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A listing for sponsorship of a private Siyum Hashas was posted last week on eBay, picked up by two Frum news sites and got mostly negative reaction from commenters who overall felt that eBay was not the proper place to auction off hachzokas HaTorah, that it was an inappropriate way of making money off Torah study and questioned where the proceeds were going and how much money the middle man was going to make.
Today, the auction seller updated his listing explaining that he listed the auction on behalf of his son, giving more personal background to the story and asking for help in his search for someone who would be genuinely interested in what he believes is a unique opportunity for the right person.
Is it ever appropriate to look for Torah sponsors on eBay?
Do you feel that in this case the father is justified?
Were the commenters too quick to rush to judgment? Should they have been dan lekaf zechus?
I may not have provided enough details in my description here but it’s hard to summarize everything in a relatively short post and the full story is described in detail in today’s update in the item description which can be found by searching eBay for “Siyum Hashas”
Probably would have been better to use gofundme.
Both
Gofundme -Easier to clarify intent to the public and advertise I would think.
I wonder why eBay was chosen as the platform. Then again he may have used multiple sites and only this one had controversy. Or maybe he already had an eBay account and figured it was worthwhile opportunity or risk for a good cause. Or eBay would be more private and give him more control over who sponsors and for how much.
I presume that he had a great need and was limited in local outlets or options.
It may embarrass him to have so many people attack his motives and actions. I’m guessing it hurts to be publicly shamed. Either way that part at least is against halacha.
Unless one wants to argue that he is descecrating the Torah and this needs to be publicly shunned, maybe if anything they could have rewarded his creativity.
It doesn’t sound like there is any scam here. Maybe it is against halacha because we’re not supposed to profit from Torah. And eBay is a commerce site. EBay sellers are small business owners.
If there was something much bigger to report at the time, would the news sites still publish this story?
You get 100 eBay bucks if you buy it.
Probably would have been better to use gofundme.
He’s looking for a single sponsor to share the celebration, not a group of sponsors.
How gullible can some people be?
The last time I checked there were still no bidders. The way I read the story, his son will complete shas in a year, not that he is already close to finishing. I personally feel that the father would have had a better chance to offer a Yissachar-Zevulun arrangement then the chance to join in the siyum (transportation costs to be paid by the bidder). I am not sure if this is any worse then a few years ago when they offered the zechus of bidding on Maftir Yona for the Rebbe (I don’t remember which Rebbe).
Isn’t this a violation of ebay’s policy not to list intangible items? Someone tried selling heaven once and the listing was removed for that reason.
I know someone who procured a Kosher Sepher Torah on ebay, so I cannot fathom what this whole issue is all about.
It says the highest bidder is l***d. I wonder if it’s lilmod ulelamaid.
Yeah, well, I got nervous because Joseph keeps posting that the only way for a girl to get to Olam Haba is by supporting her husband and sons’ learning. So I got scared that I wouldn’t have a cheilik in Olam Haba.
Now I have to figure out where I’m getting the money from. Any offers?
BenBagBag, you aren’t by any chance the father, are you?
That’s not really a denial, you know.
If you’re not, I don’t know why you can’t just come out and say, “I’m not the father”.
if he is, in fact, trying to remain anonymous, what benefit is there in making him admit he’s the dad?
You are allowed to sell “Experiences” on eBay meaning something like batting practice at yankee stadium
This appears to fall into that category. Its not really a Tzdekah so gofundme really wouldnt work as its not really a charity
I applaud the seller for thinking outside the box, To raise funds you need sometimes to think outside the box
The only issues I see are the following
THE SELLER WILL MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO AMICABLY RESOLVE ALL ISSUES TO THE MUTUAL SATISFACTION OF BOTH PARTIES. ANY OUTSTANDING UNRESOLVED ISSUES WILL BE REFERRED TO ARBITRATION OF THE JEWISH COURT OF LAW CHOSEN BY THE SELLER AT THE TIME OF SALE AND ALL DISPUTES WILL BE GOVERNED BY JEWISH RELIGIOUS TORAH LAW.
This is against ebay rules, anytime there is a dispute with an eBay listing you have to go through eBay for resolution. (Its their platform, they have the right to make any rules they want and if you dont like it, dont list there)
This Is also illegal according to eBay rules, You cannot make an open auction and deny a winning bidder, its against the rules (You can make a Pre-approved buyer auction, which is what the seller should have done)
1) TALMUD SPONSORSHIP IS A PART OF JEWISH RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE AND THUS UNFORTUNATELY AT THIS TIME BIDDING ON THIS AUCTION IS LIMITED TO THOSE WHO ARE JEWISH BY UNIVERSAL STANDARDS ACCEPTED BY ALL JEWISH COMMUNITIES.
Is also illegal according to eBay rules
How does anonymity change if he would say he’s the father?
because then he wouldn’t be anonymous to anyone who knows him. i think the point was respecting privacy/boundaries on personal issues.
Nobody is anonymous to people who know them…
Unless you mean that they will know that he opened an account on the CR to plug his eBay solicitation pretending to be an uninvolved person. I can live with that.
Actually eBay themselves say the opposite – from their site,
“Many problems are misunderstandings that can be worked out when members talk to one another. The first thing we recommend is for the buyer and seller to communicate…
If you aren’t able to work things out after communicating with your buyer or seller, you can contact us.”
It seems they say if you can’t work it out, they should arbitrate, not a beis din. OTOH, maybe agreeing in advance to a specific arbitrator would be considered communication and working it out…
Firstly eBay accepts the right of a buyer to cancel – there’s just the issue of potential negative feedback and potential legal consequences of breach of contract which here would not apply due to the terms explicitly excluding anyone other than Jews and secondly the seller would almost certainly win in a Beis Din in demanding that the buyer cancel his bid.
I think it’s unlikely that eBay would be okay with discrimination as long as it’s spelled out in advance. It would also be unlikely for someone who’s not a frum Yid to accept a psak from a beis din.
People who know the person with this screen name might not know he is the father. Why is that hard to understand, and what did he do to deserve such negativity from you?
How would anyone know who the person with this screen name is? And if someone did, they would probably know that he’s selling the sponsorship (or will when the siyum happens).
I don’t know for a fact that this poster is the father, I merely asked the question. If he is, I think there’s a lack of integrity here. Although to be fair, he could have outright lied and said it’s not him.
“the guy posting it is a long time eBay member with 100% positive feedback and unlikely to be playing any games”
As a buyer, not a seller.
“Plus the bidder on the auction is also a member with a 100% history”
Yes, 100% of this users bids, have been with this seller, for this item.
“and so while it’s easy to throw around anonymous comments on this thread”
It is just as easy to be anonymopus on ebay when you are not actually buying anything.
“it’s something else entirely to bid $9,700.”
not when you know you have zero to lose when you are the seller and bidder, or are in cahoots with the seller and you know you are not on the hook for 97 cents, let alone 9700 dollars.
“That’s putting one’s money where one’s mouth is – or in my opinion smart money.”
Or, in my opinion, a great practical joke.
If a buyer doesnt pay, the eBay fees will be waved
This auction will not complete. The “seller” has mistaken Kislev for Adar.
ZD, what happens if a buyer asks to be released from his commitment and the seller agrees? Do either of them suffer any consequences?
DY: No.
ZD, what happens if a buyer asks to be released from his commitment and the seller agrees? Do either of them suffer any consequences?
If both agree, there is no consequence, its only a problem if one doesnt consent. usually both sides will agree because its in the benefit of both to do so (but not always)
As far as the relgious discrimination clause at the bottom
eBay is a private company and has the right to dictate the rules when you use their platform. You cannot choose your own rules that overstep their rules.
If their rules are anyone can bid, then you must obey those rules. if you dont like the rules, you need to pick another platform
Thanks, ZD.
I didn’t think so.
A side note, there are people selling Tfillin on eBay and I onced asked one of the sellers how he could do so , He could not gurnatee a jew would buy them and the rules are you have to sell to the buyer if they insist
The seller said he would try to pay off buyers whom he thought should not have them (ie a buyer named Christine O’Connor)
What will you say if the auction does complete tomorrow?
I would not know if it was legit, or if the “buyer” and seller will agree to back out, with no negative consequences for trying to get someone to outbid the “buyer”.
Firstly, eBay’s rules cannot amend or change any direct legal contractual agreements between two parties.
That makes no sense. EBay’s rules precluded that contract from being effective.
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