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I am in a “jewish college” that has many non frum and non jewish people there too. I am currently taking a class on African American History and the professor keeps on “putting down religion”( not only jewish but muslim and anyone who believes in the old or new testament) for the reason that just because the bible/ old testament says something it doesn’t mean its correct! The example he aaalllways uses is Slavery from the bible. He doesn’t stop saying how incorrect it is to do things just for the sake of religion…If this was a class with no jewish kids in it, I would just space out for those minutes and not pay attention to it BUT I am the only frum one in the class and there are about 5 other jewish not frum kids that are certainly getting influenced and seem to be agreeing with what he says!!!!! It bothers me that they take what the professor says at face value but Before I question the professor about where in the Torah it shows slavery in a positive way, I just want to make sure I know of all the sources and places it talks about slavery??????? Thanks!!!!!!!!
Meh. Just say the words “Divine Command Theory” and ask him why he is sure that his morals, in the year 2013, are the pinnacle of human morality. Who says he is any more correct than all of the generations that preceded him?
Arguably its a mistranslation since most “slavery” in Taanach refered to long term labor contracts, lacking many critical aspects of what in English is referred to as slavery (owners weren’t allowed to kill slaves, prohibition of sex with slaves, etc.).
American style “slavery” has no word in Hebrew since the concept is unknown. In truth, the barbarity of American slavery has few equivalents to anything in our experience (the holocaust came close, but that’s it), which probably explains why there is no word for it in Hebrew.
Roman slavery was a little bit closer to American slavery, but still was radically different (freed slaves had rights, and their children were full fledged citizens, and by the end of the Imperial period, Roman slaves could go to court if they were mistreated). In truth, American slavery was probably among the most savage in human history, and not surprisingly, it was abolished after a short time (it began in the 17th century, and lasted only until the middle of the 19th, and was always abolished by most of the USA by the early 19th).
strawberry-
Your professor is terribly misguided, and hardly a student of American History. Abraham Lincoln, an ardent reader of the bible an adherer of religious scruples, felt guided by none other than the bible for the civil war.
I urge you to read this article on the subject, by Britain’s outgoing chief rabbi:
http://www.ou.org/torah/article/the_slow_end_of_slavery
If you find that it may help some classmates in their faith, you can anonymously post this essay on the bulletin board, or in your classroom.
If I were in your position I would ask my professor the following hypothetical:
Say you are a very poor peasant, your standard of living is awful and your life expectancy is mid-thirties. On the other hand you can self yourself to the local lord and have a much higher standard of living and have a much greater life-expectancy.
Would he choose to sell himself or remain a free peasant? Even if he would choose to remain free, would he not understand why someone else would choose to sell himself? Is his moral problem with slavery a problem with the American institution or with the idea that people can own other people? If the peasant wants to sell himself because it benefits him to be a slave, could it possibly be immoral for the lord to purchase him (and treat him well)?
Agav, I suspect that much of the slavery in the Torah that he is familiar with will be eved ivri (which, in American law, would be indentured servitude, not slavery). You could then point out the great social advantages of the institution of eved ivri.
This caught my eye and I can relate as I went to Hofstra before YU and there are many bad courses there as well.
I WOULD NOT try to argue with him or convince him of anything. You will not convince him of anything and it will only make you look bad. It’s like trying to argue with a mod here, if they disagree with too much you they will simply block you from typing and allow the people they agree with to continue typing. Because he controls the class, it would be foolish of you to play by his rules. If the fight is rigged, why give in to that? Furthermore, it very well may be assur to try to convince the class under such circumstances.
More importantly, think about you. It might be assur to remain in the class and continue to hear the words of an apikores. You should try to take more objective courses like math and science. I know it might be inconvenient, but is it worth your neshama or being over a lav for?
We have nothing to be embarrassed about the Torah’s Laws on Eved Knani. We ought to be proud of those Torah laws. Even if modern society doesn’t appreciate them. We don’t change our morals to fit contemporary societal feelings. Our morals are eternal and defined by our Holy Torah.
“long term labor contracts, lacking many critical aspects of what in English is referred to as slavery (owners weren’t allowed to kill slaves, prohibition of sex with slaves, etc.).”
That isn’t completely true, as the length of service of an Eved Canaani was indefinite, and sex was at times permitted with them. But if they were freed they became full fledged Jews without kabalat hamitzvot, and they had to be educated in mitzvot and could not be abused. The comparison to the status of Africans in the US could not be more dramatic, as education was prohibited and abuse was routine .
Unfortunately, two of the leading orthodox rabbis in the US at the time of the Civil War did not understand this: Rabbi Bernard Illowy and Rabbi Morris Raphall. Fortunately there was one orthodox rabbi in the US who did: Rabbi Sabato Morais.
When William Seward, Lincoln’s Secretary of State, visited Eretz Yisrael after the war, the rabbis in Jerusalem made a blessing thanking HaShem for making the North victorious in the war, ending the anti-Biblical slavery. There is an article on the Aish HaTorah web site describing this.
May we eradicated the remaining slavery in the world and may it never return.
One might say, if you work under the commands of someone who is not your father (or older brother) you are a slave.
I think we need to differentiate the possibility of slaver from the propriety of slavery. One is legally allowed to strike their son, its a Mishna, but very often it is an iffy proposition at best. Not everything that exists ought to be used.
Slavery exists. That is, the Torah recognizes one person owning another. Ought it be is another question entirely. The Torah recognizes a Jew being kidnapped and owned by non-Jews (v’yeshbt mimenu shevi, says the Torah). Does it recommend that or consider it particularly moral?
I think this distinction makes all the difference.
slavery is TOLERATED by the Torah. no one would say you have to have slaves, and adderabah, if a slave flees you cannot go and capture him. compared to the american fugitive act in the 1850s this is very, very moral.
slavery is TOLERATED by the Torah. no one would say you have to have slaves, and adderabah, if a slave flees you cannot go and capture him.
On the other hand, once you own them, you are not allowed to free them.
Also, your rule about recapture is highly oversimplified to the point of not being true.
Regarding runaways, it’s actually quite pashut. See Devarim 23:16.
Regarding runaways, it’s actually quite pashut. See Devarim 23:16.
It isn’t. I’ll explain later when it isn’t tisha b’av and I’m allowed to learn.
charliehall: A lot depends on where they were living. One rov in New Orleans (R’ Illowy? The name sounds familiar) gave a whole drasha about this- but then again, he lived in New Orleans.
R’ Morais lived in Philadelphia.
Your location can influence the way you think, especially during a time of war.
Were there any rabbanim who lived in the South who protested slavery? Probably not, but it’s difficult to expect them to have said anything in an environment like the antebellum South, which obviously PERPETRATED this kind of treatment and weren’t kind to those who protested it.
You need to differentiate between an Eved Ivri and an Even Cannani. They are two very different things and have little to do with each other.
The American English word “slave” refers to a person whom the owner can legally kill, rape, torture or mutilate, was kidnapped into slavery (no other way) and if freed, never has meaningful rights, and whose status as such is a totally a function of skin color. The is no word in Hebrew for slavery. Those who believe there is are showing their ignorance of the Hebrew language. Unfortunately, many frei Jews (and almost all Christians) have no knowledge of Taanach other than from dubious translations.
SLAVERY as defined in English is totally prohibited in Tanach and under Jewish law would be considered a crime.
A better translation of the Hebrew word ??? is servant.
Regarding runaways, it’s actually quite pashut. See Devarim 23:16.
The gemara in gittin records a machlokes what this refers to.
The passuk says ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????
Do not return a slave to his master, who has escaped to you from his master.
??? ??? ???? ????? says this applies where a slave escapes from outside eretz yisroel to eretz yisroel. The braisa says that the slave can force the master to free him, and agree to pay the master his value. Rambam brings this in Avadim 8:10.
??? says that this applies to a person who purchases a slave and stipulates that it is on condition that he will immediately free him. He is therefore required to free him.
Rabbi Morris Raphall went to Congress to defend slavery in an address on the House floor, IIRC. He was rabbi of Bnai Jeshurun on the UWS back when it was a traditional congregation, as opposed to the Reform-Conservative hybrid it is nowadays.
Rabbi Sabato Morais embodied the Sephardic tradition of Religious Humanism to the fullest extent. Thinkers such as R’ Morais, H’ David Nieto, R’ Moses Angel, Sra. Grace Aguilar, R’ Yisrael Moshe Hazzan, R’ Yaakov Moshe Toledano, H’ Benzion Uziel, R’ Eliyahu Benamozegh, H’ Moshe Halfon haKohen, etc. represent the best of the Neo-Classical Sephardic tradition, and these rabbis engaged the world and critical thought in a way that would make many Orthodox Jews very uncomfortable nowadays (and they lived years ago).
Rabbi Morris Raphall went to Congress to defend slavery in an address on the House floor, IIRC. He was rabbi of Bnai Jeshurun on the UWS back when it was a traditional congregation, as opposed to the Reform-Conservative hybrid it is nowadays.
Rabbi Sabato Morais embodied the Sephardic tradition of Religious Humanism to the fullest extent. Thinkers such as R’ Morais, H’ David Nieto, R’ Moses Angel, Sra. Grace Aguilar, R’ Yisrael Moshe Hazzan, R’ Yaakov Moshe Toledano, H’ Benzion Uziel, R’ Eliyahu Benamozegh, H’ Moshe Halfon haKohen, etc. represent the best of the Neo-Classical Sephardic tradition, and these rabbis engaged the world and critical thought in a way that would make many Orthodox Jews very uncomfortable nowadays (and they lived years ago).
I can say that well into the 1700s, Sephardic women of prominence in Ottoman Turkey owned slaves. The rabbinic response to that is something I’ve yet to look into.
Lebidik, the Torah does not recognize captured Jews as rightful property of the captors. It does recognize the Jew selling himself to the non-Jew.
HaLeiVi and Lebidik: Note that in America, all slaves were free persons who kidnapped. None were criminals, persons sold for debt, persons who sold themselves as slaves, or persons sold by their families. All were seized. A major aspect of the crisis that precipitated the civil war was that courts were starting to argue that American slaves had not been lawfully enslaved and therefore could not be held as slaves.
the Hebrew/biblical term slave is actually an indentured servant with rights not a slave in the western understanding of the word
the Hebrew slave had more rights than a hired person the Eved Knaani had rights as well but less than the Ivri
Also note that the rabbanim who defended American slavery did not own slaves and often had minimal contact with those who do, and were thus unaware of how American slavery was significantly unlike Jewish, or even Roman, slavery.
“On the other hand, once you own them, you are not allowed to free them.”
Unless they have done something special for you or you need them for a minyan.
lebidik yankel: Where does the Torah ever indicate that owning an eved canaani is anything less than ideal or moral?
I will not say who or where, but there was a major Gadol in the 1860s who, in response to a Shaila about fighting in the Union army in the Civil War, said it was Assur because “Vihi K’na’an Eved Lamo” and that you couldn’t free the American slaves. I’m not saying anyone agreed with him; I just want to point out that it’s not Pashut that an Eved K’na’ani doesn’t match up well with American slavery.
Akuperma, I agree with everything you wrote here. I’ve been saying the same thing for a while. Furthermore, for a realistic view of how a slave was treated look in the Gemara and Medrashim. The Gemara says that not necessarily would a slave desire to be freed, since his life is more care-free as is. If we look at the relationship between master and servant we see a level of respect and trust.
While there was a Klala of Yehi Kennaan Eved Lammo, that is not a liscense to kidnap anyone. It is merely a Klala that he will be kidnapped. Ve’inu Osam wasn’t a Hetter for the Mitzriim to torture us and being a son of a Yefas To’ar is not a Hetter to become a Ben Sorer Umoreh.
trofin: The Torah is mum on the subject (with the exception of Canaan) and it might depend on the ability of the slave and the disposition of the owner. IDK.
My point was that the Torah is discussing ownership legalities, not making recommendations.
HaLeiVi: Come on. That’s not what the Gemara in Gittin says. The Gemara is only attempting to figure out what he wants most so that we can know the technical details of “Zachin L’adam Shelo B’fanav”. Also, you misrepresent it when you say “care-free”. The Gemara means that an Eved K’na’ani of a Yisrael would rather not be freed so that he doesn’t get the Ol Mitzvos (specifically that he’d be Assur to live with a Shifcha). It tells us nothing of the rights or desired of an Eved K’na’ani of a Goy. All we know is that a Goy can’t kill his Eved. Nothing more.
So there’s a chance that he would rather remain an Eved than become a full-fledged Yisroel, yet I’m misrepresenting the Gemara when I say that “The Gemara says that not necessarily would a slave desire to be freed”?
I am also referring to the many anecdotes that include slaves. Shmuel compensated his maid, Rebbe’s maid was highly esteemed, Rebbe Shimon ben Gamliel’s would ask him intricate Shaalos worthy of a Yarea Shamayim. There are others that don’t come to mind right now.
I don’t know the desires of an Eved Kenaani of a Goy, nor does it make a difference. The Torah was not given to them.
HaLeiVi: Tevi isn’t a Ra’aya for anything. He was one-of-a-kind. And are we sure that Amsa D’beis Rebbe was an Eved K’na’ani?
That aside, though, extraordinary people aren’t proof for how the average person treated and was expected to treat his Avadim.
Sam2,
May I ask for the name of the gadol who said this? I would love to see the t’shuva .
True. I left out Tevi for that reason. I am talking about where his maid asked him Shaalos about what to do with Taharos since she had a Safek Tuma at one point between Bedikos.
Sam2,
I can’t believe a Gadol really would have said that. Africans are not Canaan, they are Cush. It was Canaan that was cursed, that his offspring would be slaves to his brothers (i.e. Cush, Mitzrayim and Phut) and to his Uncles (i.e. Shem and Yaphes).
I think some here need to read Some of the new Seforim by Rav Avigdor Miller and his opinions on the topic
There is a new series out about his Thursday night Chat session where its discussed
Ben: I won’t post it here (in case it’s not actually on the internet already) but I’m sure you could come up with it by searching online or a search of the phrase Vihi K’na’an Eved Lamo in the Seforim from that time.
Zahavasdad,
What does R’Miller say?
matan1
Read his book
Cool!
Um, if he said his grandfather is jewish, how would that make him jewish if his grandmother isn’t?
Parents mean both.
I didn’t notice it said parents… I only noticed the word grandfather.
Didn’t we learn one of the avoraos for the churban was that the Jews did not keep Yovel? Instead of freeing the servants (jewish slaves) they set them free and right away they enslaved them again. Isn’t this slavery? While the Torah explicitily prohibits this type of slavery, the Jewish people did not fully follow the Torah.
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