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Joseph, that would be like showing up to a wedding in a business suit.
Haimy and other interested parties: this weeks Mishpacha magazine has an article entitled “OUR WEDDINGS, OUR WALLETS”. I have not read it yet so I dont know what suggestions they have.
Gross violation of common sense.
“Unless some sort of rabbinic directive is given it will be too embarrassing for people to stop getting gowns. It’s become too much of a given at every chasunah.”
Thank you for this post, the issue is clear to me now. This custom is simply a result of social pressure started by the monied who need to flaunt their wealth. It is against everything taught in the Torah world, as it glorifies materialism for materialism’s sake. And everyone is embarrassed into complying. How Jewish.
In Israel, this unbecoming custom is unheard of. One will not see it among the yeshivish, chassidish or dati leumi. Only in America, the land of chitzonius.
“>….Only in America, the land of chitzonius..
Make American Great Again….ban gowns, not guns. Bridal registries NOT Gun registries.
A burqa and a gown are worlds apart. A burqa is practical and convenient; it has pockets, it’s easy to wash, and you can wear it anywhere. Carpool? Throw on a burqa. The neighbor’s l’chaim? A burqa. Need to run to PTA between dinner and baths? Just slip into the burqa. Going to say Mazel Tov at a wedding and then doing shabbos shopping at Bingo and you’ll need to pack your own groceries? Burqa. No one will even know if it’s the same burqa you wore while sitting shiva two weeks ago.
A gown is anxiety on a hanger.
Joseph, wearing any lavish party dress and shoes at work or when shopping will cause heads to turn, it doesn’t particularly have to be gown length.
And if a bunch of your neighbors and friends from the bungalow colony showed up to your chasuna in lavish party dresses or gowns that is better? It will turn the same heads you refer to. Just because they’re family doesn’t make heads not turn. (To use your terminology.)
Also, which part of a woman wanting to feel “like Cinderella” is inherently not “Yiddish or right.”
Please tell me your kidding when asking that question.
The problem is obviously the glass slipper.
“””Also, which part of a woman wanting to feel “like Cinderella” is inherently not “Yiddish or right.”
Well, Cinderella was a machashefet (or at least the beneficiary thereof …..in Shamos,22:17 it says rather clearly that yidden ” shall not tolerate a sorceress among you” and in Vayikra 20:27 it says that “a man/woman who engages in witchcraft shall be pelted with stones and put to death”. Other than the two items above (and others that are a bit less explicit) I cannot imagine why aspiring to be Cinderella may offend Reb Yosef’s sensibilities.
“Please tell me your kidding when asking that question.”
Im not kidding at all. Assuming there is an appropriate mechitza, what is wrong with a woman wanting to dress really nicely? Please provide a halachic sourceMy bubbe wore the same dress to my wedding, my brother’s, my uncle’s, my cousin’s, and my neighbor’s.
In between all of those, she wore a new dress to my other brother’s wedding. We joked that we knew who the favorite was. But it was most certainly tznius and didn’t cost nearly what some kallah’s mothers spend on something to wear once.
Joseph you seem to think that beautiful and tznius are a contradiction. That is not so. It is clear not just from halacha that women are not only allowed to but should wear beautiful (but tznius) clothing when applicable. You seem to struggle with shmiras einayim issues; understandable . Many men struggle with it. That does not mean that the issue is with the women who are dressed appropriately for the occasion. If you were to say that women attending weddings tend to wear an excessive amount of makeup that’s another discussion altogether and again a discussion for women that men should not be involved in (unless you’re a rav who has a responsibility to the klal which for some reason I highly doubt that’s the case). Wedding gowns are far from a recent invention although limiting gowns to weddings is. Women used to wear gowns to visit their friends on a regular basis.
“Joseph you seem to think that beautiful and tznius are a contradiction”
Gamanit,
You’re not going to get anywhere with our resident troll, who is rather disdainful of all females whether they’re dressed in gowns or burkas. This ad-hominem quoter of the Rambam frequently admonishes males not to allow their females out of the house too often and would be thrilled if all females were barred from weddings, even the kallah.
Sad that we need Takanos for us to live within our means, but it is absolutely the reality here in the U.S.
The gowns for sisters, in laws, and even cousins , close friends have become completely out of control. Even in the secular world, gowns are reserved only for the bridesmaids and are many times paid for by the bridal party, or they can be bought in any department store at reasonable prices. In the frum world, girls and married women are expected to pay upwards of $1000 just for a few hours rental! Not to mention the HOURS spent running around trying to find the appropriate color and size.
I dont think its realistic to expect all girls to start wearing shabs dresses to weddings, it just wont look like a wedding the way we are accustomed to seeing it.
The solution may lie with these so called “Gemachs” and rentals that charge exorbitant prices just because they can. What happened to real Gemachs for CHESSED where the dress was free to borrow? Or at least under $100/dress?
Those who can afford it can spend thousands getting custom gowns created for them to their hearts content and then others can enjoy it at no or minimal cost. (Since those are also the kind of ppl who will not reuse a gown..).
Why is there literally no such thing??
How can this be implemented?
I am curious to hear from someone who owns a “gemach” (where you pay “only” 300/400 plus cleaning and alterations).
Why such high prices? How can we lower it?I think people are misunderstanding the concept of takkanos today at least in the non-Chassidic world. The idea is not necessarily that there is an evil in our midst which needs to be expunged. It is more that the peer pressure of society allows us to be sucked into many mishugasin which become very difficult to stop once they are started. It is extremely unreasonable to expect people to have the strength to fight against it on their own. The idea of takknos says “Hey we all agree that this is ridiculous and that it is killing us. Can we as a community all agree to cut it out?” Then the Rabbis sign their name to it as if to say congratulations for having some sense.
This gowns thing is a perfect example. All these kallahs who “suggest” the color that everyone should wear is in a sense pressuring families to tack on one more unnessary expense in addition to the headache of finding the “right” gown. All we need to do is tell the kallahs to cut it out. Don’t suggest anything and instead please just tell your frinds and relatives to come as you would like. Have your fun in some other way that does not harm anyone. No threats ordecrees are necessary. Just someone to speak up and say enough already!
I think that we should be talking about 30pc orchestras.
What’s the deal with that? THAT is a problem on so many levels. Money, noise, peer pressure….Very few people in my circles spend a lot on gowns. Personally the gown I wore to my sister’s wedding cost less than $200. My friend who spent “a lot” spent $600 and wore it to three weddings. Don’t blame your own inability to reign in your spending on other people. Gemachs in my area charge only dry cleaning fee plus minimal donation to cover the secretary.
just become chassidish and you won’t have any problems!!!
heiliger yidele, what are you talking about? (Almost ) ALL Chassidishe women rent gowns ( in various lengths…) and for their kids too. Some Chassidishe people spend a bomb of money on gowns. Many of my friends, we’re all Chassidish, spent $3,000 on their gowns. I know there are Chassidishe women that can spend more ( and many spend less too). It doesn’t matter if it’s Chassidish or Yeshivish, we all rent or buy gowns.
Gamanit, where I live there are no gowns to be had for $200 dollars except for those in goyisha stores which are not appropriate for a Jewish woman.
I rented a gown for $800 for my son’s wedding. Where I live it’s considered cheap for a mechateniste dress. When there are no $200-600 gowns, you can’t have $200-$600 gowns.
I find it sad that it costs $800 to rent a gown for a mechateiniste, close to the price of a good pair of precious tefillin. That’s a lot of money to appease social pressure and quite un-Jewish expectations. No criticism intended, just sad.
For the actual family too, they waste a lot of time and effort
Ubiquitin,
The issue here (for me) is not about “farginning”. I am very happy for people who have the means and who enjoy a higher standard of living than I can afford. This includes the well-known “mega-gevirim”, as well as the wealthier members of my own community and family. I do not feel resentful or bitter in the slightest towards them, or about my own (rather difficult) financial position.
The issue (for me) is that, as a society, we have adopted norms which are beyond the reach of a huge portion of our people. Now, one might say, “You’re a big boy; if you don’t want to do it, don’t do it.” To me this sounds as contemptuous as “Let them eat cake.”
If I lived alone on a desert island, I would not spend that money. However, I am fortunate enough to live in a wonderful community. Part of the cost of this is a certain degree of conformity to societal norms. I do not think it is fair to tell my daughter, “Listen, sweetie, I know all of your friends and classmates are getting married in beautiful halls with gowns, etc, but we can’t afford it, so your wedding will be in the school gym with regular Shabbos clothing.” How do you think the typical 18-24 year old girl would feel about that?
The fact is that the joy of the wedding would not be any less if done in a cheaper venue, with Shabbos clothing, without makeup artists and hairstylists, and with a more economical menu and guest list. However, the switch to such weddings can only be done on a broad scale.
Think about this: The cost of a cheap Orthodox Jewish wedding today is at least $20,000. The average annual household income in the United States is just about $60,000. Does this make sense?
rational, I agree. But at this point I’m not wearing a Shabbos dress to my kids’ weddings, I’m just trying to keep expenses “relatively” low… Don’t forget, a musician and singer costs money too- you can have mp3 players and do without them as well. Only close family like siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and first counsins should be invited to the meal, why invite neighbors, freinds, co-workers etc. ? There are expenses that cost way more than $800 for a dress. A bare-minimum, no extras wedding night costs about $10,000 excluding gowns, hairstyling, makeup, -I think the entire idea of spending this much for one night is a himmel geshrei.
The rosh yeshiva of Breslov yeshiva in Williamsburg is marrying off his own kids for $7,000, all wedding expenses included, including silver jewelry (not gold), cheap furniture, etc, mamesh everything is included for $7,000. Many of his talmidim have also done the $7000 wedding. The wedding night is celebrated in the yeshiva building, the meal is cooked by the yeshiva’s cook and served by the talmidim. They have an mp3 playing- no band. The women don’t rent dresses only wear their Shabbos clothing as the men do …
I personally wouldn’t give fake jewelry to a kallah and I do believe in buying strong furniture for young couples ( which costs $16,000-18,000). I just don’t think it’s right to spend over $10,000 for one night. That’s money flushed down the toilet in my opinion. I believe a wedding should cost nor more than $5,000 for both sides together with everything included and no extras like dress rentals.
” I do not think it is fair to tell my daughter, “Listen, sweetie, I know all of your friends and classmates are getting married in beautiful halls with gowns, etc, but we can’t afford it, so your wedding will be in the school gym with regular Shabbos clothing.””
Its nice, shes old enough to get married, shes old enough to be mature about finances. and if not then THAT is where we should work on as a community. Just becasue some meshugenar spent x amount of money on a wedding (that he could or couldnt afford) doesnt mean all of us have to.
You say “Think about this: The cost of a cheap Orthodox Jewish wedding today is at least $20,000. The average annual household income in the United States is just about $60,000. Does this make sense?”
Of course it doesnt make sense. So dont do it
ubiquitin, did you marry off any kids? And if you did, did you do what you are advising others here to do?
This crazy thing of family members wearing a gown being a standard required across frum society at wedding only developed in the last 15 years or so.
Before that you would very commonly find sisters and mothers of the bride and groom not wearing gowns.
Not sure if It’s actually assur to wear a gown, but as a frum man, I can tell you that it’s not OK. Especially with the wigs that are worn.
Please don’t give me the drivel “don’t look ”
Don’t walk where I can see you and do what you want. But when you are in public areas, people will see you. It’s not OK. Trust mephilospher
this has nothing to do with marriage
It affects all parts of life.It is our job as parents to educate our children, (and as humans to work on ourselves) that just because they do it doesn’t mean we do it.
Is this easy? no. Life isn’t easyThe answer isnt to shirk our duty and say ok I’ll get them to stop.
Haimy
no they shouldnt.
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