep breaths of fresh air. but that’s boring.
Is it unhealthy? yes. yet there are MANY things unhealthy that we do. Tabacoo use may be on the list of top causes of death in America but it is not number 1. Number one is obesity and all the health aliments that come with it.
HOW could it POSSIBLY be muttar to let people eat red meat and fatty meats that have been PROVEN to cause heart attacks?
Because, we do unhealthy things to help us get by and that’s life.
The Penei Yehoshua says that smoking is healthy.
Who are we to argue with the Gedolei Achronim? The only answer I have seen is “Nishtane HaTeva”, and now it is harmful. Studies are not a Rayah, perhaps it is only harmful to those who have 31 (or 33) teeth, not 32.
(Poe)
Yekke – “SMOKING – why should it be MUTTAR?”
Until they make an Asifa saying it’s Ossur, then it’s Muttar!
And of course, the kids shouldn’t be allowed in school because they think that smoking is Muttar because they see it at home and Ch’vs they can be Muspah others.
And a filter is only good if it filters out all the dangerous stuff, not just some of it, not like the filters they have nowadays.
I have downstairs neighbors who smoke in front of my building and I have to wait until she’s done smoking to bring my son inside. It’s disgusting! We hav to move because of it. The city should have a huge bubble every couple of blocks and that’s where smokers will smoke! They’ll have to breathe in their own pollution which they give to the world
working harder -“Is it unhealthy? yes. yet there are MANY things unhealthy that we do. Tabacoo use may be on the list of top causes of death in America but it is not number 1. Number one is obesity and all the health aliments that come with it.”
This is a falsehood. I’ve posted this before here in the CR:
From the CDC -“Tobacco use is the leading preventable cause of death.”
Smoking is #1.
“HOW could it POSSIBLY be muttar to let people eat red meat and fatty meats that have been PROVEN to cause heart attacks?”
The eating of meat in of itself is Not dangerous, but it’s excessive eating that’s dangerous. Should a person overeat? No, of course not.
And a lot of foods, in excess, is Not good for your health.
I’d even say smoking 20 – 40 cigarettes a Year is Not dangerous.
It’s not muttar. It will kill the smoker, and it can potentially kill others around the smoker.
Leave the obese to their own devices. At least their problem does not pollute the air the rest of us have to breathe.
Yekke2, yekkes are known to be intelligent people. I think you would know that obesity results in diabetes, heart attacks, strokes, etc. Maybe bloomberg is right. Maybe some Jews need that kind of government intervention
why is it cool to kill yourself??????? its not ok- evn if that is the only bad thing he does-
I don’t know about other girls- but most girls i know would not even think about going out with a guy that smokes- it’s like going in knowing that his health will deteriorate… and i’m not even going into lung cancer and the statistics and dieing prematurely…
I don’t no if its assur but now that the dangers are known its probably not straight out mutar-
lakewhut- obesity affects themselves- smoking affects the world around them! they are polluting the air and causing second hand smoke to the people near and dear to them and sometimes second hand smoke can be even more damaging then actually smoking
People smoke, in order to indulge their Yetzer hoRo to violate the Chiyuv of “v’Nishmartem Me’od l’Nafshoseichem” with each & every puff they smoke.
This is a lot of opportunities to be in violation of an Assei dOrraisso.
I once saw an anti-smoking campaign ad which showed a grinning sheikh tossing the cigarettes with one hand and pointing a gun at his own head with the other. The caption:
Use this! It’s faster!
The assumption the OP started with is flawed. EVERYTHING is muttar, unless G-d says otherwise. Therefore, a logical (albeit wrong) way to frame the topic is: Smoking is assur because of xyz, or stupid because of xyz. The assumptions that people leap to, especially regarding highly enjoyable acts that they clearly dislike, shouldn’t be confused with Halachah.
The thread is Deuteronomy Chapter 4, verse 15.
By the way, this verse is being read in my Synagogue, in another 48 days, so you are welcome to stop by, to hear this verse, and to become inspired by its timely message & application.
bygirl doesn’t understand anything about guys. Also, If a girl finds a rich guy or a kolel husband from lakewood of her dreams then she’ll most likely convince him to quit. If a guy is physically attracted to a girl he’ll do many things to marry her
lakewhut – Why would a girl even go out with a smoker?
I know – I wouldn’t – if I was a girl.
Deaths as a result of smoking, or smoking-related diseases? Heart disease, the majority of deaths resulting therefrom having nothing to do with smoking, is still characterized as a “smoking-related disease”.
money, looks, the kollel guy of her dreams, etc.
Why do people where neckties or black hats? It’s called style!
Show me one smoker who actually decided to become a smoker! The decisions usually is about “should I smoke THIS cigarette NOW?”.
Furthermore there’s a widespread illusion that smokers get pleasure from smoking. Most people are unaware that the illusory pleasure is actually the reversal of nicotine’s withdrawal symptoms. Smokers can only experience a non-smoker’s normal state of mind with a certain level of nicotine in his blood.
“The Penei Yehoshua says that smoking is healthy. Who are we to argue with the Gedolei Achronim?”
The Pnei Yehosuah (Shabbos ??:) says
???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ????
1) Rav Shlomo Zalman (????? ????, ???? ????? ?”?, ?’ ?”?) says that we follow the doctors of our times over previous generation’s doctors such as the Rambam.
2) The P’nei Yehoshua only says ????.
3) The Pnei Yehoshua is talking about the sugyah of ???? ??? on ??? ???, where the criteria relevant has to do with the REASON the person is doing it and not the actual RESULT.
This is why the Pnei Yehoshua says ???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ???? which has nothing to do with the actual effect.
4) Did you ever here of ???? ??????? Every single one of today’s Gedolei Haposkim, without fail, assume the veracity of the dangers of smoking if you read in their seforim!
zvei dinim – Well said!
lakwhut- quitting is easier said then done for most people. and please explain what i don’t get about guys? peer pressure is peer pressure- that’s what social smoking is- people expect girl’s not to succumb to peer pressure on various counts- but boys get a free pass because it’s cool? let me ask you a very common question- if all your friends were jumping off a bridge would you?? each person has their own common sense.- would you jump if it was the cool thing to do and the damage will be minimal, but as you get older the damage will become more visible?…… please tell me- what don’t I get? that guys don’t think before they act? because in front of me there is a pretty clear line between the black and white right now- but if you can manage to mention some possible logical and ok reasoning- i would be willing to admit that you might be partially right- but so far you have nothing!
“Although smoking may not scientifically reduce stress, mentally it does; whenever a smoker is stressed out, they go outside for a smoke and the cig removes them from their surroundings.”
If smoking reduces stress mentally, then why do all studies show that smokers report higher stress levels? Why do former smokers report lower levels of stress than when they smoked?
The answer is that nicotine is related to the brain neurotransmitter called acetyl-choline. At first smoking first overdoses the brain’s nicotinic acetyl-choline receptors, manifesting as “head rush.” Subsequently, those receptors are temporarily desensitized causing a low in the smoker’s mood.
If at this point the smoker takes another cigarette, his mood state will return to normal. Ironically, nicotine will be attributed only with removing the negative state it has induced.
Over time a psychological affinity develops for the formerly repulsive sensory stimuli (taste and smell) associated with nicotine administration. This psychological affinity eventually replaces mood control as the primary reinforcer of the addiction.
frumnotyeshivish said “The assumption the OP started with is flawed. EVERYTHING is muttar, unless G-d says otherwise. Therefore, a logical (albeit wrong) way to frame the topic is: Smoking is assur because of xyz, or stupid because of xyz. The assumptions that people leap to, especially regarding highly enjoyable acts that they clearly dislike, shouldn’t be confused with Halachah.”
Anyone vaguely familiar with Halacha is aware of the extreme and unparalleled severity of sakanah and ending life in Jewish law. That’s probably why everyone other than frumnotyeshivish wasn’t bothered by his question.
You don’t understand guy chills, your knowledge is empirical. As your title suggests you are a naive person.
Don’t judge a poster by their screen name…… I might not understand everything but I think I understand enough of the way guys chill- more than most girls- and I’m okay with them chilling etc- but killing yourself is not chilling- period- have any other logic? i’m open to being convinced- but so far you don’t have me…. and as you can see in other threads I will admit it when I am wrong……
frumnotyeshivish said “Heart disease, the majority of deaths resulting therefrom having nothing to do with smoking, is still characterized as a smoking-related disease.”
Most deaths are not because of jumps from off from the roofs. So if you (ChV”Sh) jump, it should not be characterized as a fall related kind of death. Meaning it’s safe to jump off buildings, or at least not so dangerous like everybody makes it, according to what frumnotyeshivish is saying.
I hope he meant to say another thing.
Guy chills or whatever other masculine emotional fantasy, it’s nothing a chacham, (whut?), would be proud of.
“Vayechkam … Afilu Min Hashotim” but in this case I think lakewhut is using empirical knowledge. At least, don’t be proud of it.
I posted something like this earlier, but it seems many above are unaware so I’ll post it again.
The following is what the Poskim hold about smoking:
???? ???? ????”?: “… ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????” (?????? ????? ??’ ?”?).
????? ??? ????? ????? ????”?: “????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ???”? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????????” (???? ??”? ????? ??? ????”?, ??? ????? ??? ????????).
????? ??? ???? ?????? ????”?: “?????? ???? ??? ???” (?????? ?????, ???? ??’ ??”?),
??”? ??? ???: “???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ????????” (?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ?’).
??”? ??? ??????: “?? ???? ???? ??????” (??”? ??’ ?”?, ??”? ?? ??”? ??’ ?”?).
????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????”?: “?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????” (??? ????? – ???? ????? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ????”? “??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?????, ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ?? ?????, ?????? ?????” (???? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ????? ????). “????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????” (?????? ???? ??? ??? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????, ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????”?: “????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????’ ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????, ????? ?????” (??”? ????? ??? [???”?] – ???? ????”? ?????? ????”?, ??’ ??”?. ???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???”? ??????? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??”?).
????? ??? ??? ??????? ????”?: “????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???… ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???”?, ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???” (?????? ??????? ?”? ??’ ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??”? ???????).
????? ??? ?????? ???? ????”?: “… ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????, ????? ????? ????? ???” (?????? ???? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ????? ????? ????”?: “?? ??????? ?? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ????” (???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ?????).
??? ?????? ??? ????”?: “??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????” “… ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????… ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’. ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????” (???”? ?”? ?”? ??’ ?”?). “???? ???? 2004 ?????? ????? (?????? British Medical Journal 04/328:1519) ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????? ???????. ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???????” (???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
????? ??? ??? ????????? ????”?: “?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???”? ?’ ??? ????????? ????”? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”?, ???? ???? ?????? ??? (???”? ?”? ??’ ??) ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?’ ???”?, ????? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? (???? ???”?) ??? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? “??? ????? ???” ??????? ??????, ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??”? ‘??????? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ???, ??”? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????’ ??”?” (??”? ???? ???????? ??”? ??”? ????? ??, ???? ????? ??????, ???”?, ??’ 67 ??”? ???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).
??”? ????? ?????: “?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????” (?”? ??’ ???”?).
????? ??? ??? ???? ????”?: “????”? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????????” (???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ????? ?”?).
????? ??? ???? ??????? ????”?: “????: ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???”??
?????: ?? ???? ????” (???? ?? ??’ ?”?).
yekke2 – They say because of the Asifa against the internet many people not just got filters, but lots stopped their internet subscription.
Can you imagine if they made an Asifa against smoking? -probably lots would just quit cold turkey.
And it would be praised amongst the Goyim in their press, because this is something that they even agree with.
yekke2: My response got blocked, but I will summarize.
If the Chazon Ish knew how to do brain surgery from learning Toirah, Kal V’Choimer the P’nei Yehoshua knew what smoking would do to the lungs from his vast knowledge of Toirah! And still, the P’nei Yehoshua said smoking is healthy. Either “Nishtanu HaTeva” (which I have never seen in an anti-smoking P’sak) , or the studies were not done on Yidden, who react physically differently than Eino Yehudim (as per Chazal).
(Poe’s)
GAW -“If the Chazon Ish knew how to do brain surgery from learning Toirah, Kal V’Choimer the P’nei Yehoshua knew what smoking would do to the lungs from his vast knowledge of Toirah! And still, the P’nei Yehoshua said smoking is healthy. Either “Nishtanu HaTeva” (which I have never seen in an anti-smoking P’sak) , or the studies were not done on Yidden, who react physically differently than Eino Yehudim (as per Chazal).”
Your post is way off!
First of all, you didn’t address “zvei dinim”‘s points:
“1. The Pnei Yehosuah (Shabbos ??:) says
???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ????
The P’nei Yehoshua only says ????.”
Do you know the difference between Nirah and it definitely is?
“2) The Pnei Yehoshua is talking about the sugyah of ???? ??? on ??? ???, where the criteria relevant has to do with the REASON the person is doing it and not the actual RESULT.
This is why the Pnei Yehoshua says ???? ?????? ?????”? ??? ??? ?????? ???? which has nothing to do with the actual effect.”
So this point is that maybe he is talking in the here and now and therefore it’s Oichel Nefesh and can be done on Yom Tov, but he knew that in the long term it was dangerous to do.
Second of all, your deduction that it must be either people changed or Jews aren’t affected by smoking is No proof. Because even without the things Zvei Dinim mentioned, even if you want to believe the Pnei Yehoshua said it’s healthy – you simply can say tobacco in itself is healthy, but nowadays the way they make cigarettes and similar stuff is with many additives. It very well could be this is what makes smoking dangerous!
True. If one would grow his own tobacco the dangers are much less.
The reason why people start smoking is simple. PEER PREASURE.
Peer pressure is a pretty dumb and immature reason to start smoking.
Health:
When you quoted me, you forgot the last line.
If the Gedolim want people to stop smoking for your S’vara that the P’nei Yehoshua was incorrect, then they should have said so. Obviously they do not want to do so, so bochrim can still use him as a heter. No different than some MO using Rav Moshe (also in the Miyut) as a heter for Chalov “Hacompanies”.
(Poe’s)
P.S. (not Poe’s). I know nothing about additives, as I have never smoked.
@takahmamash When are most of these people starting to smoke? Are they mature 30 year olds? Or are they Teenagers who are more likely to be making stupid decisions.
You obviously are not a teen and don’t think like one. If you were to view how a teen thought you would see that they want to hang out with their friends and have something in common with them. Plus these people try to imitate the older bochrim who they see smoking and it gets in their head that its yeshivish to smoke.
GAW -“When you quoted me, you forgot the last line.”
No, I didn’t. I only quote what I’m responding to. Your post is up there for anybody to read.
Btw, what does “Poe’s” mean or stand for? Peace on earth?
“If the Gedolim want people to stop smoking for your S’vara that the P’nei Yehoshua was incorrect, then they should have said so. Obviously they do not want to do so, so bochrim can still use him as a heter.”
You may have not understood my post -so I’ll explain it. Who said the Pnei Yeshoshua held smoking isn’t dangerous? Read Zvei Dinim’s post. He gives a reason that maybe the PY was only talking about the Oichel Nefesh part, not that he was saying it isn’t dangerous in the long run. I also added that maybe in the PY’s time when they smoked it was pure and nowadays it isn’t.
So you have two reasons to say that the PY would never hold nowadays that smoking is healthy.
All the Rabbonim who said it’s Ossur to smoke don’t even have to discuss the PY because there is no premise that he holds Muttar nowadays.
“as I have never smoked.”
Just curious, if you aren’t a smoker -why are you always defending smokers? Are you just the type of person that is an Ipcha Mistavra -a Moshe Kapoieah?
yekke2: Furthermore, the Gedolim of now would have to be Moide that the Gedolim of the earlier generations were being Over Issurim D’Oraysah (Granted B’Shoggeg) by smoking, and those who do so now are no different (and possibly worse) then those who eat pig, or watch unfiltered internet (I love the usage of that term as a Guzma for the “P” word). That is something that the Gedolim as of yet have not been willing to do.
(Not Poe’s)
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