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To makesher,
I don’t think we are necessary losing a lot of kids to “the outside world”. I think, if children aren’t happy they will turn to thrill seeking. The question is “why”. I feel some children aren’t having good experiences in their yeshivas. We all know about recent cases of molestations that are coming to light. With a lot yeshivas in denial, the child or teenager feels this is hypocritical- therefore their acts of rebellion. It used to be that Rosh Hayeshivos were against the psychological field, but that has changed recently. Even so, they aren’t getting the students enough mental help. Including in this is smoking. I am hoping the day will come that Yeshivos and even Yeshivos Gedolos will hire school psychologists and seeking help won’t be taboo anymore. And no, I’m not a mental health professional.
To Health,
You for sure sound like a mental health professional. (not to say that you are one) I’m not saying we’re losing a lot of our kids, but we are giving them reason to think that our world is hypocritical.
Now about yeshivas, yes there are plenty of kids having bad experiences in school/Yeshiva. But its not only from the Yeshiva, its also from the child’s background and surroundings. Granted school plays a major role in this. But we do send our children to school for a very long amount of time, so of course they’ll get into trouble, rebel or turn to thrill seeking. I have also heard about disgusting and hair-raising cases about what goes on in some schools. Trust me I’ve also heard first hand about things that have happened to people that are close to me at the expense of their school. Also, I can’t tell you about all the countless times I myself have been hurt or mistreated by the institutions,schools that I myself have been in.
You ask WHY do kids do the things that they do-to make a point or to show you how much they’re hurting inside. But can we honestly answer that question? Do we remember what it was like being teenagers and What their perception of the world is like? Its very different from that of an adult’s perception of the world.
We’ve just become more aware and accepting of the psychological field. How can the ROSHEI YESHIVA get their students enough mental help if there still is a stigma-however slight it may be, so they have a tough job trying to convince people that they are actually ones that need mental help. You never think its going to happen to you and when it does it probably feels like your world is spinning out of your control. I also hope that one day we’ll there will be school psychologists in these places, and that it won’t be taboo, but until then we have to make best of the situation that we’re in right now and daven that it will turn out good.
heres 2 of things i find funny about smoking.
i’d say in 99% of cases, people start smoking young, and when they start they are condemned by almost everyone they know. but then later in life it becomes ok…i have no idea why.
have you ever noticed how people often drink coffee and smoke at the same time? lol 2 addictive habits at once…great going…
this next part is anything but funny.
many yeshiva bochurim start smoking in high school…dont bother arguing, ive seen it. in high school…in your average yeshivish yeshiva, the english department is seen as a joke. it is seen as something not worth paying attention to. the teachers of secular studies are seen as bums, and not worthy of the respect of the bochurim. many bochurim go and learn during secular studies, (which is a complete abomination, and their learning is worthless during that time) because they see it as bitul zman. AND YET THEY SEE NO PROBLEM IN SMOKING!!! talk about bitul zman!!! wow! the average smoker spends at LEAST an hour a day smoking! if not two! between the shmuzing…the coffee dringing…and whatnot, WHY IS THAT NOT SEEN AS A BITUL ZMAN?!? the answer is because (and this is going a bit off topic here, but equally important…)your average bochur defines bitul zman as whatever he sees as bitul zman. many of them see secular studies as a complete waste of time…and by doing so they think they are greater than many of the gedolei hador who allowed and even advocated secular studies in jewish schools. WHO DO THESE BOCHURIM THINK THEY ARE??? if eminent gedolim could give a psak, that secular studies is so necessary as to take up to 3 hours out of a budding talmid chacham’s day, who does some high school shnook think he is to say otherwise? see my point? if people truly understood bitul zman they wouldnt smoke.
anyway, yes smoking is very addictive, and the withdrawl is very terrible. it is very hard to break a physical addiction. what a person needs is real self control, and more than that…a goal. for example: up to last week i used to watch movies. i no longer do. why? well, one night me and my chavruse were sitting and learning, and we got onto the subject of me watching movies. he was very opposed to me watching movies, and said i should stop. i said (in a joking manner…) “fine…if you stop smoking”. he suddenly got serious, and said “fine”. he set himself a goal. he felt, that me watching movies was so damaging to myself, that he would smoking if it would get ME to stop watching movies…and so far its working.
thats what a person needs to stop smoking. a goal. set yourself a goal, agoal that means something to you, and you will have something to look forward to every time you think about lighting up again 😀
please pardon my rant above…but it is true and needs to be expressed. the state of frum high schools in brooklyn is absolutely disgusting.
To makesher,
I’m in the health field, but not mental health. As far as stigma goes, this is the reason I said school psychologists. Everybody in the yeshiva has to go for an evaluation. Afterwards, people who need therapy and/or meds can receive these without anybody knowing (discreetly). There would be no stigma since everybody would have to go. Also, if the yeshivos would do this, it would greatly diminish the stigma in the community. In our generation, unfortunately we’ve seen some Rosh Yeshivos saying don’t do this and that (eg. going to concerts), but they have to also fix up their own yeshivos not just find problems in the community.
yankdownunder, Thanks! Anything to help!
bombmaniac, Love that story about you and your chavruse! You should share this with everyone, and please keep us informed on how everything is working out. Stay strong, while your spiritual health is healing, you are helping someone save their life.
lol he’s now very annoyed i actually took the deal…the withdrawal is killing him :D:D:D
It may be difficult for him now, but it would be the smoking that could literally “kill him” (c”v) if he didn’t do it now.
You are also saving him money and if he is in the parsha of shidduchim, a non-smoker is usually preferred by girls and their families.
Tizke l’mitzvos!
You are also saving him money
When my uncle quit smoking via Smoke Enders, one of the things he had to do was take the amount of money he would spend on smoking each day and put it in a “piggy” bank. It added up pretty fast.
hes already married:) but yes…smoking is a drain on the health and budget
To Health,
I still think there would be a stigma, because its what mental help represents more than making everyone do it so there won’t be a stigma. Just knowing that you or someone else you know is one of the people that need that help is like a nice punch in the face. Also its pretty hard to keep things so discreet and it also takes a toll on the person to keep that secret from people.
Thank G-d we do have all the facilities and meds to deal with all these issues- mental health and regular health, Its a brachah for the people who need it.
^yeah that. that being said, a big part of the stigma is lack of awareness and education on the matter. most people’s minds, when they hear that someone went to a psychiatrist or psychologist, automatically jump to “NUTSO!!!” that is because they dont know what the functions of such trained professionals are, and they dont know the myriad of reasons that a person may see said professionals. granted you do have your extreme cases out there, bipolar…schizophrenia…whatever, but there are normay everyday reasons a person may see a psychologist or psychiatrist. stress. insomnia. recurring nightmares. there are a whole host of reasons that these professionals exist. if people knew and understood that, the stigma would be lessened.
To makesher,
It wouldn’t be a stigma because everyone in the school has to go for an evaluation. If deemed necessary, that person(s) would be sent outside the yeshiva for therapy and/or drugs. Noone would know who was being sent except for the school shrink and the patient. If the patient wants to tell anyone, that’s his purogative. Noone else has to know and they wouldn’t. People have to stop looking at seeking help as something bad. The people who have major problems never admit it. It takes a strong person to admit he has areas that need improvement.
Wow,”It takes a strong person to admit he has areas that need improvement”. While that is true there are plenty of other people who get help even if its REALLY hard for them to admit that they need improvement. They might not even be the ones pushing themselves to get help it may be someone really close to them pushing them to do it.
And if you want to argue that you can’t force a person to do something they don’t want to do, well there are plenty of people out there doing things they don’t really want to do and they’re just doing it because they’re either pushed or forced into doing said thing.
For sure its easier if the person you’re trying to help improve actually “wants” to improve himself, but just have you have people doing things in their lives that they would rather not be doing, you have people seeking professional help even if they may not “really” want to do so.
What about keeping secrets from people? I sure hate having to do that and it takes a whole lot of energy to keep the secret. So, you’re still saying (in a way) that getting therapy or “improvement help” is something that should be kept under wraps because other people don’t want to hear about it or don’t know how to deal with it etc.
To makesher,
I’ve spoken to many shrinks and one of the main things of therapy is an end goal. So how come people go to shrinks for years and years? The answer is because somehow they were pushed or forced there. So they can’t ever be cured -until they themselves realize that they have problematic behavior(s). So either the shrink keeps trying to enlighten them or he/she gives up.
The reason a person should keep it quiet is because it’s still a stigma in our community and there is a chance someone will speak bad about him. I’m Iy”h waiting for the day when there won’t be anymore L”H or Sinas Chinum and our community won’t stigmitize mentally ill people. So if the yeshivos would start such a program, this would help towards that goal!
“So they can’t ever be cured”- I’d like to think otherwise. I hope one day they will be cured. yes you have to realize for yourself if you have issues, but I still think with the right help and support people can change their lives to the better.
I don’t see what all this mental health stuff has to do with smoking. Are you saying that smokers are mentally unstable? If so I am not sure I agree with you, actually I probably disagree. Because, Yeah smokers have issues and if they didn’t they probably wouldn’t be smoking, I don’t know, But I do know that people that smoke aren’t mentally unstable.
As for the idea to globalize such a program, I’m still not sure how effective it will be or if it would necessarily help towards that goal.(But I hope it helps as much as it can) Q:How does one implement this program into a Yeshiva School setting?
To makesher,
Mentally ill people will not be successful in therapy until they realize they have a problem. That is the first goal of the therapist. Medications work no matter what you tell yourself. Smoking comes under the mental health catergory due to classification as an addiction -not all of them have underlying issues or like you say “mentally unstable”.
The yeshivos can hire school psychologists and evaluate everyone. That would be the first step. This program would evaluate everyone for mental illness -maybe we should include the Rebbeyim. This would not be limited to smoking, but any mental issue should be evaluated.
To Health,
But ppl don’t classify smoking as a mental health issue, even if its considered as an addiction. Why is this type of program being implanted in the school system so important? Lots of young ppl that are smoking aren’t necessarily in school now. So how would that help? Awareness and prevention are helpful but is it really working?
To makesher,
People don’t want to classify it as that because they don’t want to quit. Yeshivos need to hire psychologists and smoking isn’t the only reason.
You can’t force anybody to quit, but you need to have the support available if they want to.
So we’re saying ppl that can’t quit a bad habit are weak.
Yeah schools need psychologists for different reasons.
I totally agree with the fact that you need to have the support available if wanted.
i wouldnt say weak…id say not strong enough. it takes a lot of self control and a strong will to quit smoking, as the symptoms of withdrawal are not just mental but physical. as for whether its a mental health issue…not at all. is eating donuts a mental health issue? is eating latkes on chanukah a mental health issue? is j-walking a mental illness? you get my point…as for support, there definitely should be support available in yeshivos where smoking is an issue. even high schools that dont “officially” allow smoking, but where the hanhallah knows its a problem should have support available for students who want to quit. as for schools having psychologsts on premises…it would only work in a senior beis medrash (3rd year or above…) before then i believe the stigma would prevent students from taking advantage of the services available.
To bombmaniac,
Are you a mental health expert to say it’s not under this catergory? Not eating healthy isn’t the same, but having a eating disorder is a mental problem. Only professionals can distinguish between what is and what isn’t if it’s not too obvious. There is a disorder called binge eating- were you go wild for a period of time eating all sorts of unhealthy things. If you would have read my posts – I said there wouldn’t be a stigma because everybody would be required to be evaluated.
i know about anorexia and bulimia…thats not my point. im saying habits arent a mental health issue! schools should have psychologists for different reasons…and as for stigma, theyd be forced to do an evaluation…but until a person reaches a certain level of maturity and understanding they will still see it as a stigma
To bombman,
You are arguing against the mental health community. I’m not part of them, but they hold addictions are a mental health catergory. Smoking is an addiction, not just a habit!
as it happens the addiction aspect is purely physical. it is a physical need as much as it is a physical need for a person to breath. the only mental aspect of the addiction might be the fixation…but as far as the addiction itself the need for nicotine is a physical need. not a mental need.
To bombman,
As it happens you are wrong!
“Nicotine addiction is classified as nicotine use disorder according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR).” (This is considered the bible on mental illness.)
“Addiction is marked by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite its harmful effects and unwanted consequences. Addiction is defined as physical and psychological (mental and emotional) dependence on the substance. Nicotine is the addictive drug in tobacco. Regular use of tobacco products leads to addiction in many users.”
From the American Cancer Society:
“In 1988, the U.S. Surgeon General concluded the following:
Cigarettes and other forms of tobacco are addicting.
Nicotine is the addicting drug in tobacco.
The ways people become addicted to tobacco are much like those that lead to addiction to other drugs such as heroin and cocaine
About 70% of smokers say they want to quit and about 40% try to quit each year, but only 4% to 7% succeed without help. This is because smokers not only become physically addicted to nicotine; there is a strong emotional (psychological) aspect and they often link smoking with many social activities. All of these factors make smoking a hard habit to break.”
like i said the fixation on smoking may be mental but the nicotine does create a physical addiction. the body itself craves it…the reason people dont stop even though they know its harmful is mental.
So it is physical. Nicotine is put in the smoke to make people dependent on a cigarette. They can’t give it up because physically there is an element that makes people “need” the smoke. The body does crave it and people don’t stop because mentally even though they know its harmful they justify it in their minds to be correct.
exactly. my point was they bringing psychologists into schools would not help the smoking problem
It’s easy to cure the physical addiction. A Doctor, PA or NP justs writes a script and takes care of the physical part. What is hard is the psychological addiction to get rid of. Going to shrinks will help in this area. Like I posted before, there are many reasons you need shrinks in a Yeshiva, not just for smoking.
lol yup plenty of bochurim have weird problems 😀 but i think a general support group would be more helpful than a 1 on 1 to quit smoking
Yup, plenty of kids, bochurim, yungerleit and Rebbeyim have problems. In every group in this world there are mentally ill people. I haven’t found a group without some. But, my idea for therapists in the Yeshiva setting wasn’t for therapy, that- they can get elsewhere. And that would depend on a variety of factors what type of therapy they would receive- either group or individual. My idea was for the psychologists in yeshivas to do evaluations. Find out discreetly who indeed is in need of mental help.
I think a support group with a health program (diet changes including food substitution, herbal, vitamins) supervised by a Physcian to help people rid the body of their Nicotine Addiction would be most healthful and helpful for the Smoker trying to quit.
do you have any idea what would go on in many yeshivas if smoking was banned. they would need to turn non-kosher ideas into bain hasedarim outlets. is it better to have our children hanging out playing pool ,listening to goish music ect. or is it better for them to sit and smoke over some “hock”.
i think that by many yeshiva guys its a matter of the better evil
so what i leave it to the honorary readers to give their opinion on the better evil
aj_briskdude, I don’t understand how “Not” smoking will force boys into acting in secular ways?
Addiction to smoking is obviously a negative habit, and yes an outlet for some as well, but it is a completely different act than going to pool halls or hanging out. I’m sorry, but one thing has nothing to do with the other. If anything, a pool hall, and “hanging out” will instigate smoking more so, than not doing those things period.
aj,
Is it at all possible to engage in “some hock” without smoking over it? Or is there only one way to hock? Just wondering.
aj_briskdude: I’m not buying it. You’re making a false postulation.
aj-briskdude, it’s a sad state of affairs that outlets like music and shop are no longer in for the good boys. I don’t know if it’s still done but a quarter century ago it was the really good guys in a major yeshiva who visited and performed in nursing homes erev Shabbos.
So we’ve got to the point where it’s either or, huh, smoking, or pool…
(I wonder if this is contributing to the shidduch crisis.)
this kinda like the great misconception people have about bochurim. the world (contrary to popular opinion) is NOT split into talmidei chachomim and bums.
granted the pool and goish music is only by some (and yes by those some ,is it beneficial to ban smoking with the possibility of the bad “hanhagos” that may follow?)
but on the overall for each individual its a form of a outlet. now for some that means not using other questionable outlets, “FOR OTHERS ITS PLAIN HEFKAIRUS”, while for others it will give them the necessary outlet needed to be able to sit and learn the sedarim in a better fashion.
personally i went to a yeshiva where only (possibly) 5 students TOTAL smoked in high school…IF that! we had no problems finding outlets…it IS possible for people to interact without a cigarette assisting that interaction. there are ABSOLUTELY no benefits to smoking, and the benefits people claim cigarettes have is greatly outweighed by the negatives.
TZIPPI
yes a quarter of a century many things where different.most definitely for the better but back than they also did questionable ideas. find me a rosh yeshiva that allows his talmidim to go to a major sporting event, well 30 years ago many did many roshi yeshiva themselves have gone as children to these events. they where halachicly questionable back then so yes they where better but still needed there outlets
bombmaniac (goodness im having trouble spelling that one)
the problem isnt as much when boys are in high school it’s later when they start dating and things get stressful that they resort to smoking.
ajbrisker – you are so right. but why are boys going off the deep end when they can’t smoke? why can’t they handle a little turbulence??
‘bombmaniac
and the benefits people claim cigarettes have is greatly outweighed by the negatives”.
TRUS, but to deny that its not an outlet,is simply false. in your yeshiva its maybe different but im in the system right now its something to do. its a social event…
PS IM REFERRING TO BAIS MEDRASH SMOKERS .HIGH SCHOOL SMOKING IS DIFFERENT ON MANY LEVELS
first of all 30 years the world wasnt such a pruste place…second of all its irrelevant when they start they should NEVER start, and third of all why should it even be turbulence? are ther NO OTHER activities that you can think of aside from smoking???
ajbrisker – you are so right. but why are boys going off the deep end when they can’t smoke? why can’t they handle a little turbulence??
your right they should be able deal with that. the reason they get upset is they don’t like being controlled any more that they have to be. they think its cool and grownup they are dying to do it (that is what makes it an outlet ,now im not proposing to allow smoking in yeshiva. but theoretically if it would be allowed it would take away the drama of smoking)
they are also defending questionable actions.
although the idea here is whether there are any benefits in smoking!
they dont like being controlled…i see…but they keep 613 commandments…which arent controlling at all, i see the logic. as for the grown up part, that is just childish. thats like going skydiving just because youre 18 to show you can…thats called being immature. plus there is no reason to justify it. its wrong. and about the benefits, you still havent named one benefit to smoking except the idea of it being an outlet which is ridiculous because there are many more beneficial outlets out there.
bombmaniac
“you still havent named one benefit to smoking except the idea of it being an outlet which is ridiculous because there are many more beneficial outlets out there.”
firstly the very fact that they want to smoke makes it a better outlet than anything else.
(why they want it so much i dont know, but thats the facts)
secondly what is an idea of another outlet that allows them to retain the status of a masmid and yeshivish bachur???
If boys need an outlet, a good game of basketball would be far healthier than smoking. They don’t get enough physical activity as it is, sitting in the Beis Medrash all day. It would not hurt them to get some exercise, which gives a natural “high.”
“they dont like being controlled…i see…but they keep 613 commandments…which arent controlling at all, i see the logic. as for the grown up part, that is just childish.”
TRUE BUT ANY MECHANECH DEALS WITH THE FACTS WHETHER THEY ARE CHILDISH OR NOT
granted…we all know it happens my point is that it shouldnt, and that there is no need to try and justify stupidity. and oomis is right…sports is a very healthy and beneficial outlet
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