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Hi there:) I noticed that the takanos that were issued by the Rabbanim are not really taking place. The vort is not omitted and the L’chaim is not the only thing that takes place to announce the engagement. Are Simchos toned down? What do you think?
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The Rabbonim wrote “except for extenuating circumstances”, but it did take the teeth out of it. However, it gives some people an excuse not to
overextend themselves. I think one man bands have become more popular than before the takanos.
IMHO the reason 1 man bands have become more popular is because the quality of their music has improved over the past 10 years.
The problem was that there were too many clauses, impossible to enforce.
IMHO the reason 1 man bands have become more popular is because the quality of their music has improved over the past 10 years.
I think they’re both true.
The caterers, photographers, music guys, florists, etc. are greatly relieved. They felt their parnassah was under assault.
People should have the common sense to only spend what they can afford. Those who can afford to knock people’s eyes out should have the common sense to show restraint.
The takanos failed because the Rabbonim didn’t follow up on it.
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The one takonoh I would like to see enforced is a maximum # of people invited (say 300). Not seats, not meals. Invitations printed. If I don’t know about it, I don’t need to come.
That way, I could be “excused” for not going to my cousin’s daughter’s son’s vort / wedding.
Not that I have anything against my cousin, his daughter or the chosson, but that level of relative (plus the 50+ invitations I get frommass mailings) opens me up to 100’s of weddings a year, and opens the mechutonim to 100s of $ in food “for the just in case” people that might show up.
It would also cut down the “Jones” competetion, which sad to admit is very much alive and kicking in our world
bpt,
In theory, I agree, but the number of guests is, if anything, the hardest to enforce. Some people have large families.
I personally don’t go to many chasunas because of my schedule. I think a great solution would be for all the men to have an iron clad seder at night, and politely respond no with the very valid excuse that you have a vital prior commitment.
“The one takonoh I would like to see enforced is a maximum # of people invited (say 300)”
I think (in my limited understanding) that thats where they went wrong. They said that a Rebbi can invite more than the allotted (200 per side?) because he knows more people.
What of someone who comes from a family of 10, is the youngest, whose parent is 1 of 8? Do you know how big these weddings are just from immediate family alone?
What of someone who has a special needs child that feels tremendous gratitude to the community and invites EVERYONE they know to the siblings wedding as a way of showing Hakaras HaTov for all theyve done for the special needs sibling?
What of someone who is an only child and this is the ONLY wedding the parents are going to make so they go all out?
I have been to all these weddings. Once you limit something like guests you lose most of the audience.
I would like to point out that the takanos did allow for exceptions for exceptional situations. That includes all of Sacrilege’s stories, and even includes one of the undersigned Rabbonim attending the simcha of someone who helps in klal inyonim, or even that Rov’s own mossad.
The problem was that it watered the whole thing down to nothing more than a suggestion.
Would people feel bad if they were just invited for the dancing? Lets say, someone with an extended large family?
By the chasiddim, they invite people for simchas choson v’kallah,
They put out some kugel and stuff and everyone’s happy. Because if someone davens in Bobov, for example, where there are weddings all the time, and hundreds of people daven there, it works out much better this way
I’ve been to many of the “special” circumstances weddings you listed, but have been to MANY more where the hall was filled with 2nd cousins, just because people feel lame making a wedding for “only” 200-300 people.
My barometer? The “contact list” in my phone / e-mail. If I’m not staying in touch with you on a regular basis, I’m not sending (read: obligating) you an invitation.
And believe me, no one stays in touch with 600 people. Yet I know people that mail out 700+ invitations. What for?
“And believe me, no one stays in touch with 600 people. Yet I know people that mail out 700+ invitations. What for?”
Beats me. I’m good w eloping.
I always find it amusing how things are looked at.
By my wedding, we had somewhere between 190 and 200 people. When I mention it to someone frum, they comment that I had a small wedding. When I mention it to someone non-Jewish, they marvel at the big wedding I had. 🙂
The Wolf
Sorry for being naive–but which takanah by which rabbonim, when?
i wonder what a typical size for a non-Jewish wedding is.
Mod-80: Generally, having over 100 people is considered very big by non-Jewish standards.
“175 guests are invited to an average wedding”
i found that on this website: “National Association of Wedding Ministers Wedding Statistics”
that says invited, not actually present
The takanos were never meant to be serious for everyone, they were meant to be an excuse. Those who want to use it can do so, and as such it did work.
“Beats me. I’m good w eloping.”
that would work for eclipse because shes a watermelon not a canteloupe
I disagree, I see much more takana weddings then their used to be. But probably only in the Chassidisher world.They have even come up with Takana Halls, and those that are open previously are offerring Takana packages. I’ve made one Takana wedding and the only problem I had with the package was the photographer, nothing was included.
” I’m good w eloping. “
Just tell me when and where. I was zoiche to see a chuppa set up in the yard of the Sefardishe Shul on 14th / 44 (back in th 70s) and would not be opposed to going to another wedding just like that.
The more remote the location, the better.
“175 guests are invited to an average wedding”
I have several non-Jewish co-workers, and they have made weddings (theirs or kids) of this scale.
But the total bill (limos, flowers, pre-dinners, affair in a country club) can easily reach %40,000
I hope no one is upset by these ideas; some are not my own and the ones that are were just theoretical thoughts, not a critique, CH”V on anyone or anything.
I once heard someone suggest that (other than a family wedding) only the spouse who is friends with the chassan or kallah should be invited and attend, as opposed to automatically inviting the other spouse, too.
Alternatively, perhaps, I wonder if a viable and more economical alternative to the current system is to make each sheva brachos, including the wedding itself, into a “mini-wedding” so that the overall cost would go down tremendously. Meaning, say immediate family and a few Rabbanim and very close friends at the actual wedding (seudah) and then one sheva brachos per “segment” of everyone else (chosson/kallah’s friends, parents’ friends, etc.)
This way, you could also book at least 3 weddings per night per hall, which should give the hall the same parnassa but cut the cost by a 1/3rd or more.
I don’t know the numbers, but I wonder is that “7-day wedding” would make the whole thing more meaningful for everyone; the chosson and kallah get to focus on one group each night, and the joy of the wedding would get extended to the entire 7 days.
I certainly have not “thought this through” and don’t claim it is a solid idea, but I am curious if anyone else has ever thought along these lines and if anyone has any other thoughts on why it would or would never work.
As the gemara states, when takanos are issued, the Rabbonim wait to see if they can be adhered to by k’lall yisroel. It is very difficult for k’lall yisroel to change their character all at once, nor does chazal expect them to, since as the mussser s’farim advise us, change doesn’t work unless it takes place a little at a time.
Once the takanos have evolved and have been accepted and followed, they become part of the minhagim which bring us closer to Hashem. However, while the takanos may be too difficult to follow at first, the message is not lost by frum Yiden.
“Just tell me when and where.”
City Hall?
you could also book at least 3 weddings per night per hall, which should give the hall the same parnassa but cut the cost by a 1/3rd or more.
Same parnassa (income) at 1/3 of the cost? If you can tell me how that’s possible, I have a job opening for you on the White House budgetary committee.
“City Hall?”
You and hubby can take care of the paperwork during sheva brachos.
As for the ceremony, I was thinking along the lines of Prospect Park, or the Bklyn Botanical Garden (I think Wednesdays are free admission to the Garden)
No doubt one of the dates were there, so its got sentimental value.
OTOH, I hear Ateres Avrohom has a killer shmorg!
I once heard someone suggest that (other than a family wedding) only the spouse who is friends with the chassan or kallah should be invited and attend, as opposed to automatically inviting the other spouse, too.
I disagree with this. Proper etiquette is that if you are inviting a married person, you invite the spouse as well*. The other spouse doesn’t have to attend, of course, but it is only proper to invite them.
The Wolf
* Barring unusual circumstances, of course — such as a technically still-married person in the midst of getting a divorce.
This way, you could also book at least 3 weddings per night per hall, which should give the hall the same parnassa but cut the cost by a 1/3rd or more.
You would need to also triple the amount of people getting married, in order to fill up the other nights.
You and hubby can take care of the paperwork during sheva brachos.
Why not take care of it beforehand?
As for the ceremony, I was thinking along the lines of Prospect Park, or the Bklyn Botanical Garden (I think Wednesdays are free admission to the Garden)
Tuesdays are free admission days at the BBG year-round.
While admission to the BBG may be free, having a wedding there is not. The fee to have the ceremony (with 50 guests) is $425.00. The ceremony must be held outdoors — rain or shine and there is no seating available. Lastly, music is limited to soft small hand-held music.
The Wolf
The other spouse doesn’t have to attend, of course, but it is only proper to invite them.
I agree. I’ll even take it a step further; when anyone receives an invitation, be grateful that they thought of you, and seriously consider whether or not your presence is really worth your time and their money.
wolfish
you can only complete the marriage paperwork AFTER the ceremony.
“What of someone who comes from a family of 10?”
Ok, lets crunch some numbers:
Chosson = 1
Parents = 2
Grandparents (biz 120) = 4
Aunts / Uncles, father’s side, (all married) = 20 ppl
Aunts / Uncles, mother’s side, (all married) = 20 ppl
Cousins, father’s side, (some married) = 60/100 ppl <Average 80>
Cousins, mother’s side, (some married) = 60/100 ppl <Average 80>
Chosson’s married sibling = (all married) = 20 ppl
Chosson’s nieces / nephews = some married 60/100 ppl <Average 80>
Chosson friends (yeshiva, shul and camp) = 50 ppl
grand total = 357 (just a coincidence). Kallah has the same, so that’s a cool 700+ people.
But the reality is, in a family that size, cousins and neices / nephews come for 5 minutes (if at all) and rarely will the spouse come, as they likey have the same size family to deal with.
So knock the 80 x 3 down to 20 people total (selected at random, or whoever you’re close with) and you’ve got 137 ppl / double that for the kallah and you’re at 274.
That leaves 26 ppl for parents neighbors, shul freinds, country friends, etc.
Besides, if you have 700 people at your wedding,and the workable hours at the wedding are max 3 hours, that means you can only spend 15 seconds with each guest. And if your macheteneste corners you for 10 mintues so she can introduce you to her 20 best freinds, someone else is gettting ignored.
And I’m going to shlepp to Lakewood (4 hours r.t. including the meal) for a whopping 15 seconds of your attention? Thanks, but no thanks.
So yes, I really think 150 people per side is doable. (And spend a whopping full minute with each of your guests, but hopefully, they’ll understand)
If you want to, you can do it. With or without a takonoh.
wolfish
you can only complete the marriage paperwork AFTER the ceremony.
You can have a separate civil ceremony before.
BTW, what’s a wolfish, a canid that swims?
“I hear Ateres Avrohom has a killer shmorg!”
Remember ELOPING. Chosson, Me and Elvis ze hoo.
However, if we were going the elaborate route I think I am more of a Terrace/Marina girl vs. AA 😉
I wanted to have a small ceremony in a shul in Venice. It would have been a fraction of the cost, but I was denied.
Wolf, if its seperate seating, we usually decline (the spouse who isn’t friends). Sometimes we decline with mixed seating because its just too expensive and annoying to get a babysitter.
Honestly, I think people have to start self policing. It doesn’t matter if your friend has 16,000 people at her wedding and got 47 karats of diamonds. get what you can afford, takanos or no takonos.
Wolf, if its seperate seating, we usually decline (the spouse who isn’t friends). Sometimes we decline with mixed seating because its just too expensive and annoying to get a babysitter.
I understand that. Nonetheless, the invitation should be issued to both spouses. If one doesn’t want to come because they won’t know anyone, that’s up to them.
The Wolf
“fee to have the ceremony … is $425.00.”
$425?? The cherry blossom canopy is nice and all, but $425?
OK, Prospect Park it is. Concert Grove for the chuppah, over to the bridge that overlooks the Boathouse for pics, then on to the Library plaza for the meal (its BYOB, natch.)
Terrace? And look at the cemetary?
The Marina is a much better choice. And who is Elvis? (don’t tell me you mean the guy in the white jumpsuit?)
I’m thinking flashmob chuppa in times square.
“And who is Elvis? (don’t tell me you mean the guy in the white jumpsuit?)”
Its not a proper elopement if The King doesnt marry you.
My civil ceremony was in Vegas. We wore Hawaiin gear.
“Its not a proper elopement if The King doesnt marry you.”
Hurry.. he was just spotted in asile 2
One of my favorite movie quotes:
“No, Elvis is not dead. He just went home.”
The Wolf
??? ?????? …
Itche –
That was outta line.
C’mon, it’s all in the family.
Besides, it helped me make a point that has nothing to do with Simcha Takanos, Elvis, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe zy”a.
“all in the family.”
Except that some of us are PART of that family.
OK, we move on.
Did you ever see one of the Gedolim that signed on the takonos NOT go to a wedding because the takonos were not adhered to?
That’s why the takonos never worked out.
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