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Golfer, she doesn’t exist. That’s why the rhetorical question of “who can find” is asked. It’s a nice ideal, but eishes chayil is a hyperbolic poem, not an accurate reflection of reality now or ever in the past.
DY: I haven’t learned L’ma’aseh of any of this, but does Mechilah even work? Don’t we usually Pasken like R’ Meir that “Kol Hameshaneh… Harei Zu B’ilas Z’nus”? And isn’t R’ Meir L’shitaso that she can’t be Mochel the Shibudim of the K’subah because of Kol Hameshaneh?
I have to look into this.
rockit, nobody is throwing mesorah out the window.
There is a tremendous difference between a positive mesorah– a mesorah that we have always done something in particular at a particular time– and a negative mesorah, or assuring everything under the sun because “there’s no mesorah for that”.
First off the fact soemthing is different then the Mesorah does not automatically diqualify it.
It does mean that you need really, really, really big people who know the entire Torah and have reached the status where they are generally accepted to be Gedolei Yisroel to change it.
In the time when Beis Yackov was started there were many against precisly becuase it was against Mesorah.
Gedolei Yisroel at the time, led by the Chofetz Chaim and the Gerrer Rebbe, approved it as such it was implemented.
I do not see any Gedolei Yisroel of our time approving of this practice.
First off the fact soemthing is different then the Mesorah does not automatically diqualify it.
It does mean that you need really, really, really big people who know the entire Torah and have reached the status where they are generally accepted to be Gedolei Yisroel to change it.
Once I was at the Simchas Beis HaShoeiva of a major Rav( He is considered one of the major Poskim in the USA) and he spoke about this.
The point of his drosha actually was that Halachically it’s not prohibited but as frum Yidden we have a Mesorah and we follow the Mesorah and there was never such aconcept in Judaisim.
In the Chasam Sofer’s words,
‘Chadash Assur Min HaTorah”.
Sounds like (CV) “When there is a rabbinic will, there is a Halachic way”.
Look, we also don’t have a mesorah of women and children showing up to shul in the first place to watch the men dance. In fact, we don’t have a mesorah for “shul” as we know it today. Where’s the stamp of approval from Gedolei Yisroel for that? See what I mean about negative mesorah being meaningless?
‘There’s no “long tradition” of Torah Jews going to college or driving cars or having running water at home. None of that gives a license to change Jewish traditions.’
I need to sell my car and cancel my water and sewer service because it wasn’t part of the Jewish tradition????
“In the time when Beis Yackov was started there were many against precisly becuase it was against Mesorah.”
Actually, it wasn’t. Women were getting Jewish educations in Germany and America under Orthodox rabbinic supervision decades before Sarah Schenirer was born. It just took the rabbis of Eastern Europe a while to get with the program — and to their great credit, they did!
“In the time when Beis Yackov was started there were many against precisly becuase it was against Mesorah.”
I think they were against it because of the large amount of Rabbinic Literature against it. That is not the same as being against something simply because we haven’t done it before.
No part of our Mesorah is meaningless. Negative, positive, or anything in between. But we do have to formulate a clear picture of through which channels we’re receiving our Mesorah, and make sure that those channels are pure and free of contamination.
Having said that, jfem, I see you are taking this very seriously.
Here’s wishing you- whether you’re davening, dancing, or dining in style- beautiful, enjoyable Yamim Tovim, from the first day of Rosh Hashana, through Simchas Torah!
And may 5775 be a year of joy, Nachas, and fulfillment for you & yours!
Actually we do have a Mesorah for shul last I checked its pretty famous that Chanah went to daven in the Beis Hamikdash and it continues till the modern era.
Ever toured Europe?
Most off the Chareidi shuls have an Ezras Nashim.
But no the way modern day feminists approach shul with womens tefilla gatherings has no mesorah and most mainstream Rabbonim do not approve of it.
Thanks, golfer, and the same to you! I no longer have the same radical views on feminism that I did six years ago when I created this account, but the question of what women do on Simchas Torah is one that remains important to me.
What we need to ask ourselves is what is ratzon Hashem. The tachlis of everything is to get close to Hashem. If women dance on the other side of the mechitzah for the simcha of being a yid and for being zocheh to be part of the am hakadosh (and they are the backbone of this am hakadosh!) than it’s kedai. if this is brings them closer to Hashem and makes them feel more of the Simcha- why shouldn’t it be OK?
N… is right. Ratzon Hashem is what matters most. That’s why you should probably ask your Rabbi. He is more qualified to determine what is ratzon Hashem.
Also, we can’t decide what makes us closer to Him, He does.
Modern psychology tells us feelings are never wrong, and Jewish feminist, you are telling Lior that he can’t tell you what to feel. You’re right, he can’t. But Hashem can. I don’t know how that applies to the scenario being discussed.
But feelings can be wrong and you need to be open to that.
(Ex we can’t feel jealous…)
thechoiceismine: Are you sure feelings can be wrong? That was quite a famous Chiddush by R’ Soloveitchik, but I think many hold that the Torah *can’t* dictate feelings.
The Torah can certainly dictate what we must believe. We also know we are told at times to be b’simcha. Apparently feelings can be dictated.
The question of Ratzon Hashem is pretty spot on and it is quite profound however I think the answer cuts deep into our core.
We hold that aman and awoman are really two parts of one whole. We beleive that a marriage is not merely a partnership between one man and one woman.
It is the complete unification of man and woman.
As such the individual accomplishemnts of either of them are attributed to both of them.
This applies especially toa woman.
As in any company in order for success there must be defined roles. A well run company is one in which each person carrys out their role to perfection.
So to a Man and Woman create a family which is a “unit” charged with fulfilling Avodas Hashem. Hashem created each gender differently in order to ensure that biologicaly they are each suited to their roles.
The woman was given the role of being the “bacbone” the support while the man was given the role of action.
Interstingly in Jewish law the one who supports, the enabler is always given more reward then the actual doer and so to by women the Gemorah in Berachos (according to Rashi) states that they actually recieve more reward then men for enabling the learning of thier husbands.
Simchas Torah is not a celebration of Judaisim. It is a Siyum Hatorah. A siyum on the completion of the learnign of the Torah and the begining anew. When the men celebrate that is what hey are celebrating.
They are celebrating the completion of a year of them doing their Jobs.
A woman observing and watching Men celebrate what they have done, in essence watching the celebration of the completion of a task they have enabled.
Whjy would a woman want to be the one dancing and doing the actual completing of the Torah?
If one wants to do the “ratzon hashem then God has made his Ratzon clear by creating Men and Women differntly.
When women “switch” sides so they are the ones celebrating the Torah they are essentially declaring their desire to do that which God has said is not wanted.
It is not Ratzon hashem they are seeking to fulfill. It is Ratzonom that they are seeking to fulfill.
God wants women to be women not men,.
Lior: Nope. The Gemara defines Simcha as Basar, Yayin, nice clothes, etc. Not an emotional state.
Can I be sad and cry on Shabbos and Yom Tov or should I keep my emotions in check despite if my natural inclination to be sad?
Sam,
There are negative feelings and positive feelings. (ex: NOT to hate ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? and to love ????? ?? ? ) That the Torah can command us not to have certain feelings is clear.
It’s definitely within human capability to control negative feelings using certain techniques.
Commanding someone to have positive feelings seems to be a chiddush and I believe the question is asked when we are commanded to love Hashem.
The answer is that we really DO love Hashem. The commandment is to peel away the layers and to get in touch with our true feelings.
I do not know what you are referring to with Rabbi Soloveitchik.
Simcha613
The way the question was asked by the OP it was women who are “dedicated” to talmud torah and want to celebrate their own talmud torah not the accomplishments they enabled.
Poll: How many of the male posters here learn Torah on a regular basis? And how many of you consider the experience of hearing the parsha read in shul to be a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning? Additionally, if you learn the parsha on your own during the week, is that a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning?
“How many of the male posters here learn Torah on a regular basis? “
I do. I attend daf yomi almost every morning and I also am learning Nach Yomi. I also attend occasional other shiurim and pick up other sefarim from time to time (including completing four tractates of Yerushalmi to date not part of daf yomi).
“And how many of you consider the experience of hearing the parsha read in shul to be a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning? “
Yes, hearing it with the trope is important, especially since I’ve never gotten around to learning the trope on my own.
“Additionally, if you learn the parsha on your own during the week, is that a significant portion of your weekly Torah learning?”
Absolutely.
“While I agree that women are the backbone of their husbands learning, that doesn’t mean they can’t learn, especially women who are not married. “
My wife has learned three tractates of the Bavli — AFTER we got married — and a lot of other material as well.
‘When women “switch” sides so they are the ones celebrating the Torah they are essentially declaring their desire to do that which God has said is not wanted.’
If God really didn’t want women to dance with a Torah scroll, He would have said so.
“Any communal change that doesn’t have this motivation, as noble and legitimate as the motivation may be, by definition is changing our Judaims from a more authentic version.”
Indeed the authentic version of Judaism is that women are not prohibited from dancing with a sefer Torah.
A more interesting question is why the things even MEN do on Simchat Torah are permitted — it was a change from the “more authentic version”, significant changes in normative practice (>5 aliyot on YT, leining at night, delaying the leining until after dancing, birkat kohanim at Shacharit and not at Musaf….), not ordained by any gedol or beit din, and something that spread from the bottom up in the diaspora. But Judaism survived that change. (And it will even survive Maharats!)
Gmar chatima tova!
Who and how will enforce that only the tahor dance with it? And how about the immodesty of publicising who is tahor and who is not?
B’zman hazeh everyone is tamay, even the men, so the question is irrelevant.
Every man is tamay niddah?
Lior: There is nothing inherently immodest about knowing when a woman is a Niddah or not. Bizman HaGemara, everyone knew. You had to to properly be Makpid on Taharos. Nowadays, when the only Nafka Minah is a Tznius issue, so it seems immodest. But if we create Taharos issues again (as you just did) then there should be anything wrong with it.
As I said earlier, though, this really isn’t so relevant as many Achronim have said that we are not Noheg like this Chumra and have already been Doche it.
jf02: As squeak alluded, men are not subjected to the type of tumah that is relevant in this case.
Sam: Many poskim, especially among Ashkenazim such as the Rema who says we ARE noheg against it for the reason squeak mentioned, do rule against it.
Lior: You’re wrong in your response to jf, on many levels. Pashtus is the Rama applies to any Tumah HaYotzei Alav MiGufo. And it’s nice for you to make up that many Poskim rule this way L’ma’aseh, but it’s irrelevant. Just because you have a Chumra (and it has solid backing) doesn’t mean that everyone has to be subject to it, especially when they have even more solid backing to not be Noheg it. So if a community wants to be Noheg not like this Chumra, coming out here and saying, “But what about this Psak of the Rama” doesn’t change anything.
You’re incorrect in both your assumptions and logical reasoning. But more to the point, using your own argument if a community is noheg against it per the psak with solid backing that they follow, no one can challenge them for prohibiting women from holding the Torah – as jf02 did reasoning it makes her “uncomfortable”.
Actually, Sam2 is correct, and Lior is building a straw man. Whether or not Lior’s community holds by that chumrah, its stringency as it relates to his community has no bearing on jfem02’s question, since this is something that differs by community, aka, minhag. So strongly asserting that jfem02’s community might possibly be noheg is useless; jfem02 simply has to contact her LOR and ask what is the minhag of her community. End of story.
Lior: First of all, she was assuming the only issue was that the men would feel “uncomfortable”. She had a valid Ta’anah to that. She wasn’t aware of this Rama. That’s not a crime. Presumably a woman that cares so much about this issue will make sure to be part of a community that is not Machmir for this Rama, which is most non-Chassidish communities out there.
A tiny minority of non-Chasidish Kehilos, Beis HaKeneses’ and Beis Medrashes allow women to touch the Torah on S”T.
You have no idea to which you refer to. The metzius is clearly an extremely few Orthodox congregations allow women to dance with the Torah. It is virtually unanimous in the Chareidi world and even most of the Modern Orthodox follow Rabbi Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik’s opposition to women holding the Torah.
Lior: You can make up Metzius (and misuse apostrophes) as much as you want, but the fact is that a large Rov of Achronim and most Kehillos are Noheg against this Rama.
Somehow my response to your last comment got posted before yours. (Perhaps it’ll be fixed.)
DY: I haven’t learned L’ma’aseh of any of this, but does Mechilah even work? Don’t we usually Pasken like R’ Meir…
There’s still a kesubah in it’s full form here, just she’s mochel on the day to day fulfillment of his shibudim, and can at any time insist that he begins fulfilling them.
DY: So she’s not Mocheles. She’s a quasi-Mocheles. That shouldn’t exist. I mean, it obviously does. It just means that he is not living up to his promise with the understanding that she won’t sue him for it.
Lior: You’re changing discussions again. There are other, non-Halachic issues that must be dealt with for dancing with a Torah on Simchas Torah. We are discussing the Halachic issue of the Chumra prohibiting a woman from looking at or touching a Torah while she’s a Niddah. Most Achronim reject this Chumra and the vast majority of Kehilos are Noheg not like it. You’re conflating cases in an attempt to distort the discussion.
To go slightly off topic here-
One thing that I’ve always found troubling (setting aside the whole issue of women dancing with the Torah and whether or not it’s permitted) is that Simchas Torah seems to be a non-event for women in general. I know that in my shul it’s dead as a doornail. A couple women come and socialize. Even fewer girls come and socialize. I come and give out candy. The kids come and eat candy. I don’t see why women, as jfem says, can’t also derive joy from the Torah, celebrate, maybe do our own dancing- even without a sefer Torah- and just elevate it for us beyond just a reason why we can’t start lunch until really late in the afternoon.
I dunno where you associate, but everywhere I’ve been to the Ezras Noshim is packed with women and girls joyously watching and wonderfully observing the great joy permeating throughout the shul with all the dancing with the Torah and joyous singing.
Do you feel left out when going to a concert unless you can get onstage with the singer or do a duo with him?
Yes, I do feel left out when all the men are dancing. All the women do is talk, watch their kids (if they are married), talk some more, and maybe eat something. I would love it if there was some sort of program for women in shul. I started simply staying home because I wasn’t interested in going to watch the men dance in a circle (not to mention the random drunk men/boys that wander in and out)
“Do you feel left out when going to a concert unless you can get onstage with the singer or do a duo with him?”
No because I enjoy watching and hearing the concert itself. Whereas I don’t enjoy watching a bunch of men dancing around in circles for three hours. Probably most people are like that – many people pay to go to concerts, yet have you ever heard of someone paying to watch a simchas torah style performance? Additionally, it definitely would make the concert more enjoyable if I could get onstage (assuming I wanted to do), and all the more so if half the audience was onstage.
“No because I enjoy watching and hearing the concert itself. Whereas I don’t enjoy watching a bunch of men dancing around in circles for three hours.”
And herein lies the problem. Like I advised someone earlier (despite subsequent protestations) “You should train yourself, even if it is difficult, to enjoy and treasure the day watching the menfolk dancing joyously with the Torah.”
If you enjoy it at a concert you certainly should enjoy it for the Torah.
“If you enjoy it at a concert you certainly should enjoy it for the Torah.”
If it was the same thing then yes. But watching/listening to a professional performer is a far cry from what happens on Simchas Torah. A concert is inherently enjoyable (unless you don’t like concerts). Maybe for some people, watching others going around in circles is enjoyable. Not for me and not for many others – certainly not for hours on end. The fact that they hold a Torah while doing so doesn’t make it more or less enjoyable. It just defines what they are running around in circles for. If some group decided to celebrate simchas torah by twiddling their thumbs do you think that people should enjoy watching it simply because they are twiddling their thumbs in celebration of the Torah?
“You should train yourself, even if it is difficult, to enjoy and treasure the day watching the menfolk dancing joyously with the Torah.”
There are many things a person can train himself to do, why should they do this? Perhaps there is a better solution to enhance a woman’s joy on simchas torah then to force her to like something she does not. As long as the solution is halachically okay, why can’t our communities come up with a way to beautify the yom tov for both men and women?
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