Six-Day-War Major-general “There was a Siyata diShmaya”

“if the 6 day war was a miracle, then Johnson was a navi” – the Divrei yoel z”l.

I’m not a satmar chossid, but I’m not going to refrain from quoting the emes. The CIA chief at the time said that Israel would win in “probably 6 or 7 days”.

It’s nice that he believes in God. He should apply that supposed faith and campaign for a kosher army. “Hashem should be with you” – is Hashem “with* those who eat treif, are mechalel shabbos, and who think that being Jewish is being a zionist? Does Hashem support the defilement of har habayis that was the result of the war? Hashem is behind everything in the world, including famine, pandemics, holocausts – and the victory of the wicked.

>>>The CIA chief at the time said that Israel would win in “probably 6 or 7 days”.

Can you give a direct to where that was said . I know YWN does not allow links so give some basic ways I can find that prediction. I’ve tried to do so and all I could come up was predictions of Israeli victory between six and eight WEEKS with tens of thousands of Israeli dead (which actually matches the Israeli predictions)

Plus at that point in time the CIA was also predicating the US would quickly win in Vietnam as well.
So the CIA were no neviem and their assessment is of little value. Particularly when it makes so little sense. How was Israel with less than a third the amount of soldier, planes, tanks and other equipment supposed to win the war in less than a week?

I agree that the Israeli government is and always was immoral. But who are we to judge who Hashem is with? Hashem was with Achav and the Yidden in his time even though they worshipped avoidah zarah. The Midrashim and Rishonim say that ikvisa dimishicha there will be an immoral government in Eretz Yisroel. This is bad, bit it is leading to yimois haMoshiach.

Motcha, while achav was an oved avoda zara, it doesn’t say that his army had people who were involved in ervas davar – that’s what the pasuk says will cause Hashem to turn away r”l.

The Israeli army, however, does and is proud of it. The army itself was designed to be an indoctrination tool and place of iniquity – in the same book, rabbi shapiro cites manu sources attesting to the activities of the average IDF soldier. Rav avigdor miller cites in “awake my glory” abortion statistics, that most women are members of the army at the time of their infanticide.

Therefore, any success they have is from the sitra achra, since Hashem says he turns away from such an army. The brisker rov, alternatively, said that the yidden who daven and are frum are protecting the rest…in effect, we are safe in eretz yisroel in spite of the army, bzchus the yirayim ve’shlaymim.

Pick a shitah; both are daas torah.

>>>Smerel, rabbi yaakov shapiro’s “the empty wagon” devoted an entire chapter to this issue – he has all the quotes there,

I’m not going through a one thousand page book to find the quote and it’s source. Which page is it on.

Plus having read some of “The Empty Wagon” on this topic all I can do is note the irony of the fact that the book pushes the Kochey V’Otzem Yodey attitude even worse than the secular Zionists do.

No, he’s saying that they are ovair arayos a lot.

Christianity believes in a dualistic, independently powerful devil/satan. He can do things against what they call god.

We don’t have such a concept; evil was created by Hashem and does not function autonomously. Demons don’t have bechirah, and neither does the sitra achra. We still want to keep away from it, because it is against the revealed will of Hashem, kedushah, and l things that are good for us. This idea is explained in detail in the kisvei arizal, and the tanya in a few places. The ramchal mentions it in derech aitz chaim and in the hakdoma to kalach pischei chochma, and reb elchonon vasserman in his ikvesa demieshicha oage 263, quotes it as well. Chazal use the term “maysoh soton” in a few places, such as the vision that the soton made by har Sinai that Moshe was dead as part of the nisayon of the egel hazahav. Devarim 13:4 says that a navi sheker may produce a miracle; that miracle is a maysoh soton, a challenge that we must withstand, just like any other yatzer hora.

Ultimately everything is from Hashem, as ein ohd milvado – nothing truly exists besides Hashem, but the same way we keep away from physical fire, even though there’s nothing besides Hashem, we keep away from negative spiritual realities, be they aveiros, shedim, ruchos raos, or maysoh soton.

Where does the empty wagon advocate kochi veotzem yodi? I went through it many times, and I have not seen anything remotely resembling such an attitude.

Empty wagon quotes regarding the 6 day war are on pages 609-613. There’s a pretty clear index…you don’t need to search through the pages to find topics; they’re clearly labeled.

AAQ, the defilement is that jews are walking on it in a state of tumah, committing an issur kares in the holiest place in the world

Bamidbar 5,2,vayishalchu – we’re all tamei, and there are many sefaikos as to where the makom hamikdash is. Rambam in bias hamikdash perek 3. Zionist rabbis have bended over backwards to allow this issur for nationalist purposes. Min hashomayim, nothing makes the arabs as angry as when jews ascend har habayis – this is hashgocha and Hashem’s way of reminding us to keep the halacha and stay off.

What do they do that’s particularly evil?

Indoctrination classes, intentionally mixing genders, constantly trying to draft girls…the army was built as a cultural center initially, to promote zionism – that’s not my theory, it’s the words of ben gurion and his apikorsim. He was asked how he would integrate sefardim and other groups into Israeli society, and his answer was the army. I’d again refer to the empty wagon for a comprehensive list of quotes and examples of this.

Smerel, i don’t believe you’re understanding his intention properly. Everything is min hashomayim, and he reminds us of this in many, many places. His point was the the gedolim said that the 6 day war was a war like the American revolution, civil war, gulf war, and countless others that were within derech hateva. His explanations, citations etc are meant to explain that the war was not a neis, not that it’s not min hashomayim – those are two very, very different ideas

When you go to work and bring home a paycheck, when you take Tylenol for a headache, you are both acknowledging that it’s Hashem behind the curtain, and that He’s running your life through derech hateva. When the Tylenol works or the boss gives you a check, it’s not a neis that’s outside Teva, it’s a neis that is “al nisecha shebechol yom emanu”, “miracles”that are with us always… But we don’t say halel on that, and we’re not even allowed to, as chazal say about someone who says halel everyday…

If someone says that America winning the iraq war was a neis, you’d say he’s wrong – it’s absolutely min hashomayim, but it’s not a neis, because America has an exponentially greater army than Iraq. So too here; Israel had a lot of advantages, so the war was not a miracle at all. The satmar rov said that the only neis that happened was that the soton was so successful in convincing people that a neis had happened.

Using “The Empty Wagon” as a reliable source of history is a mistake. While it does have many good references, the author’s blatant bias is apparent on every page and the neutral balancing of sources is not displayed.

>>>His point was the the gedolim said that the 6 day war was a war like the American revolution, civil war, gulf war, and countless others that were within derech hateva.

That is exactly what the militantly atheistic Zionists say too. If the American revolution, civil war, gulf war and other wars were also a situation of very two unequal sides facing with such a quick victory for the weaker side with so few causalities for them I would also see and say that the Yad Hashem was on their side.

>>>So too here; Israel had a lot of advantages, so the war was not a miracle at all.

Can you name the Israeli advantages other than claimed ingenuity and better planning?

>>>But we don’t say halel on that, and we’re not even allowed to, as chazal say about someone who says halel everyday…

I don’t say Hallel for the Six day war either but based on that logic you can stop saying “Rabim B’Yad Me’atim and many other parts of the Chanuka story from Bemay MAtisyahu. I’m sure the Misyavnim back then also said the Chasmoniam were stronger, smarter etc and won through natural means.

>>>Why are they called laitzonei hador?

Because they refused to acknowledge Yad Hasem and said after all the years Sorah did not become pregnant from Avorhom it must be that she can’t and became pregnant from Avimelech.

>>>Ever wonder why the same people who consider themselves “rationalist”, eschew kabalah etc.

Actually the oppisite. Rabbi Berel Wein has the observation that throughout history three groups have frequently shared and advocated the same position with regard to various Jewish community issues .those groups are (1)The very, very far right frum groups (2)the militantly atheistic anti-religious Jewish groups and (3) the non-Jewish anti-Semites . This approach to the the Six Day War (and the general approach to the State of Israel today) is just a typical example following history.

Avira > Tell them you have doubts about if the wars were miracles,

I can answer that, I think: Hashem introduces himself as One who took us out of mitzrayim – because this is what Jews just witnessed. So, someone who was sitting in a tank in 6 day war is naturally talking about that. You would too if you were there.

I don’t understand what r. berel weins comments have to do with anything (not that i agree with them, for a host of reasons)

Only here, by Israel’s wars, do otherwise “rationalist” jews start going on and on about miracles. They also, erroneously, believe that these miracles are “proof” that they are right.

We don’t decide who is right by miracles, like the tanor achnai where rebbe eliezer’s miracles were dismissed, as torah laav beshomayim hi.

When a group bases theit beliefs largely on miracles, such as zionists, messianic lubavitchers, shabsai tzvi and other deviances, it is a clear message to all shomrei torah to keep far away.

AvirahDeArah, everything you had said on this topic is emes. Very well put.

I am talking about the Chayalim

Syag, he has an interpretation of history; we’re not speaking about straight facts. Unless someone is a gadol batorah, the argument from authority is weak and not convincing. I’m entitled to have a different opinion than him. From your posts i don’t think you agree with everything the covid experts say, even though they’re scientists and know a lot more about medicine than you do, and medicine is much more of a hard science than history.

For the record, being a popular history book writer isn’t even much of an authoritative position.

Gershom scholem knows more about history than i do, but his ideas are anti torah and he is simply wrong about a lot of things.

That was R Wein’s own commentary on history; not simply his reporting history. Avira’s correct question was how smerel’ citation of R Wein’s commentary is relevant to this discussion.

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ujm – it has been quite amusing to watch you take a back seat to Avirah’s posts over these months (is it perhaps years yet?) as he speaks for you but at greater length and detail. I have been wondering what you have been filling your extra time with, part time kollel perhaps?

I wasn’t equating scholem with r. Wein; i was saying that merely being a historian doesn’t mean I’ll be machniah myself, whether they’re religious, a rabbi, or anyone else.

For the record, Avirah edited his last posts to say he was relying on information from his rabbeim instead of just his own knowledge, which it did NOT say originally.

AviraDeArah, you can say whatever you want about R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky zt”l, but it’s not true.
A student at the time wrote an article about what R’ Yaakov really said. It was also said by R’ Reisman in one of his shiurim.

In Torah v’Daas they brought a television into the yeshiva to see the news of the war. When they announced that the Har haBayis had been captured, R’ Yaakov ran into the beis medrash and made a shehecheyanu. He then began reciting Hallel, with tears streaming down his cheeks.

Also re, rav yaakov; i was close with an elderly oved Hashem who worked in the office for many decades, and was active in managerial issues in the yeshiva. He used to tell me stories about his early years, and he said he was there when rav shraga feivel gave a shiur following the war of independence, with him saying that he doesn’t know for sure, but that it might be the beginning of bias Hamoshiach. He said he would wait to see what the gedolei hador would say. The next say rav yaakov said clearly that it has not related to the geulah, and rav shraga feivel accepted this psak.

Marx, if you ever spent time in a brisker Yeshiva, you’d see the unusual emphasis placed on the accurate retelling of stories. One of my roshei Yeshiva said that by rav berel, the talmidim would discuss it if one time he used a different….word, yes, a different word in his explanation. They take history very seriously.

I never said that the 6 day war myth developed in the way you’re describing. Actually,i haven’t addressed that question directly, so I’ll do so now.

The state of Israel purposefully grew the myth of both the danger they were in as well as the legend of their unlikely victory. That’s artificial. I’m referring to groups of people who take their own history as seriously as they do teshuvos reb akiva eiger.

Zionist circles have a mythology, including a made up story that West point academy doesn’t teach about the 6 day war, because it’s a miracle. That’s not rooted in a misunderstanding that developed; it’s just plain, demonstrable sheker. It’s on their curriculum and you can find it on Google.

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