Sign Of The Times?(!)

Jothar, I think there is more to be said with other non-verbal communication than clothing. I learnt this lesson at a chess tournament. This gangsta-hood looking guy asked me to play a game. Over the game, I discovered he was a master and smart and funny…he just looked like you would find him in the middle of Harlem dealing drugs…that was a big lesson to me.

Now, not all clothing queues should be ignored. I was once on the A train and had to switch at 145th St. It was summer and everyone was dressed in light clothing. Except for a big black guy wearing a winter coat. I was terrified of what was under his coat, and at some point I saw a glint of metal when he moved. I jumped on the next train even though it wasn’t the one I needed. There was NO need for me to risk being in a shootout of some kind. Or his next victim.

Cantoreaq, how is a passuk, stating that clothing affects the way you are perceived, a red herring? It’s EXACTLY the point. If you dress like a clown, you’re not taken seriously.

Cantoresq, I was speaking in a literal sense. I should have made that clearer. Clowns dress like clowns because the red nose, makeup and rainbow hair sends a message “Laugh at me”. Half the work is done by the clothing. I used to chasunah shtick. just putting on the funny clothing makes people give you a big smile, without my having to do anything. The clothing sent a nonverbal message “Laugh”, and many did. Then when I actually attempted some humor, I had them rolling. So too, people expect someone giving a Torah lecture on Shabbos to be dressed in away that honors Shabbos, honors the Torah and honors the speaker. When you dress in a way that is less than that, you send a nonverbal message that you are dishonoring the communal standard for Shabbos and Torah. If that is the message you are sending, then people will automatically tune out what you are saying.

after reading most of these posts it seems that people are saying that “one should at least wear a ben torah uniform” (adapted quote) but what exactly defines a ben torah uniform? (i.e. what really is the minimum to be considered the uniform-i am a biber and rek’l type but that is not my minimum (it is: at least a respectable button down shirt dark slacks and depending if you are “modern orthodox” or not a hat and jacket)

“chitzonius may affect pnimius, but that’s irrlevant(sic)”

let me make it a little clearer to you

chitzonius affects pinimius, right?

when you perform a function, that being police duties, being interviewed for a job, speaking to a group, or giving a shiur, then how you perform that function (the pinimius which is expressed at that time) is partly influenced by the chitzonius.your pinimius primarily determines your behavior as well as your words

if you still dont understand well, ask someone.

“your post speaks to bias and prejudice”

i would hope so

since competing elements in a scenario are not equal, bias is a critical component of sound human reasoned analysis (unless you are a computer)

prejudice which means to prejudge is also a critical component of wisdom

if you do not already have some idea of what to expect in a situation composed at least partly of familiar components, then you are a fool

if you dont understand the psychologic nature of humans you will be a fool

if you dont listen to Chazal you will be a fool

if you havent taken the time to discover the deep and mystical roots of Judaism then you will act by rote and habit and be worse than a fool.

and if you wish to condemn me again, it would be only proper to do so in terms of Yiddishe ideas not the platitudes of western liberal goyish thought.

cantoresq

i looked over my post

im not really particularly interested in pursuing this

but you have piqued my curiosity.

i would appreciate, for my own education, if you will point out the bias, prejudice, intellectual dishonesty, and pandering (not sure what that one means) in my previous post.

People follow their biases (real or not) when they act. We recognize this to aid the learning/business process. If one shows up in a T shirt & jeans to the court, they will not be taken seriously by the judge (any dress codes aside). Showing up to give a shiur as such may have the attendees believing, however much incorrectly, that the material is not “on the level” or the one giving the shiur is not qualified (similar to the judge, or the boss who has the prospective employee show up in shorts).

WE may claim we are not biased, and for you it may even be true, but those who are listening are.

(This is all just to illustrate the point, not to argue one side or the other)

SJSinNYC:

Well put, but its not your standards, but the standards of those who are attending as well. If i wanted to give a shiur in KJ (just as an example), a suit, white shirt & tie would be still be underdressed.

Perhaps where cantoresq is it is normal for someone giving a shiur to wear clothing as such, so who are we to judge on that point?