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Can the man that stands next to me in shul and absolutely stinks have a shower. We don’t all have to suffer for your aveilus.
Gadol Kavod HaBriyos
Ohhh. I’m SOOOO sorry. I didn’t realize it would bother you.. I’m running to the sho<<YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO>>
yes i use right guard but what about my left armpit?
LF: Incorrect. In cases where it would bother people it is Muttar to shower. This is brought down in almost all contemporary Poskim and is a famous humorous discussion between R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shlomo Zalman.
During the summer months, I can easily shower three times a day. I shower in the nine days–as little as possible, and I have far shorter showers than usual, and only cold-lukewarm. I simply can’t go without it, I feel far too gross.
Sam: What is this “famous” discussion between R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shlomo Zalman?
Many contemporary Poskim allow showers today including Rav Kaminetsky , Rav Wosner and Rav Ovadiah Yosef.
It is not a kiddish Hashem when you are riding the subway and you smell worse than the homeless bum who is sleeping there.
Joseph: There was a conversation via an intermediary (I heard this directly from the intermediary) where he presented each other’s Tzdadim. Basically, R’ Dovid was shocked that Israelis can think it’s okay to go a full week in the summer heat without bathing. R’ Shlomo Zalman, on the other hand, was shocked that Americans are so Mefunak that they cannot survive a week without showering.
zahavasdad – is there source material for those poskim? would like to see it in print.
Similar to the concept of shallishudis, I start my shower before the 9 days and never stop until tisha bav is over. Whenever I need to go somewhere I take the shower with me so there is no hefsek. I’ve gotten a few funny looks over the years doing this, but nothing compared to the looks folks who haven’t showered in a week get.
Not sure if Mods will allow a link from Ohr Samach Website
Its footnoted where the halachas come from
It is not a kiddish Hashem when you are riding the subway and you smell worse than the homeless bum who is sleeping there.
If you sit right next to him, everyone will think it’s him and there’s no issue.
Rav Moshe says it’s okay to shower if you’re hot and sweaty. here is his lashon from igros moshe even haezer 4:84–
????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????
????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ?????, ???? ?? ????.
This wasn’t rav moshe’s chiddush; the aruch hashulchan (orach chaim 551:37) says the same thing. Chazon Ish is machmir not to shower at all, though. so you are allowed to shower, if your minhag is to hold like r’ moshe, and not the Chazon Ish.
None of the sources you mentioned are footnoted, although they, and others, are mentioned.
You also neglected to mention the important conditions and qualifications.
I never said Rav Shlomo Auerbach permitted it. The aritcle also says the Chazon Ish was strict about prohibited it and I can see how Rav Shlomo would not want to really go against the Chazon Ish.
I never said Rav Shlomo Auerbach permitted it.
The article you got your information from did, yet also severely qualified the heter.
Your earlier post sounds like a blanket heter, yet the article from which you drew the heter clearly says it’s not. To quote:
One should take a quick shower in water as cold as one can tolerate (preferably cold and not even lukewarm).
It is preferable to wash one limb at a time and not the whole body at once. (This is where an extendable shower head comes in handy). If only one area is dirty, one should only wash that area of the body.
If your odour is bothering people just shower, for goodness sake.
This restriction only works when everyone around you is also doing it.
DC MUTU: It’s not just the shower. If the cloths reek and he’s wearing the same shirt every day, all the showers in the world won’t help.
If you only have 1 shirt, you can wash it during the 9 days. That’s in the Gemara.
Most people have enough clothes to survive 9 days without washing. However this doesnt mean one should deliberately go on the subway with soiled clothes and unshowered and create a tremoundus Chilul Hashem by doing so
I have not found anybody giving a heter, in order to save your neighbor the discomfort of your unpleasant odour. Does anybody know why not?
Reb- I’m sure if you hang around here long enough someone will offer you a heter.
This is only an American issue as the populations of most other countries (especially France) do not shower that often.
There are precedencies shown in the Talmud to allow stringencies of these rules to be adjusted as for Americans who are considered “istanis” in these matters. Chazal would permit leniencies to people who are sensitive concerning their bathing and eating requirements (istanis); i.e., an istanis mourner was permitted to bathe.
Rav Dovid Kronglas allowed showering during the nine days but advised bochrim to increase the cold water each day as it got closer to Tisha B’av.
In most of the world outside of America, people tend to shower with a frequency closer to once a week than every other day.
But I love in America, not the rest of the world
But I love in America, so do I lesschumras, but in order to comply with Halacha, I am currently spending the 9 days in Melbourne where it right now is 46F, and this Sunday Assoro b’Ov it is only going up to 51F. Thereby I am able to comply with Halachic restrictions on washing in 9 days, without causing any disturbance to anyone, not even in the Melbournd Metro.
“In most of the world outside of America, people tend to shower with a frequency closer to once a week…”
Whether they need it or not.
Just saw this post. The opening post is extremely bothersome! “We don’t all have to suffer for your aveilus.”
First of all, it is not just “his” aveilus, it is all of our aveilus.
Secondly, the answer is yes, you also have to suffer. Do you not realize the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed?!? Do you not realize the Shechina is in terrible pain without a place to dwell? Can you imagine the pain of the Shecchina observing who is in His dwelling place?!? Do you not realize how much we are suffering in galus without the Beis HaMikdash? Do you realize how many of Hashems children our suffering and/or completely lost as a result to the Churban?!?
We are only asked to mourn for 9 days out of the whole year. Are you mourning properly? Do you feel the Nine Days? Do you have a constant reminder of the aveilus throughout the day? Are you doing anything different?
Of course there are poskim to rely on to take a shower. But is that really what Hashem wants of us? Do you think that the smelly guy feels good not taking a shower for a week?!? Let me tell you, I haven’t taken a shower yet and I feel disgusting 24/7. I don’t take my mind of of the aveilus for a moment because I have a yucky feeling. And I know the Shechina feels even yuckier in this bitter galus!
Maybe think about how many Yidden throughout our Galus suffered and couldn’t take a shower for more than a week. They also couldn’t eat sleep either!
Do you know why that person next to you smells?!? It’s because you DID take a shower. If we would all be mourning properly, we would all smell the same and wouldn’t be paying attention to the person next to us. We would be standing in Shul crying “V’l’Yerushalyim Ircha B’rachamim Tasshuv”! We would all be wailing in tears through the entire tefila begging for the end of this bitter Galus. We wouldn’t even notice the person next to us, certainly not how he smells.
Galus smells. We need to get out of it quick!
?? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??????. Let’s mourn properly so we can rejoice with the building of the third Beis Hamikdash speedily in or days!
“Of course there are poskim to rely on to take a shower. But is that really what Hashem wants of us?”
I can’t say for sure, but I imagine Hashem would want us to follow the halachic system, which allows us to shower during these days.
Matan1-
Not all Poskim agree it is permitted to shower at all. And even if it is, it not permitted to take a regular shower. There are levels; cold water, without soap, not entire body at once etc.. A Rabbi must be consulted.
The Halschic system permits a shower for those who are an “istanis”, those who cannot handle the lack of a shower and therefore ask their Rabbi for a leniency. My point was, that if we really felt the Churban, we would not ask for a leniency. We would not even feel the discomfort of not taking a shower in perspective to what we really should be feeling during these days.
Does loving others mean torturing them?
Annom-I love that post!
It reminds me of the people who wanted me to use loopholes to attend their simchas when I was in availus. Went would I even want to attend a Sims. My loss felt so great that it was hard for me to stop avoiding simchas when the availus ended. We should try to touch that sorrow during this time.
We would be standing in Shul crying “V’l’Yerushalyim Ircha B’rachamim Tasshuv”! Annonymouschochom:- Indeed this is what happens @Yekkish Shuls, where this Berocho is intoned In Tisha b’Ov Nigun for an entire 3 weeks, each day, as well as various Pesukim which make reference to Yerusholayim.
annon: Honestly, I think that your position is anti-Torah (and syag, I apologize for this). You are making a special emotional case for something that may or may not be extra-Halachic. You are no longer trying to discuss a Halachah. You feel that you know the proper way to remember Yerushalayim, forget what Halachah says. Frankly, it’s absurd. My reductio ad absurdum case for this is to tell you you can’t shower all year long because you should be mourning the loss of the Beis Hamikdash. And don’t you dare ask a Shailah about that. After all, even thinking about asking the Shailah is missing out on the Aveilus in the first place. Congratulations, you just created an emotional religion that doesn’t care about Halachah and refuses to let others care about Halachah. Honestly, it’s the same thing that goes on in YCT and OO. You just have a different result.
But Sam, aren’t you ignoring the fact that this time is specifically designated as a time to feel the pain of mourning the loss?
Sam, you need to apologize not only to Annonymouschochom and Syag, but to R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as well. They are all making the same point.
It is you who have made a new religion, one that has no emotion and is completely dry. Yes, we need to follow halachah, but, to quote again from the article ZD so kindly linked:
FYI Sam2, AnnonymouscMember is so correct & on the ball. When I was young, everyone waited until after Tisha b’Ov to vacation, as the 3 weeks are time for introspection of our national loss/lack of Bais-haMikdosh.
Albeit technically there maybe nothing wrong in traveling & taking a vacation, it certainly doesn’t exhibit any atmosphere of truly feeling despondent over our lack/loss of Bais-haMikdosh.
Despite the numerous details of Halocho pertaining the 3 weeks, the bottom line is:- Are we feeling our loss? as is AnnonymouscMember.
DY: No. You’re missing the point. Yes, it’s about Aveilus. And yes, it’s about what we feel during this time. But how we show what we feel is defined by Halachah, not the other way around. Stopping the Halachic process because of emotion is wrong and antithetical to Torah. Just like stopping the Halachic process because of emotions of sympathy towards women, homosexuals, etc. who feel unwelcome is.
Sam2-
I feel for you and encourage you to speak to you Rov for proper hashkafic guidance.
If you learn the Halachos, you would see that Halacha requires us to lead a pretty depressing life during the nine days. No clean clothes. No haircuts. No simcha. No dancing or music. Minimizing business down to what is required for bare necessities. We are supposed to take some time out of each day to cry about the Churban….
In strict Halacha (M.B.), there is no leniency for showers. Not even for this coming Shabbos. We are only permitted to wash our head, face, hands, and feet with cold water for Shabbos. No soap or shampoo.
The leniencies were created mainly for our pampered desensitized generation here in America who can not handle the strict halacha. In the previous generation, nobody even asked to take a shower during these days.
I had the privilege to speak to an older lady who lived in Europe. She told me that where she lived, the entire atmosphere was different during the Nine Days. She related that when you walked in the streets of her town during this time period, there was a feeling of sadness, depression, and even fear in the streets. Everyone, even the regular “baal habayis” felt the Churban. They realized what these days mean for our Nation.
So why not the rest of the year? Why just the Nine Days?
The Gemara in Bava Kama 59b relates the followin story.
Eliezer Zeira was walking around the streets of Naharda wearing black shoes. He was wearing the shoes of mourning during the year. When he was asked why he is wearing those shoes, he answered he was mourning the destruction of Yerushalayim. At first, the people from the Beis Medrash of the Reish Galusa were upset at him. They asked him “Are you such an important person that you feel you can mourn the destruction of Yerushalayim all year?” He answered them “Yes. I am a Gavra Rabah!” I am a great man. Then he proved to them that he was a great Talmid Chochom.
There are many different explanations to that Gemara. But one thing is clear. A regular person is NOT ALLOWED to mourn the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash all year. Only a Gavra Rabah can do that. We are only given a small time period each year which we have the opportunity to mourn our great loss.
Perhaps, Chazal were afraid that if we were allowed to mourn all year, we would lose the feeling of sadness that we are supposed to have. We would get so used to the motions, they would be meaningless.
But during this period of time, we are all Gavra Rabas. We are all allowed to mourn the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash. Why let that opportunity go to waste!
Let us remember the famous Shla Hakodesh. We all know that this year, we will not be fasting on Tisha B’av. We do not mourn on Shabbos. We will push off the aveilus until Sunday. But why? Isn’t the Churban Beis Hamikdosh important enough that we should fats on Shabbos!?
The Shla offers an amazing incite. He says every tear we shed over the Churban, is actually building the Beis Hamikdash. When we cry enough and enough tears are collected, the Beis Hamikdosh will be completely built.
But on Shabbos, Binyan is one of the 39 melachos. We are not allowed to build on Shabbos! Therefore we cannot cry on Shabbos. That is why we postpone the mourning until Sunday.
Maybe if we stopped looking how to get out of the aveilus, we would feel the Churban the way we are supposed to. Maybe we would even shed some tears, build the Beis Hamikdosh and get out of this bitter galus quickly!
Apparently the source of the sayig, You may as well throw the baby out with the bathwater, is that the village would have a bath once a year and small kids were last. By the time it came to the baby’s turn you couldn’t see the baby in the bathwater.
Sam, I’m afraid you’re the one missing the point.
“Stopping the Halachic process” !?
By this you mean: encouraging Yiddim to go beyond the most minimal possible shitah, in order to express their love for The Ribono Shel Olam?
He said: “Of course there are poskim to rely on to take a shower. But is that really what Hashem wants of us?”
He didn’t say its assur according to everyone to take a shower. He said How can you? The same basic sentiment that Syag expressed.
annon: I think your cause and effect are reversed. Are the Kulas in America because we’re spoiled? Or is the Ikkar HaDin from the times of Chazal because people until 100 years ago are generally unhygienic? I don’t think there’s a proof either way. It depends on your assumption.
DY: Elaborate, please. What point am I missing?
100 years ago most people didnt shower daily, they didnt have running water. Taking a bath or shower was a bigger deal than it was today
Every was a day of Avelius in the Shtetl.
When I was young I used to ask my grandmother about Europe. I remember thinking Europe was some glamourus place of London and Paris and not the poverty of Galacia. I couldnt even comprehend that she ate one scoup of Ice Cream the whole time she lived there
Nobody is stopping the halachic process. You, however, are not understanding that what Annonymouschochom is saying is part of the halachic process.
Perhaps feivel expressed it better than I can, but you are taking the “spirit of the law”, as Rabbi Spitz phrased R’ Shlomo Zalman’s comment, out of halachah, and it belongs there, even if as lifnim mishuras hadin.
By scoffing at and/or dismissing what Rav Shlomo Zalman is saying, you don’t do halachah any justice.
While you may be correct that “how we show what we feel is defined by Halachah”, you are not correct that in hilchos aveilus, how we feel isn’t part of halachah.
DY: R’ Shlomo Zalman, who is himself part of the Halachic process, is fit to tell us when feelings can affect it and when they can’t. That’s an important difference.
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