Showers in the 9 days

So DY maybe we can learn Halacha later today and see if we can change some Ikrim. First though we have to divine what Hashem says the Halacha is directly, because the Torah doesn’t really tell us.

Let’s make sure to ignore the Mesorah and decide the Halacha according to our feelings. Why we can even change this whole religion

That is what you are trying to do, right?

Showers did not really exist until about 100-150 years ago. There is no mesorah about Showers

rabbiofberlin-

That’s ridiculous!

Annon: By the way, the reason that bathing is Assur isn’t in order that you feel dirty; it’s because bathing itself is enjoyable.

??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????, ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???’, ???? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????… ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?’?

It is worth looking at the footnotes in R’ Simcha Bunim Cohen’s sefer on the Three Weeks (pg. 91) where he brings b’shem R’ Shach that we don’t find an avel looking for a heter to wash, and R’ Cohen asserts that he means like R’ Shlomo Zalman, and that therefore, the question someone asked on R’ Shach (similar to Sam) that we don’t pasken from emotion, is “???? ????”.

mdd: I didn’t see your question until now. But I’m not sure I understand it. Even great people can be mistaken. That happens.

Sam2, in the Gemorah in Sukka R’Tarfon held a very machmiring shita about chadassim. Rova said about it:”May his Master forgive him…”. Rashi explains there that he is too machmir and burdens the Yidden. In the Rabbi Akiva Gemorah one of the Tannoim says:”Let us come and scream at Akiva ben Yosef for he is marbe mamzeirm be’Yisroel <with his machmiring shita>”. According to you, what in the world is going on — they learnt the sugya and this is what they held?

Sam: What is your source that Rava was wrong about R’ Tarfon and the Tanna was wrong about R’ Akiva in criticizing R’ Tarfon and R’ Akiva for ever expressing their shitta?

Joseph: I’m confused. How am I saying Rava is wrong? Rava presumably had the authority to say R’ Tarfon erred. I don’t have the authority to say anyone erred (or, at least, any Tanna or Amora; I say you’re wrong all the time 😛 ).

mdd: R’ Tarfon was wrong for two reasons, presumably. #1 is that he did not have the correct Halachah; if he did then the discussion cannot happen. #2 is that, on top of that, his special Chumra is not worth saying because the Hefsed far outweighs the gain.

R’ Akiva is another story entirely. I point out that there are lots of statements from the Tannaim that seem mean to R’ Akiva. I’ve never had a great Pshat why, though I have some theories. In this particular instance, though, I would repeat the same two-step process. R’ Yesheivav (I think) is saying R’ Akiva got the Limmud wrong to begin with. That being a given, we then say that R’ Akiva’s Shittah should be strongly decried because the outcome is so bad that it shouldn’t even be said. Meaning, usually you can just argue with a wrong Shittah and we trust that the right Shittah wins. Here, we have to strongly reject the wrong Shittos so that no one will ever think it’s correct because the outcome of those wrong Shittos are so horrible.

mdd: Well, this will all boil down to whether you assume like the Rambam or Geonim in the Hishtalsh’lus of Torah Sheba’al Peh. You are assuming like the Rambam. If my assumption is the Geonim (which I thought Rashi usually follows so this will be interesting; I’ll have to be M’ayein more) what you are saying is untenable.

It is openly stated that R’Tarfon needed forgivness for holding like he held and it was not because of negligence in remembering or deducing the right Halochah. I understand it goes against your basic assumptions, but just admit those were wrong.

mdd: What you are saying does not make any sense. If their Limmud was right, then they got the right Halachah. According to the Geonim, that’s all there is to it. If we get into the Rambam it will be a bit different. Then I could hear the claim that the Limmud was wrong *because* it came from a wrong outlook.

And how was this relevant to this thread anyway?

mdd: I know those Gemaras. The Rambam and the Geonim knew those Gemaras. Claiming that the Drasha is invalid because of their Hahkafa is absurd. Who are you (or who is anyone) to destroy a Halachah because you don’t like the Hashkafa behind it? That thought belongs right in line with those who say to let gays marry because the Hashkafa of stopping them from doing it is wrong.

mdd: I have no idea why you are having such trouble with what I am saying. Rava said R’ Tarfon was wrong. I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation why, which is not far from what you said in the first place.

And again, how is this relevant to this thread? Are you trying to get me to say that I think R’ Shlomo Zalman made a Hashkafic mistake? Sorry, no dice. Won’t happen.

mdd: I am not ignoring what the Gemaras are saying. I explained what the Gemaras are saying. You are trying to teach a general Torah principle that… what? Gedolim can make mistakes? I agreed with that already. All you wrote was this Gemara proves something and then have gone on to repeat that I’m not reading the Gemaras. Well, I am reading the Gemaras and my explanation basically agreed with you. I really have zero idea what you’re driving at right now.

Joseph: Of course not every Hashkafa is acceptable. When or where have I ever claimed otherwise? I started this whole thing by saying that a poster’s Hashkafa was unacceptable.

Sam2, the point is that when a Talmid Chohom approaches a shailah he can say a svorah this way or another way. What he should bear in mind when choosing a direction is what is the right direction to try to go in hashkofically: is this right or wrong, nice or not nice.

Sam2, stop it already. If something is open and mefurash — yes. That’s why i wrote that you are partially right, Sometimes, however, it is a new sugya and a big Talmid Chohom can go in a number of ways. Learnt Tosfos ever?

I am under the impression (and it’s only my impression) that Sam is operating under the (probably subconscious, though he might deny it) derech that the Torah is fixed and immutable both in Shamayim and b eretz, and the Chochomim seek to understand it, to bring it down so to speak.

Whereas mdd seems to hold that the Torah is alive and comes to concretion through the processing,the Daas, the Holy Neshamos, of the Chochomim

So do you think maybe this foundational difference in outlook is why you and mdd are unable to see “eye to eye”?

Sam2, let me elaborate. Let’s say there is a stirah between two sugyos. Ba’alei ha’Tosfos come and offer, say, 4 svoros-terutzim to reconcile the sugyos. The ta’anah on those Tanoim was that they should not have offered those terutzim that they had offered — for hashkofic reasons. It is abundantly clear if onr is willing to see.

Sam2, when the limud is wrong, there is nothing to talk about. The whole concept applies when there is a number of ways to go.

THERE IS NO INDICATION whatsoever that R’Tarfon’s limud was wrong! It’s regular shita of a Tanna — just we pasken like R’Akiva and not like him. The only ta’anah was that he should have found a way to be more meikal.

It is no stirah to the shittah of the Geonim!!! A Chohom may try to restore the real halochah, but he may go down the wrong path! Part of the right way to restore is to take into account what I am saying.

When Rishonim or Achronim answer a stirah between two sugyos, they make an educated conjecture trying to restore the real halochah. The point is that some conjectures should not be made because they are not nice. What is so difficult to accept?!?