- This topic has 38 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The Nefesh Hachaim explains how the world is constantly recreated every instant – מחדש בכל יום טובו מעשה בראשית. This means that every instant is a new world and a new creation.
My first question is – what happens on Shabbos, where HKB”H ‘rests’ from any creative force? The world is still being created every second, isn’t it?
This led me on to my next question – what were the 6 Days of Creation, if every second the entire world is re-created?
(The whole concept is almost beyond comprehension – besides for the existential issues, which don’t really bother me at all, there is a practical element which I don’t understand. Why am I responsible for the consequences of the actions I do if at the time of the consequence my action is no longer around? If I shoot an arrow, by the time it causes any damage, we are in a different world with some sort of master-illusion of my arrow in it’s trajectory, but it wasn’t me who shot this arrow!)
Yekke, what is your best guess or expectation (or hope if you can’t answer guess or expectation) as to what your vocation will be in 10 years from now?
The parts that are not in Shabbat are being recreated while those that are are not.
Yekke — no relevance.
You can ask as many questions as desired. 😉
If your Plan A, for whatever reason, doesn’t pan out, what’s your preferred Plan B?
Regarding your first question, I remember learning a Beis HaLevi that may have dealt with that topic. It was at least 15 years ago, so I can’t remember if it answered your question or not, but I’m pretty sure that it dealt with the topic.
Regarding your third question (the one in parenthesis), I think the answer is connected to the discussion on the Chilul Hashem thread and the source you brought there from the Mesilas Yesharim (thank you).
If you shoot an arrow at someone in order to kill him, and in fact, he does die, he only died because Hashem wanted him to die. Essentially, Hashem killed him, and not you. You are being punished for the fact that you used your bechira to choose to shoot an arrow that you knew could end up killing someone.
But actually, I don’t understand your question altogether. Even without my answer, and even if you want to say that you are being punished for the effect of your actions and not the bechira involved, what difference would it make if it’s the same arrow or not? Either way, it was your original action that led to its being there, so who cares if it’s the same arrow?
Think ‘form and matter’, and your questions melt away.
This should be self-understood in an age of digital realities.
Also, if this is how you understand his concept of מחדש בכל יום you have a much bigger problem than this Shabbos. We keep Shabbos as a confirmation that Hashem completed the creation in six days, and then it was complete.
Yekke, unless your nom de CR is sagi nahor you should know that it is never Shabbat everywhere in the world as both clock time and Sunrise/Sunset are different. In fact areas above the Arctic Circle have six months of day while areas below the Antarctic Circle have six months of night and vice versa.
The substance of all of creation is a constant, renewing command from HKBH. This is the underlying energy-matter of the universe.
Now, that is when we discuss יש itself. However, the term בריאה refers to inventing the concept of something, which is why it can refer to חושך even though in practice חושך wasn’t ‘built’ but rather left as the other side of the אור scale.
When we discuss an item we are discussing its form, its identifying qualities or personality. We don’t really pay attention to its makeup. Although my internal molecules change over within a given time it wouldn’t occur to you to consider me a ‘different’ person.
And so, the world was formed once and for all while the underlying substance does depend on a constant renewal.
My reference to electronics is that we are already used to the idea of character on a screen being referred to as an entity, all while we know good and well that its substance existence is constantly given forth by the local machine.
Yekke -thanks for your long response. I will try to respond when I have time, bli neder.
Joseph – he doesn’t need a Plan B – he will make a great Rebbe, IYH! (although I’d recommend giving up the internet at some point well before that).
Yekke: ” See Ohr HaChayim in Parshas Vayeishev who differentiates between a בעל בחירה and an animal. ”
The Sifsei Chaim discusses this and explains it in a way that doesn’t contradict what I wrote. I think it’s in a volume called “Emunah U’bechira Cheilik Beis” or something like that. I don’t see why you think this is different than the hishtadlus/parnassah discussion. The point is that Hashem is always the One who determines the results of our actions.
I even heard a certain Rav give the example that someone can’t eat treif unless Hashem wants them to. I’m assuming that the only reason Hashem would want them to is as a punishment for the fact that they used their bechira to decide to eat treif. I don’t remember if he was referring to a case of “shogeig” or “meizid” , but I’m pretty sure it was both.
Yekke – Regarding the sources you brought about the punishment being for the result and not the bechira, are you referring to Beis Din Shel Maaleh or Beis Din Shel Mateh? I was referring to Beis Din shel Maaleh, and I think you were referring to Beis Din to Mateh. Is that the case?
Regarding Beis Din Shel Mateh (if that is what you meant), I don’t think the original question is relevant. The idea that Hashem is continually recreating the world is an esoteric (I hope I’m using the word correctly) concept that has no place in Beis Din shel Mateh. That is also why Beis Din shel Mateh can only punish you for the result of the action and not the bechira.
I also wonder if that may be one of the problems with your questions in the first place (although I’m not 100% sure). The idea that Hashem is continually recreating the world is a kabbalistic concept, and it seems to me that you may be taking it too literally (but again, I may be wrong about that).
Yekke: “The answer to my question is, I think, that however literally you take this concept of continual creation, it is my koach shooting the arrow. It isn’t a different arrow, it is not a different victim, and it is my momentum propelling the arrow forth. If that isn’t paradoxical, however, i don’t know what is!”
Which I think is the same thing that I said when I wrote:
“But actually, I don’t understand your question altogether. Even without my answer, and even if you want to say that you are being punished for the effect of your actions and not the bechira involved, what difference would it make if it’s the same arrow or not? Either way, it was your original action that led to its being there, so who cares if it’s the same arrow?”
I don’t see why it’s a paradox, though. I think it goes back to the same idea that when we do anything, we are not really the ones who are causing the result – it is always Hashem who determines what will happen. Even if we didn’t know about the concept that Hashem is continually recreating the world, we would still say that it is not my “koach” in shooting the arrow, but Hashem who did it. Granted, the Beis Din shel Matteh would not be able to say that, but that is not what I am referring to.
However, knowing this concept (that Hashem is continually recreating the world) helps us to see this concept more clearly.
By the way, there is a really nice Sifsei Chaim where he writes that this idea that Hashem is always recreating the world gives much more meaning to all of our Mitzvos because it means that any Mitzvah that I do could never have been done before and can never be done again since the world right now (at the moment I am doing the Mitzva) never existed before and will never exist again. For that matter, I never existed before and will never exist again.
“Humorous story” (not sure if it’s appropriate to use that adjective in this context) that I was reminded of by my above statement: “I don’t remember if he was referring to a case of “shogeig” or “meizid” , but I’m pretty sure it was both.”
I just remembered why the idea of eating treif beshogeig came up. I think the Rav had actually given a different example, but I was reminded of an incident that had happened earlier that day and asked him about it.
I had been eating the Shabbos Seudah at a friend’s house, and she accidentally served her husband milchiks ice cream at the end of a fleishiks meal, mistakenly thinking that it was pareve. He was clearly really upset although he was trying hard to control himself. In order to lighten the mood for the sake of Shalom Bayis, I commented, “How appropriate that this davka happened on Shabbos Parshas B’reishis!”
I don’t know if it sounds funny in print after the fact, and maybe it’s inappropriate to refer to an incident involving eating treif (by accident) as funny, but the way I said it, it was very funny at the time, and it did the trick because it did get him to laugh.
LU,
I am quite sure that ypu misunderstood that rav. Hashem “allows” peopole to sin in the sense that He gave us free choice. However, how we use this is totally up to us (see Berachot 33b and Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 5:1). We even control if we get sick do to not guarding ourselves from weather conditions (Ketubot 20a).
As for your ice cream story, I heard that the Chatam Sofer said that a person who is shogeg on a d’rabbanan does not need to do teshuva as the aveira is not listening to Chazal (see also Meshech Chochma on Devarim 17:11 and Baal haNetivot quoted in
“What is the nature of דינים דרבנן ?” – online).This got far from the original topic. But anyhow we know that מחשבה טובה הקב”ה מצרפה למעשה ומחשבה רעה אין הקב”ה מצרפה למעשה. This seems to suggest that the outcome surely makes a difference.
Sure there is the idea that רחמנא ליבא בעי but that’s not all.
What about the Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh needs ‘answering’? Rav Saadya Gaon’s point was about being robbed, to which the Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh agrees (as he writes on ועשית עמדי חסד ואמת). The Gemara also mentions the idea that a Ganav gives Hashem more work in order to arrange to repay the victim the amount allotted to him on Rosh Hashanah.
As for murder, the Gemara in Chagiga says that even the Malach can at times kill without it being decreed. (Yes, I’m aware of Rabbeinu Chananel there.)
Avi K – I definitely did not misunderstand the Rav. I questioned him at length about it after the shiur.
I am not sure if you understood what I wrote. The sources that you brought do not contradict it (at least the way you phrased them). You wrote:
“Hashem “allows” peopole to sin in the sense that He gave us free choice. However, how we use this is totally up to us (see Berachot 33b and Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 5:1)”I did not write that we don’t have free choice (c”v). I wrote that the result of our aveiros is from Hashem. That is not the same thing.
As for the quote from the gemara about weather conditions, if I’m not mistaken, that is brought as the exception to the rule that: הכל בידי שמים.
It’s possible that you did understand what I wrote, and you just didn’t phrase your arguments well. If so, I know that it’s a difficult concept to understand and to accept. That is precisely why I discussed it with the Rav at length afterwards. After thinking about it for a while, I did understand the point at least to some extent.
In any case, that exact example is not so relevant to the topic at hand. I was just using it as an extreme example to show how הכל בידי שמים
Yekke – there is a reason that everyone tries to be “meyasheiv” the Ohr HaChaim. If you see a source that seems to contradict basic principles of the Torah, that generally means that it doesn’t mean what you think it means. Most things can’t be understood “b’pashtus” and certainly not an Ohr HaChaim, and certainly not an Ohr HaChaim that seems to contradict basic Torah concepts.
Yekke – good points in response to Avi’s claim that there is no punishment for a D’Rabbanan done b’shogeig.
I am not familiar with any of the sources on the topic, but my reasoning would be that there would be no reason for anyone to learn the halachos d’Rabbanan.
Unless, you want to distinguish between someone who never learned the halacha (and could have done so) and a case in which he did know the halacha but erred.
But I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn’t be punished for negligence in a case like the one I brought where she should have looked more carefully at the container. (I’m not saying that I couldn’t have done the same, but it does show a certain lack of carefulness with halacha).
My first question is – what happens on Shabbos, where HKB”H ‘rests’ from any creative force? The world is still being created every second, isn’t it?
Pikuach nefesh
This led me on to my next question – what were the 6 Days of Creation, if every second the entire world is re-created?
When the world first came into existence without having been previously in existence.
Why am I responsible for the consequences of the actions I do if at the time of the consequence my action is no longer around?
Hashem uses the way the world existed in the previous moment as a template for how He creates it in the next moment.
More fundamentally, we are responsible for what seems to be the result of our actions, even if in a higher reality we didn’t really cause it (perhaps LU said this).
The parts that are not in Shabbat are being recreated while those that are are not.
I think you are incorrectly limiting the Nefesh Hachaim.
Also, if the parts that are in Shabbos aren’t being recreated because Hashem is there, He shouldn’t be recreating any parts, since He is in a part where it is Shabbos.
I just remembered why the idea of eating treif beshogeig came up.
Milchig ice cream is not “treif”, even for someone who just ate meat. There is an issur to eat it, but it’s not “treif”.
“More fundamentally, we are responsible for what seems to be the result of our actions, even if in a higher reality we didn’t really cause it (perhaps LU said this).”
Yeah, I think so. I just use a lot more words than you do – probably as a result of my “9 kavim”
“Milchig ice cream is not “treif”, even for someone who just ate meat. There is an issur to eat it, but it’s not “treif”.”
Whatever….
I mean you’re right, but whatever.
I mean you’re right, but whatever.
It’s not just semantics. You’re allowed to feed milchig to a child who hasn’t reached chinuch age even if they just ate meat, as long as there’s no meat in his mouth.
This wouldn’t be true if it was “treif”, because of the issur to be ma’achil b’yodayim.
Sorry, I thought it was semantics. I thought that you meant that it’s called not-kosher, not treif.
I’m still not sure what you are saying. I used the word “treif” to mean “non-kosher”. It is not technically correct to use the word ”treif” in place of non-kosher. That ‘s what I thought you meant. That would be semantics.
It sounds like you are saying something else. Are you saying that it wouldn’t even be correct to refer to milk after meat as “unkosher”? I’m not sure why that should be.
Why are you allowed to feed the kid milk after meat? Is that because it’s only a gezeira and not the real issur of basar b’chalav or for another reason?
משל למה הדבר דומה
Say you have a computer running on an electric current coming through the wall. The constancy of the current is enabling everything else to continue without returning to תהו, or “off.” Every click of the mouse and press of a button is independently meaningful but at the same time has no life without the current that is constantly being powered through. Hashem powers the world continuously without ever stopping. During the six days he clicked the mouse and typed on the keyboard, on Shabbos he rested and just let his power flow without manipulating it in any way.
“what happens on Shabbos, where HKB”H ‘rests’ from any creative force? The world is still being created every second, isn’t it?”
Yes it is. But since on Shabbos the worlds are elevated, the world’s lifeforce comes from Hashem’s Thought as opposed to His Speech.
I will get back to you with the first answer IYH
“what were the 6 Days of Creation, if every second the entire world is re-created?”
In short, Hashem created the world, in six days, through the asara Maamaros. Hashem then constantly recreates the world every second by “repeating” the asara maamaros.To understand how this works, and also how the AM create every object in the world, please see the Alter Rebbe’s Shaar Hayichud vihaemuna, perek1 below:
להבין מעט מזער מ”ש בזהר דשמע ישראל כו’ הוא יחודא עילאה ובשכמל”ו הוא יחודא תתאה:
וידעת היום והשבות אל לבבך כי ה’ הוא האלהים בשמים ממעל ועל הארץ מתחת אין עוד. וצריך להבין וכי תעלה על דעתך שיש אלהים נשרה במים מתחת לארץ שצריך להזהיר כ”כ והשבות אל לבבך. הנה כתיב לעולם ה’ דברך נצב בשמים ופי’ הבעש”ט ז”ל כי דברך שאמרת יהי רקיע בתוך המים וגו’ תיבות ואותיות אלו הן נצבות ועומדות לעולם בתוך רקיע השמים ומלובשות בתוך כל הרקיעים לעולם להחיותם כדכתיב ודבר אלהינו יקום לעולם ודבריו חיים וקיימים לעד כו’ כי אילו היו האותיות מסתלקות כרגע [לרגע] ח”ו וחוזרות למקורן היו כל השמים אין ואפס ממש והיו כלא היו כלל וכמו קודם מאמר יהי רקיע כו’ ממש וכן בכל הברואים שבכל העולמות עליונים ותחתונים ואפי’ ארץ הלזו הגשמית ובחי’ דומם ממש אילו היו מסתלקות ממנה כרגע [לרגע] ח”ו האותיות מעשרה מאמרות שבהן נבראת הארץ בששת ימי בראשית היתה חוזרת לאין ואפס ממש כמו לפני ששת ימי בראשית ממש וז”ש האר”י ז”ל שגם בדומם ממש כמו אבנים ועפר ומים יש בחי’ נפש וחיות רוחנית דהיינו בחי’ התלבשות אותיות הדבור מעשרה מאמרו’ המחיות ומהוות את הדומם להיות יש מאין ואפס שלפני ששת ימי בראשית
ואף שלא הוזכר שם אבן בעשרה מאמרות שבתורה אעפ”כ נמשך חיות לאבן ע”י צירופים וחילופי אותיו’ המתגלגלות ברל”א שערים פנים ואחור כמ”ש בס’ יצירה עד שמשתלשל מעשרה מאמרות ונמשך מהן צירוף שם אבן והוא חיותו של האבן וכן בכל הנבראים שבעולם השמות שנקראים בהם בלשון הקדש הן הן אותיות הדבור המשתלשלו’ ממדרגה למדרגה מעשרה מאמרות שבתורה ע”י חילופים ותמורות האותיות ברל”א שערים עד שמגיעות ומתלבשות באותו נברא להחיותו לפי שאין פרטי הנבראים יכולים לקבל חיותם מעשרה מאמרות עצמן שבתורה שהחיות הנמשך מהן עצמן גדול מאד מבחי’ הנבראים פרטיים ואין כח בהם לקבל החיות אלא ע”י שיורד החיות ומשתלשל ממדרגה למדרגה פחותה ממנה ע”י חילופים ותמורות האותיות וגימטריאות שהן חשבון האותיות עד שיוכל להתצמצם ולהתלבש ולהתהוות ממנו נברא פרטי וזה שמו אשר יקראו לו בלה”ק הוא כלי לחיות המצומצם באותיות שם זה שנשתלשל מעשרה מאמרות שבתורה שיש בהם כח וחיות לברוא יש מאין ולהחיותו לעולם דאורייתא וקב”ה כולא חד:“Why am I responsible for the consequences of the actions I do if at the time of the consequence my action is no longer around? If I shoot an arrow, by the time it causes any damage, we are in a different world with some sort of master-illusion of my arrow in it’s trajectory, but it wasn’t me who shot this arrow!”
nothing we do can hurt someone if it wasn’t intended for them, and we are held responsible for our choice- whether good or bad. See letter 25, from iggeros kodesh of the Alter Rebbe. Actually I cant post it below because its too long, and I also cant post a link, so I guess google tanya, and in the igeres hakodesh section, its letter 25.
Btw, apparently, science has discovered this reality as well, that the smallest they can break things down to, is energy, which constantly goes in and out of existence. So our world with hard, concrete objects is just a facade, and the Asara Maamaros is the code for everything- each object as explained above.
Beyond that, every letter of the aleph beis has a specific meaning which is shown in its form, and in each word in lashon kodesh, the letters actually form what the meaning of the word is. I have just learned this in some depth and find this fascinating! I opened a thread on it, but havent bothered to elaborate as no one seemed quite interested.
“Hashem uses the way the world existed in the previous moment as a template for how He creates it in the next moment.”
Yeah this is when He works through nature mode.
“More fundamentally, we are responsible for what seems to be the result of our actions, even if in a higher reality we didn’t really cause it (perhaps LU said this).”
Agreed but I would add that every intention and every action causes an effect in the spiritual worlds even more than in this world.
The example given is the story of the Baal Shem Tov who once walked into shul and heard a guy yell to another one that he will tear him up like a fish!
The Baal Shem Tov had his students link arms and close their eyes and they suddenly shrieked in horror because they saw the guy actually ripping up the other. Every thought word and action has an effect, whether in this world or Above.
Question to Daasyochid: how do you manage to italicize the words? It makes it much neater
Agreed but I would add that every intention and every action causes an effect in the spiritual worlds even more than in this world.
Yes, but that doesn’t do any more to answer the question, because I would assume that Hashem re-creates the spiritual worlds as well.
To italicize, put
<em>before the text, and</em>after it.But since on Shabbos the worlds are elevated, the world’s lifeforce comes from Hashem’s Thought as opposed to His Speech.
If you would like to actually understand this practically I’ll be happy to elaborate. Thanks Daas yochid😀. Now how can I post images from a sefer?
@DY
Yes, but that doesn’t do any more to answer the question, because I would assume that Hashem re-creates the spiritual worlds as well.What that was addressing was the question why, if I’m responsible for my intention although the result is not up to me, is there a halachic distinction as to whether someone is chayiv misa cvs. Meaning they are only chayiv if they actually kill the person, but not if they wanted to, so why the distinction?
I’m answering that they did kill him, on a metaphysical level. And will be punished for it milimaala unless he does teshuva. Just here in the earthly realm, bes din is extremely cautious with putting one to death (for example circumstantial evidence is never accepted) so that they don’t end up killing someone who was really innocent.
Hashem knows the heart and He judges by it. We metals can only judge what our eyes see happen.
Ie hanistoros laHashem Elokeinu vhaniglos lanu ulvoneinu ….
The very concept of the question is in a way similar to the known Midrash in Breshis about rain on Shabbos.
אמר לו (טורנוסרופוס לר’ עקיבא): אם כדבריך שהקב”ה מכבד את השבת, אל ישב בה רוחות, אל יוריד בה גשמים, אל יצמיח בה עשב. אמר לו: תיפח רוחיה דההוא גברא. אמשול לך משל, לשנים שהיו דרין בחצר אחת, אם אין זה נותן עירוב וזה נותן עירוב, שמא מותרין לטלטל בחצר?! אבל אם היה אחד דר בחצר, הרי הוא מותר בכל החצר כולה. אף כאן הקב”ה, לפי שאין רשות אחרת עמו וכל העולם כולו שלו, מותר בכל עולם כולו
However, Rav Tzadok HaKohen of Lublin gives the following simple explanation:
אבל האמת דבשביתת הקב״ה הוא רק במלאכתו בששת ימי בראשית שזה נקרא מלאכה דידיו ומשנברא אדם מסר הכל בידו- וכל מה שנפעל בעולם אחר שנברא – הוא מעשה ידיהם של צדיקים
He is basically saying that all the above pertains to the original world created – all the other ones are being created through מעשה ידיהם של צדיקים and thus not included in שביתת הקב״ה.
See link below for the full mamar:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21327&st=&pgnum=10@yekke- how dare you mention that we learn this from Nefesh Hachaim and other sources when clearly it is only stated in Tanya?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.