Sleeping in the sukkah

GH – I hear you and it’s a fair question but I don’t think it happens that way. People here will discuss a halacha or question the omittence of a halacha as they would anything else. Then someone comes along and starts calling them haters and anti chabad and invokes names and curses.

If people want to speak about a halacha being omitted (such as kashrus , chillul shabbos or tznius) nobody will call them haters. Those who interpret halacha differently can try to explain how their rabbeim paskened that way but the discussion isn’t an attack. Somehow if it’s a chabad related issue it becomes an “attack of the worst kind.”

I have heard you say you have a more modern outlook. I have experienced that (personally) to include a live and let live attitude to enhance peacefulness. Over time I have learned that even with an emotional draw toward that idea, it tends to prevent and discourage aggressively defending Torah when it is being challenged. Not condoning all methods by any means, but allowing laxity in the name of kumbayaness isn’t working in our favor.

Just my two cents

“Now, of course I would generally shy away from direct insults and aggressive arguing, ”

You haven’t convinced me of that.

I find it funny that you keep spewing insults at them for defending Torah and then excuse yourself for having the exact reason they have. As I noted above. Odd, huh?

Melbourne – I’m sure many did; until the last lubavitcher rebbe, no one said that the mitzvah doesn’t apply at all or that only huge tzadikim who can handle the ohr makif bina are obligated to sleep in a sukkah.

This reminds me of an amazing piece in the ohr somayach in hilchos talmud Torah; he says that every mitzvah has a bare minimum that every single jew, regardless of emotional strength (he was very aware of mental health issues, like i said, this piece is amazing) can perform, no matter what circumstances he might be in. In talmud torah, every Jew can say shema in the morning and night, and that is the basic requirement – of course whatever more one can do, he must, and he must always try to strengthen himself to reach new abilities and capacities in learning. Still, I’ve shown this piece to my talmidim over several years and it always hits home – Hashem gave the Torah to every yochid, and knows our struggles and chisronos…he also knows our abilities and gave us a Torah that we all can fulfill.

Melbourne; i thought that when you said that some chabad rabbonim slept in a sukkah, that you meant that it was not abandoned fully like it is now, but was subject to the same rules that everyone else followed, namely that if you were cold you didn’t do it.

How does saying that some chabad rabonim slept in a sukkah connect to the kabalistic reasoning attributed to the miteler rebbe? Also, for the record, no one has produced evidence that the miteler or anyone else at all employed kabalistic reasons to override halachik obligations, nor has anyone provided evidence of a community or even a daas yochid who abstained from sleeping in a sukkah outside of ashkenazim in europe who lived in cold climates. To add to my original case, I don’t think there is a minhag among sefardim to not sleep in a sukkah either, as they did not live in cold places. I will bl”n look into that, as I have a friend who is a baki in sefardi minhagim… I’ll also give a look into the kaf hachaim, which would probably mention it if it were a minhag

‎‎‎letter from igros to someone asking why chabad dosnt sleep in or decorate the sukkah (from chabad.org)
In order to safeguard and inspire a greater feeling of sanctity towards the Succah, sleeping in it is not practiced by us. The basis for this is twofold: FIRST, we have a rule that המצטער פטור מן הסוכה (suffering exempts one from dwelling in the Succah). Secondly, during sleep, a person is not in control of himself, and, furthermore, the very act of dressing and undressing, etc. inevitably creates a commonplace attitude toward the place which serves as a bedroom. Such a depreciation of attitude toward the Succah (by sleeping in it; as explained above) from what his attitude should properly be towards the Mitzvah of G‑d whereby he has sanctified all Jews, would be deeply felt by the Chabad Chassidim by virtue of his Chassidic teachings and upbringings, and would cause him profound spiritual suffering. The combination of these two considerations, therefore, led to the custom not to sleep in the Succah.

However, if a Jew feels absolutely certain that his sleeping in the Succah would not in the slightest affect his attitude toward the sanctity of the Succah, and is consequently free from any mental pain that might be caused thereby, he is duty-bound to sleep in it, in accordance with the fullest meaning of תשבו כעין תדורו, to make his Succah a dwelling place to the utmost. I hope the above will provide an adequate answer to your question, but should you desire further clarification, do not hesitate to write me.

avairhdarah
“that mitzvah was given with full knowledge of the spiritual characteristics of a sukkah”
they were on a much greater spiritiual level soo then as the letter says
“However, if a Jew feels absolutely certain that his sleeping in the Succah would not in the slightest affect his attitude toward the sanctity of the Succah, and is consequently free from any mental pain that might be caused thereby, he is duty-bound to sleep in it, in accordance with the fullest meaning of תשבו כעין תדורו, to make his Succah a dwelling place to the utmost.”

If a sukkah is to be compared to sleeping in the same room as a Sefer Torah (permitted if there is a mechitzah…) “Im keim batalta toras sukkah”, since the sukkah was given with all of its kedusha, specifically to be a holy place where one is tahshvu ken taduru. If it were simply like sleeping in a room where there’s a sefer torah, fhere wouldn’t be a mitzvah to sleep in it (or eat for that matter) to begin with.

And yes, the only sort of discomfort we find are universal; cold, etc. There is a category of istenis, but one cannot claim to be so when it is convenient for him.

“some of the chabad rabaim did sleep in the sukkah”
“I’m sure many did; until the last lubavitcher rebbe, no one said that the mitzvah doesn’t apply at all”

Oy vey, what has the yeshivishe world come to?!
Before you know it, they’ll be claiming that the Rebbes of Chabad learnt Daf Yomi.

Haha melbournian! Are there no chabadniks near you down in Australia or something? at the rate of ignorance and downright stupidity that the yeshivish world is running on, the future of Chabad’s image doesn’t look too bright…..

yechi hamelech:
i wont take any offence from your words,
i actually am a chabadnick and i heard about some of the rabaim sleeping in the sukkah from my grandfather

yechi hamelech:
Reb Itche Demasmid slept in the Sukkah even when raining. [Reshimos Devarim 1 p. 287

i found these sources by a simple search in google

Melbourne – it’s not a surprise that there were chabad rabonim who slept in a sukkah; they were no different than rabbonim of every other chelek of klal yisroel

“”Haha melbournian! Are there no chabadniks near you down in Australia or something? at the rate of ignorance and downright stupidity that the yeshivish world is running on, the future of Chabad’s image doesn’t look too bright…..””

Why are you concerned with the image of chabad? Do you endeavor to make a kidush chabad instead of a kidush Hashem? Or are they one and the same to you?

avirahdarah:
“it’s not a surprise that there were chabad rabonim who slept in a sukkah; they were no different than rabbonim of every other chelek of klal yisroel”
those references were for yechi who didnt beleive me,
i just wonder why you are making such a big deal out of this when
1. we have the tzar mentioned above in the igros letter i copied
2. there are many others who pasken you dont need to sleep in the sukkah such as the ramah

Also,. I’m aware that there are plenty of chabad people who are normal and who practice regular yiddishkeit; I’m only addressing trends, not every individual

Melbourne; it’s the definition of mitztayer that I’m not going to accept – it’s not something we find in halacha in other places. For instance, one can take medication on shabbos if they are in pain – it doesn’t say you can take medication if you are in pain because you’re not in pain. I know the comparison is a bit off; maybe someone else here can think of a better one, but the main issue is that we don’t find the idea of being mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer being an inyan, nor do we find that ruchnius issues like that are applicable in halacha especially regarding a deoraysoh.

Re, the rema – that’s exactly how i answered the statements attributed to the miteler rebbe. He had a normative halachik heter that he and many other rabonim used. That heter is in the rema regarding men who are unable to be there with their wives – the rema rejected the cold heter, but many other poskim accepted it.

However the only people ever to not sleep in a sukkah in eretz yisroel are neo-chabad. It’s not minhag hamakom and it’s a big pirtzas geder, since literally everyone sleeps in a sukkah there; chasidim, litvishe, sefardi…even religious zionists; everyone. Until this idea of being mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer was matir lubavitcher chasidim who live in eretz yisroel to go against an extremely established minhag.

Even if, theoretically, there would be a heter in eretz yisroel (where it’s not cold) it would not license people to be poretz geder. This was one of rav shach’s main issues in his opposition.

Melbourne; tzidkus and the lack thereof do not absolutely qualify or disqualify a given psak – it doesn’t concern me if the last lubavitcher rebbe was a tzadik, or how big of a tzadik he was. It’s true that we only listen to rabbonim who are yirei shomayim, but that’s because if they’re not, they’re not reliable. But reliability has more criteria than tzidkus – if someone shows us that he is not following normal halachik reasoning, we simply will ignore him, no matter what mofsim he may or may not do. The fact that chabad constantly talks about his miracle workings is evidence that there is a need to compensate for the gedolei torah vocally opposing him.

He said something (and other things) which according to normal halachik reasoning are invalid. It was for these reasons that he was opposed; not because of “jealousy” or “hisnagdus”, there were crystal clear reasons given by gedolei yisroel who opposed his innovations, this being one of them. It doesn’t matter that he knew more torah than me; if something is wrong, it’s wrong.

If a rov told me, for instance, that women may be ordained, I would not check into his yichus or examine his hanhagos and how much he knew, and then accept what he says if he’s a tzadik and talmid chochom. We have brains that can see emes. I have a great deal of emunas chachamim; i follow any psak from my rebbeim and constantly sought their advice on personal issues, having confidence that their words were coming straight from the Torah they learned yomam velaylah. Yet if my rebbe told me to step on a bug on shabbos, or eat McDonald’s, ad kan rebbe. At that point i would assume that either he has lost his faculties or has become a rasha.

The lubavitcher rebbe was not accepted in the first place as a universal gadol gador. Yet even if he were, there are limits.

I don’t understand why everything has to boil down to this petty fighting. Everyone should follow the instructions of their halachik authority!
( btw, Someone (chabad or litvishish) who wastes his time commenting in YWN coffee-room is not an halachik authority, even if he “knows better” than everyone else! )

Afellow – that is true in most cases, but in instances where one aide disputes the total legitimacy of the other, that attitude is misplaced. There were full fledged rabbonim in Europe who were maskilim; they had left normative Orthodoxy and even though they were knowledgeable, they were not reliable poskim. This list includes some names that I’d rather not mention, but is known in the deeper circles of the yeshivishe world. Chasidim never acknowledged them to begin with. Other examples of this phenomenon are people like shmuel Dovid lutzato, who kept the mitzvos but was very influenced by haskalah and was therefore shunned by the frum world.

So too with orthodox rabbis who allow female ordination; some established religious zionist morei horaah such as the author of bnei bonim have endorsee it – his rulings are to be disregarded entirely; he us unfit to render halachik rulings.

Many gedolei yisroel felt that chabad had taken such a turn in their own way.

Avira,

1) When I read through this thread and I have found that whenever a comment was made, you responded very soon after. Take my advise, get off your device and learn some torah, you’ve wasted enough time already! Someone who is spends so much time in a YWN Coffee-Room, his posts lose some credibility, because if one really smart and knew his facts, he wouldn’t be spending so much time in a YWN Coffee-Room! SO GO LEARN HASHEMS TORAH! (the above applies to most of the participants in this discussion, Litvish or ChaBaD!)

2) Nobody is gonna change their derech in Avodas Hashem because a YWN Coffee-Room, so the excuse that your (false) lashon harah “facts” stated about a big group of Yidden will change anyone, let me tell you now, it wont. The only person you are convincing that you have a legitimate excuse for your bitul Torah is yourself! SO GO LEARN HASHEMS TORAH! (the above applies to some other participants in this discussion!)

3)To quote you “Lashing out is usually a sign of insecurity; divrei chachamim benschas nishmaim.”
Based your above posts, I take from this that you are very insecure of your “litvish status” and
are too insecure to make any changes in your life so you just lash out at everyone else to try to
make yourself feel good. So figure yourself out, are you ChaBaD or Litvish?

4) The threads goal was for people to know if they should sleep in the succah or not, the one and only answer is, Everyone should follow the instructions of their OWN halachik authority!

Just a note for the future – when the only content of a post is to attack a poster on a personal level, it will usually be deleted. – 29

“Based your above posts, I take from this that you are very insecure of your “litvish status” and are too insecure to make any changes in your life so you just lash out at everyone else ”

Um… hello? Have you checked the definition of “lashing out”? When you and your friends call someone names, tell him he spends too much time online, doesn’t learn enough etc because you don’t like that he brings halachik questions/proofs/issues with something you do that is NOT him who is lashing out. And then twisting your nastiness into “chabad hate” when there was nothing but halachik argument… well that pretty much describes what happens almost EVERY time one of you jumps in. Take a hard, objective look at your communication. Excusing yourself to defend your torah is exactly what you accuse him of.

“I myself became more religious from the old frumteens site.”

well I guess that does explain your similarity to Joseph in his extremism

and also avirahdarah:
where was the rebbe proven wrong that affected chabads yiddishkeit?

I disagree but am not interested in arguing. You did pretty much nail my point tho when reb Moshe in his holiness and wisdom says straight out that something isn’t shared with the klal, but you and Joseph seem to have dubbed yourselves above that- bringing it not just to the klal but to the internet and for no valid tachlis.

AviraDeArah wrote “You’ve also not said clearly that you do not believe in atzmus elokus theology, nor have you even tried the “you have to know what it means” retort – I’d like you to say on the record, a simple yes or no, if you believe that a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body and therefore you can pray at the grave of a rebbe, and it’s not an intermediary, because he is the essence of god wrapped in a body.

Yes or no.”
I have noted that Yechi Hamalech has not responded.

If AviraDeArah’s assertions are correct, which I hope they are not, then this ideoligy is a second Christian religion in the making. Unfortunately Yechi Hamalech has not responded in the negative. This is very concerning and eye opening to me.