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September 6, 2017 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1356179🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“f in fact the speaker determines ”
Which you have to admit is not readily possible with an anonymous audience to meet this criteria.I am actually familiar with what is written inside but I am reading what is in the english version. If he meant that, he unquestionably didn’t state that, which would be a grave error.
Either way, with the condition not met the halacha remains.
September 6, 2017 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1356197☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI was referring to the general halachah, not as it applies here specifically.
September 6, 2017 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1356198☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThere is more han one English version, BTW. In the “A Lesson a Day” email, it says:
“Praise in the Presence of Adversaries
Praising a person in a situation where someone present is likely to temper such praise with criticism is another form of avak loshon hora. It is forbidden to praise in the presence of anyone who is known to dislike him, as it is common for such people to respond by mentioning the person’s shortcomings.
Therefore, it is wrong to praise someone in the presence of a large group of people, since there is a reasonable chance that at least one person in the group dislikes him.
Likewise, it is forbidden to praise a businessman in the presence of his competitors even if they claim to harbor no ill will towards him.
Excessive praise should always be avoided for it can often cause people to respond negatively even when they have no particular dislike for the person being discussed.”
It for some reason skips translating the words of the הגה”ה:
ואם הוא משער שהשומעים לא יגנוהו, כגון שאין מכירים איתו, מותר לשבחו אפילו הרבים.September 6, 2017 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1356206🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant“Therefore, it is wrong to praise someone in the presence of a large group of people, ”
Same again
September 6, 2017 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1356209☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThe difference I noticed were the words “negative response” (“respond negatively” to be precise) as opposed to “negative reaction”.
September 6, 2017 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1356218🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantAh, I see what you are saying but those are both irrelevant in a sense. They are either reasons why it is assur to praise in public or a condition you must meet before being allowed to praise in public. Both, therefore result here in it being assur. Not because I know someone will object, but because the halacha is that you would need to know that they won’t.
September 6, 2017 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1356377☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantOf course, most of the time it would be assur. That’s the main halachah as stated in the מקור החיים. The point I’m making is that there could be an exception. As you said, you would need to know (לשער is the word used) that there won’t be a counter argument.
Now to apply it here, what LU said is not ridiculous, that a moderated forum might be an exception (in other words a case in which one could determine – be משער – that there won’t be a counter argument).
So for example, let’s say someone asked for help about something in the CR, and a poster (let’s call him Stringy) replied with advice and chizuk. I do not think there would be a problem with another poster chiming in that Stringy is a very smart and kind person.
I maintain my objection to lists of posters based on your original point that being left out hurts.
September 6, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1356492Little FroggieParticipantSince I am a Tzaddik of great repute, extremely pious and devout, and nothing bad can be said about me, there should be no חשש of anyone singing my praises…. Humbleness is one of my greatest achievements… Another is my use of time… Seriousness and diligence (intelligence)…
September 6, 2017 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1356846Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant“I maintain my objection to lists of posters based on your original point that being left out hurts.”
DY, that wasn’t SYAG’s point – that was yours and Ubiquitin’s point.
September 6, 2017 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1356845Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantSYAG – Personally, I don’t see a problem with the translation. But if you do, you might want to call the CCHF and discuss it with them. They are very approachable and I am sure they would be happy to discuss it with you.
When I had an issue with a thread in the CR that contained LH, I called them up and asked them to refer me to a Poseik to ask about it. The Poseik I spoke to was extremely helpful and he had me read through the posts on the thread , and he told me which ones were L’H and which weren’t (both mine and the other person’s). If you are really concerned that there is LH on the thread, you might want to do the same.
September 6, 2017 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1356844Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantDY: “LU, I think the two threads are very similar, and that listing a bunch of posters in a positive way (want to meet, praise, etc.) is likely to cause hurt feelings.”
DY, I hear your point on that. I happen to think that there is a difference between the two threads, although I can see why someone might disagree.
But that wasn’t my main point, and that’s not why I was asking for an apology. I hear your “tzad” although I am not sure if I agree. My point was that I explained why I did not do what you and Ubiquitin accused me of doing, and why under the circumstances, I felt that it was necessary to act as a did (davka in order to prevent people from being hurt).
September 6, 2017 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1356851Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant“Personally, I do not think that I would have made that mistake” can give the impression of arrogance and I don’t think any person should be so confident that they don’t make errors even where they least expect it.”
I apologize if you took my words that way – I hesitated before including them, but felt that it was important in order not to imply anything negative about the author of the book quoted. My point was not that I am incapable of misunderstanding something.
My point was that in this case, I had not understood the words that way when you first quoted it, even before I looked it up (although I did make sure to look it up before commenting). I felt it was important to point that out, so that no one would think that I was implying that the book was written in such a way that it can be easily misunderstood.
I was trying my hardest to phrase things in such a way that they would neither be offensive to you nor imply anything negative about the authors of the book quoted.
I do agree that we are all human and that anyone can misunderstand something no matter how well it’s written. That was actually the point that I was trying to make.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify.
September 6, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1356862Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantDY – thank you for bringing and explaining the relevant sources!
September 6, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1356864☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI thought she meant because of hurt feelings. See the next post as well.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/since-im-new-here#post-1353774
I’m not sure what you think I was accusing you of, I agreed with ubiquitin’s reasoning for why it’s a bad idea, not accusing you of anything.
BTW, in searching for Syag’s post, I found your compliment. I thank you.
September 6, 2017 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1356859Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant” it is very easy to misunderstand the exact meaning. In fact, it is almost impossible not to, since there is no such thing as a precise translation.”
“That makes no sense. If that was even remotely true there would be no English translations. They would all be nichshol everyone who reads them. Did the gedolim miss that point when endorsing these volumes? Or was the point to say people who study from the English versions are inferior because they are not REALLY understanding Torah.”
Translations are b’dieved and a horaas sha’ah. If you read the haskamos to halacha sefarim, they are generally written with a lot of reservations. Many halacha sefarim start off by warning the readers not to posken from them, and to look up the sources in the original.
There is nothing wrong with reading a translation or a concise halacha sefer if you understand what its purpose is and is not. I am not familiar with the Sefer you quoted, but it sounds to me as though it is just meant to make people aware of the general halachos.
The people who write these sefarim understand that not everyone will be able to learn the halachos in depth for whatever reason (and there can be many reasons for that), so they want to make sure that people are at least aware of the general principles, so that most of the time they won’t be “nechshol” and so that they will know when to ask.
Again, if you think that there is a problem here, I think it’s a good idea for you to ask a sheilah about it. There are many reasons why I think that is not the case – I mentioned some. However, many of them are things that it is not possible for me to discuss in this forum.
But please keep in mind, as you yourself have mentioned in the past – there are all kinds of Rabbanim in the world, so make sure that you ask the right one. When it comes to Hilchos Loshon Hara, you really need to make sure that you ask someone who is a baki in this particular area and has lots of experience asking sheilahs of this sort.
It is not merely a matter of being a Talmid Chacham and knowing the halachos thoroughly – it also takes a lot of perception and understanding of people. And again, I think that the CCHF can direct you in this matter. (and no, I don’t work for them).
September 6, 2017 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1356907👸Daddysgirl (look at my profile )ParticipantK can we all be friends again? Please?
I dont see a reason this thread should stay openSeptember 6, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1356940YW Moderator-25ModeratorExcellent point
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