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“The wedding ring is only applicable for a woman.”
Many frum women insist that their husband wear a wedding band for this reason.
I think that for many people in the CR, it would be wrong to sit next to people of the same gender. Not kidding.
Think aloud all you wish. Females tend to be more respectful of other peoples space, therefore, if I do sit next to a female or one sits down next to me I don’t have to be concerned with sharing my seat with anyone. Their male counterparts on the other hand sit down and spread out as if half the subway car is reserved for them and it doesn’t matter if someone else already occupies that space.
Let me ask you. Would you prefer I stand next to a female instead of sitting? Does it matter if I was sitting first? Would you prefer I wait for the next train, or perhaps walk to my destination? Please elucidate.
You are also assuming that I choose to sit next to a female, which is not the case. I did say that I WILL sit next to one and I have found that they are more civilised than males resulting in a more relaed trip.
I can understand why women would need to nurse on a plane…but as far as any other public place- I think its disgusting. I’ve seen a woman in an open pizza shop sitting at the table with friends nursing her baby. I saw one walking down 13th avenue while nursing…
Nurse on the plane all you want- but dont let it get out of hand. And if there is a frum man next to you, you should definitely warn him before takeoff so that he isnt stuck when he figures it out.
For some reason a nursing woman properly covered up doesn’t bother me or make me uncomfortable, in any way. On the other hand, when a woman pulls out her makeup bag and starts to make herself up….
🙂
whatrutalkingabout,
Where is the woman in the pizza shop supposed to nurse? And why can you eat in the pizza shop but the baby can’t?
Sorry, I don’t think women should be restricted as to where they can nurse.
If you don’t like it, stay at home.
SJS: Ittisa agrees with you. It does bother me, but I am working on it so that it should not do so. There is no logical reason why it should bother me.
“If you don’t like it, stay at home.”
like bpt said, it’s a free country and you can do whatever in the world you want. but that is talking like a shiksa. a goyta would just nurse in a pizza shop, not thinking twice about it.
Sorry, I don’t think women should be restricted as to where they can nurse.
I don’t think women should be restricted. I generally don’t believe in restricting people.
I just think women should be judicious in exercising their freedoms.
I still cannot get over that women spend their entire day making up new chumros in tznius, on such vague assertions as “it attracts attention”, and then turn around and insist on nursing in public, which is unquestionably worse than most non-tzius things you can do which are not blatantly against halacha.
Popa, I’m not part of the chumra-of-the-week club.
How is a woman with a nursing baby supposed to leave the house? If a woman is covered completely while nursing, how is this non-tznius?
like bpt said, it’s a free country and you can do whatever in the world you want. but that is talking like a shiksa. a goyta would just nurse in a pizza shop, not thinking twice about it.
LOL. And a non jew (you are using the word “goyta” as a slur) also breathes. Should I suggest you stop breathing as well? Of course not.
Besides, what are you doing out of the Kitchen? A TRUE Bas Yisroel would not be caught in a pizza shop. Let alone being outside, eating Pizza is not Tznius (for obvious reasons).
Nursing in public or even in front of other children is wrong and against halacha . It is something you do in private, a time to bind with your child. Unfortunately we are becoming more and more desensitized to these so called Women issues in general.Using the bathroom is something you have to do and some people feel the need to do it in public.Yet the Torah teaches us Tznius and there is a Whole siman In SA about it.
I am a store owner of high end product so my store is not always with many people, at least on three or four different occasions woman while talking to me in front of my face start nursing their babies. USID LITEN ES HADIN
SJS
“Where is the woman in the pizza shop supposed to nurse? And why can you eat in the pizza shop but the baby can’t?”
Not directly in front of the open pizza shop door. Either go to the bathroom in back, or if you cant for whatever reason, at least find a table in the back corner and nurse facing the back wall.
The best seat is a window so you don’t have to be bothered every time someone gets up. I would rather sit next to a woman than what I got stuck with enroute to EY. I had to sit next to a smelly, fat Arab. It must have been getting close to his yearly bath.
Jewish Source, can you please quote a source that says a woman is not allowed to nurse in public if she is fully covered?
whatrutalkingabout, that may be your preference, but why? If a woman is fully covered, what is wrong with her nursing her child? Is it just general discomfort on your part?
Obviously if a woman is not covered we are discussing something different.
I often nurse in my baby carrier and you cannot even tell the baby is nursing. It just looks like the baby is snuggling up to me. I’m not going to stop for your discomfort.
GAW, your wife is wise 🙂
Oh Popa, you can’t understand. You’ll never understand.
Like I said, this is clearly a mother thing, so I’ll just take a step back and let you have it your way.
But consider this: were a male to act in the manner you describe, fully covered by a partition / blanket / ect, he would be removed from the plane in handcuffs. And rightfully so.
Some things, regardless of how “right and within your rights” are still very much not ok to do. And yes, I / my wife travelled a great deal with infants. And yes, she nursed (but used a bottle as well. And never once did the nursing in public become an issue. There are always altenatives, if you feel like seeking them out.
(Note, I changed my call out from “this is a woman thing” to this is a mother thing, as from the feedback, it seems that most single women see this as out of bounds too)
SJSinNYC
show me a source you cannot use the bathroom in public
Jewish source,
When you claim something is halacha, you should bring a source. Why can’t a mother nurse in front of other children????
Can you define “public”? Because AFAIK, there used to be bathrooms in the field that multiple people could use. Aren’t there halachos of talking while using a bathroom? If no one was around, why would you need those halachos?
Neverless, if a man were wearing a “brief relief” would that be a problem?
People with incontinence issues certainly wear depends and use them in public.
bpt, I think the theory makes people uncomfortable. I used to be one of them. Until it was my child that needed feeding. There is no logical reason to be bothered by it, assuming a woman is covered.
“show me a source you cannot use the bathroom in public”
Surely you mean “Can”, not “canno”. Didnt you already mention siman gimmel in orach chaim?
bpt,
But consider this: were a male to act in the manner you describe, fully covered by a partition / blanket / ect, he would be removed from the plane in handcuffs. And rightfully so.
This is a flawed argument, as men do not nurse infants.
Given the case described here of a woman on an airplane with a nursing infant who does not accept a bottle and where using the lavatory is unfeasible, should the woman deny her hungry child food and let him cry?
poppa bar abba,
I assume that you leave shul on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh while the haftorah is being read.
“whatrutalkingabout, that may be your preference, but why? If a woman is fully covered, what is wrong with her nursing her child? Is it just general discomfort on your part?”
Yeah I guess it is a general discomfort on my part. I feel that Jewish women should have a little more busha than their goyish counterparts. Even if nothing is exposed, I think its embarrassing to know that the lady next to you on the plane is nursing.
Sorry, Avram. I’m outta this one.
Moms, (and those who wish to defend them)… take it away.
Has anyone here’s grandmother, even once, nursed in public (including covered up)? I sincerely doubt it. I doubt even the goyim of that generation were wont to do so. How did they manage?
“And yes, I / my wife travelled a great deal with infants. And yes, she nursed (but used a bottle as well. And never once did the nursing in public become an issue. There are always altenatives, if you feel like seeking them out.”
BPT, can you please give an example of what alternatives there are on the plane? Many women will be very grateful to you for this. I’ve spoken to quite a few friends about this–and these are very yeshivish friends I’m talking about, who do not generally nurse in public–and everyone of them said that they stay in their seat to nurse on the plane since there is no other option. Since you seem to feel otherwise, maybe help us all out with this.
I think the bathroom analogy, made above, is a valid one. Is there a strict prohibition of using an open latrine placed in middle of an open room, so long as the person is completely and entirely covered to the point it almost looks like he/she is just sitting on a chair comfortably?
“This is a flawed argument, as men do not nurse infants.”
And if they would, it would probably be considered completely fine for them to do it in public, just as men seem comfortable walking down the street without a shirt while a woman would never dream of doing such a thing.
I could understand in certain scenarios like a plane you simply have no choice.
BUT
on the street
in eateries
in stores
in front of everyone, I mean do your preparations before you go out.
i for one dont want women using the airplane restrooms for nursing.
its hard enough to get an open restroom on a plane when you need it
” can you please give an example of what alternatives there are on the plane? “
As much as I really don’t want to pursue this, as it really just boils down to an opinion, I’m still standing by the restroom venue.
Airplane restrooms are cleaner than some kitchens. And as far as the wait, waiting on line for the restroom is a given. You’re just as entitled to your time slot as the next person.
Now, in anticipation of the next question, “what should I do with / who should watch the other 2-3-4 kids I’m travelling with, while I’m in the restroom feeding infant” with multiple kids, bottles are a pretty sure thing, as childcare is most likely a given.
Is it easier to just feed in your seat? Of course. But consider your neighbor. Look at it this way; what if a 21 y/o bochur, flying off for his year in EY is your seatmate. Imagine the many shades of purple he will turn while the feeding is going on (covered and all). Now imagine this is YOUR SON, sitting next to some tourist, who does not make the effort to cover up the same way a yiddishe mamma does. Still feel its “the mother’s right” to feed her infant in public? I didn’t think so. That’s why we need to set an example of tznius, even when “we can do so without a technical problem”
Like I said, there are options. If you want to take them.
BPT
Imagine the many shades of purple he will turn while ..
WAITING IN LINE!!!
Anouther point – nursing can be done SO DISCREET, tznuadig, so that NO ONE is the wiser, not your son, not her son, NO ONE! Trust me! We’ve been on a place… no one even graced us with a glance.
ZeesKite
You are dreaming sleep tight gitternach sweet dreams zeeser chaloimes a freilachen purim
Sorry, typo read: on a plane
“Has anyone here’s grandmother, even once, nursed in public (including covered up)? I sincerely doubt it. I doubt even the goyim of that generation were wont to do so. How did they manage?
They managed by nursing in public and in close quarters. Do you think they went to the outhouse? Get over it, that’s what women did, from the beginning of history (read your bible).
poppa bar abba,
I assume that you leave shul on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh while the haftorah is being read.
…?? ??? ? ????? ????
???? ????? ??? ?????…
I’m not sure what you are referring to.
Do women nurse during the haftara on shabbos rosh chodesh? I have never seen this.
bpt, you wrote:
“Now, in anticipation of the next question, “what should I do with / who should watch the other 2-3-4 kids I’m travelling with, while I’m in the restroom feeding infant” with multiple kids, bottles are a pretty sure thing, as childcare is most likely a given.”
Actually, for my youngest, who has several older siblings k”ah, a bottle was not a “sure thing”; since she was never away from me for long as an infant, she never learned to accept a bottle. I’m sure many other mothers had the same experience. When our family traveled together by plane, I nursed during takeoff and landing and other times as needed. No one seemed to notice and since she was quiet no one cared.
More than once I’ve traveled alone with a baby and the person sitting next to me slept for most of the ride. This would not have been possible if I’d have tried to give a bottle.
Regarding my iy”h future grown son flying to e”y: if the least tzniusdig sight he sees is a mother discreetly nursing an infant in her seat, then ashreinu. I have very rarely seen any woman reveal much while nursing an infant in public, and never a frum woman.
Grandmaster — “Has anyone here’s grandmother, even once, nursed in public (including covered up)? I sincerely doubt it. I doubt even the goyim of that generation were wont to do so. How did they manage?”
Actually, I have a nursing book published in 1958 with an entire chapter discussing how to nurse discreetly in public places! I agree that nowadays many goyim nurse in ways that are indiscreet and obviously not tznius, but that’s not our discussion.
In addition, I don’t have the source but I know this topic is discussed by Chazal, and that even in the times of Chazal women dealt with this issue.
bpt — “Airplane restrooms are cleaner than some kitchens. And as far as the wait, waiting on line for the restroom is a given. You’re just as entitled to your time slot as the next person.”
I don’t know what airplanes you’ve been flying on, or whose kitchens you’ve been eating in. . . Many public places have reasonably clean bathrooms, but NOT airplanes in my experiences (airports are actually not so bad). As far as “your time slot” the bathrooms on airplanes are assumed to be used for a specific purpose. The time slot required to use the facilities, even if you need some extra time is no where near what is required to nurse an infant — particularly if you have a slow eater. One of my kids had poor sucking skills and required about 45 minutes per feeding (and as a young baby ate every 3 – 4 hours. Tying up a restroom for 45 minutes every 4 hours is a lot more than would be considered a reasonable time slot!
It honestly sounds that you don’t have much experience with babies being nursed exclusively or primarily, which is why you are having trouble understanding this discussion. For many women, “just give a bottle” is not a practical solution for the baby or the mother, and that seems to really be what you mean by “alternatives”.
I would have no problem with my son sitting next to a properly covered woman feeding her baby. I do not think he would turn shades of purple — I think he would probably not notice, and if did cross his mind “hey, I wonder if she’s nursing under that blanket” he wouldn’t think twice about it!
“” can you please give an example of what alternatives there are on the plane? “
As much as I really don’t want to pursue this, as it really just boils down to an opinion, I’m still standing by the restroom venue.”
And here I thought you had a solution that could really help us. I’m disappointed. There is a reason nobody I have asked (and it has come up countless times) uses the restroom to nurse on the plane. Do you want to tell me that your wife has done that?
And I’m with anon for this. Most of my kids have never had bottles, even the ones with a bunch of older siblings. Why do you assume childcare is a given? I work from home and my babies stay with me.
seems like the point that is bothering popa bar aba is not so much the nursing in public, but that some of us have chosen “chumros” that he doesn’t agree with. Whether you agree or not, my ultimate “chumrah” is giving my child the best that i can (and in this case it means the healthiest food available) – if i were to see that my not wearing slits or other things is damaging to my child’s well-being, i will re-evaluate the situation.
’tis obvious that popa doesn’t belong to the “chumrah of the week” club, as the first “chumrah” taught there is not to criticize others “chumros” – you have no idea who we are, where we’re coming from, and why we choose those “chumros”
bpt – maybe you’re right, but not such a simple matter to switch to bottle feeding for baby who is solely nursing.
anyways, i’ve never sat next to strange man on a plane – only my husband, child, or another woman.
our grandmothers mostly bottle-fed – doctors gave poor advice in those days. and if you mean, our great – great -great -, etc. – they didn’t fly on planes or eat in pizza shops. (i guess the next point will be that women shouldn’t do that either, nowadays) 🙂
Jewish “source” (who brings no source material):
Saying it is so does not change Halachic fact, no matter how many times you say it (and wished it to be). Halacha doesn’t follow ones wishes, it follows what Hashem wants.
SJS: I heard you “met” Ittisa elsewhere (a while back). Thank you for the kind words. Ittisa is wise.
“Do you want to tell me that your wife has done that?”
Bli neder, this is the last post I’m making on this thread.
Has she nursed on a plane? No, we travelled with bottles.
Has she nursed in a public bathroom? Yes, the Plaza Hotel, across from Central Park.
Has she ever nursed in public view? Never.
Ok, on to the next topic, shall we?
whatrutalkingabout,
I’m sorry, I’m not going to deprive my child of food because it makes you uncomfortable. Unless you believe bottle feeding should be done in the bathroom too? This has nothing to do with the “busha” of frum women.
Also, formula is made of absolute garbage (read the ingredients, it high fructose corn syrup or corn syrup solids in it!), is expensive, requires bottles (which need to be washed and if you are out for the day that’s not easy). If you want me to pump, that requires a location TO pump (if the baby doesn’t feed, you need to pump instead) and then you have more parts to wash.
So you need to work on acceptance rather than asking women to complicate their lives for your discomfort.
bpt, airplane bathrooms are NOT sanitary and its nearly impossible to find a comfortable nursing position.
I agree 100% with anon for this.
GAW, I did 🙂
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Webster, Dayan, Yeshiva Emek Halacha. His answer is as follows: Many Rabbanim hold that it is not Tzniusdik for a woman to nurse in public. Of course, there are times when one cannot help it, but a mother has to consider that before she leaves her home. She has to do some planning before she takes the baby out. If she must nurse, it must be done in the most Tzniusdik fashion possible. If she is in a store why, she should try to go to the bathroom, or some other secluded place. If it is a store that caters just to women, then it might not be necessary to go into the bathroom. In a more public place, such as a restaurant, it would completely unacceptable to nurse in public. Some women may not care, but really, it is not Tzniusdik. I do not believe it is something our grandmothers ever did. Yes, there is attire available, however, that is because today we have no morals and everything goes. According to this reasoning if society would create attire for a married couple to have marital relations in public, would we than condone it and say that it should be permissible? I do not think so and feel it is the same in this case.
Does anyone have access to Ben Ish Hai online?
Quoted from a blogger (a mother in Israel)
According to the Ben Ish Hai, a rabbi from the late 18th century in Baghdad, while a woman is breastfeeding her exposed breasts are not considered erotic.
Are there any major poskim who have come out with anything? AFAIK, there are no restrictions placed on women in halacha.
Even Rabbi Websters “Many rabbonim” is not really conclusive of anything.
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