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As we see evidence in YEshivaworld this year and last year of heavey Satmar indoctrination in their camps to encourage their children to protest against Israel and “tsionim”, as apprently to fill the ranks of Neturei Karta, and the many scenes of Neturei Karta joining with those that would butcher Jews of all kinds in anti Israel rallies – should we be concerned?! Maybe the rest of us should greatly increase our personal activism as the ranks of enemies of Israel – Aras / Moslems, anti semites and Satmar ? grow and influence politicians and public opinion.
Maybe Sen Gillibrand who is from upstate has been familiar with the large enclave of anti Israel Satmars there and is not concerned of the “Jewish vote” as a result explaining her siding with Obama on the Iran nuclear deal issue and now questioning her support of an Anti BDS measure in Congress.
In 1990 Satmar had a bit more than 100,000 Chasidim. קינאַהאָראַ that has more well more than doubled.
BenK
If we don’t like what they say, the obvious only option we have is to Simply round them up and put them into concentration camps and take away their methods of communicating. This way will be so much safer.
No more concernsSatmar is irrelevant. A group in denial.
Please, calm down. Firstly, Satmar is not Neturei Karta. And not every Neturei Karta member goes to meet terrorists, either.
But mainly, you call it indoctrination but they call it Chinuch. We all pass our ideas to our children. If you don’t like my ideas that doesn’t make it indoctrination.
You won’t change them. They are following the great Satmar Rebbe ZYA and they won’t stop anytime soon. But, on your part, don’t overdo it either.
The world hates us enough why do we have to show then that our own people are against then.
Should we be concerned about the growth and anti-Torah indoctrination that the secular movements — schools in Israel (and the rest of the world) are implementing? More babies are born every year to secular Jews than to Chareidi families. The Rosh Yeshiva Rav E.M. Shach zt”l seemed despondent one day late in the summer. In response to his students’ query, he replied that today is Sept. 1 — a million Yiddishe kinder are being taken to the slaughterhouse (that’s what he called it) that they call “schools” (i.e., the start of the new school year for the secular schools). And I shouldn’t be sad??
That’s what should bother us.
As far as the NK kooks who hobnob with murderers — on the one hand it is VERY serious; on the other hand, they are a disturbed pack of pathetic folk whom I’m certain that in the Oilam Ha’emes Reb Yoilish zt”l is condemning for “speaking in his (Reb Yoilish’s) name. The local NK in Yerushalayim and the Beis Din of the Eida Chareids do not call for any kind of consorting with the PLO or other murderers of Yidden. It is only the chutz la’artez based lunatic fringe of NK that is doing this.These are two quite different questions…………………………..
excised#2 Should we view Satmar anti-Israel Indoctrination as a concern.
Yes and No
Yes for those in the USA who register and vote and support anti-Israel funding. Whether we agree with the secular Zionist government or not, Israel is America’s only true ally in the middle east and neccessary to protect our interests and safety (the Mossad and Shin Bet supply invaluable information about situations worldwide)
No for those who live in EY and demonstrate against the government. They are viewed as a crackpot minority, they are too small in number to have any real effect except to make Jews a laughing stock in the world media. They have proven that they can’t get along with themselves (split into 2 groups hating and suing each other) why would we expect them to get along with other ‘normal’ Jews?If Medinat Yisrael falls (not impossible,especially if the Muslims ever unite, and if the western world including the United States becomes more influenced by growing Muslim populations and openly supports the Muslims against Israel), Satmar will be seen as the ones who were right all along.
If the Medinah manages to make peace with the Muslims, which will allow normal relations and most importantly, abolition of conscription, Satmar will be irrelevant politically, and will become just another hasidic group.
However as long as Eretz Yisrael is ruled by zionists committed to war with the Muslims, and to coercing Jews to distance themselves from Torah, Satmar will remain politically important.
Well the moderators have censored my post………………
I questioned whether taxpayers should be concerned about the growth of any group which is highly dependent on government handouts (here in the USA).The moderators should not hide their heads in the sand and pretend that some groups of low income, large family people are highly dependent on Welfare, SNAP (Food Stamps), Medicaid and Public Housing (including Section 8 vouchers) do not exist.
The explosion of that part of the population must be a concern to all US taxpayers, whether it be members of a particular Chasidus, or African-Americans or Latinos or Illegal-Immigrants.
The moderators aren’t hiding their heads in the sand to the idea that sometimes a poster has a legitimate or at least presentable opinion, regardless how negatively it presents the “other side” but they have trouble refraining from inserting their global prejudice or hatred among the words. You obviously understood that, as is evidenced by your re-write, but seem reluctant to acknowledge doing so.
CTL, I don’t recall your expressing great concern about black welfare queens having eight children with eight different fathers and living off welfare.
Which Satmar?
@moderators
Since I have no access to my original censored comment I can’t agree or disagree with your characterization. I have no hate for Satmar. I pointed out that their has been explosive growth of a group dependent on US Government handouts and that is a concern to US taxpayers.In fact, although I am from a long line of misnagdim, my father and grandfather A”H sponsored, brought in to Brooklyn and employed more than 100 Satmar after the WWII. They wished it could have been many times that, but that was all the visas that could be obtained.
You have changed my original post from ‘excised…strong’ to excised.
My point of view may be strong, but it is not untrue and does not denigrate a group of people. It points out how dependent a group is on social welfare programs.
I’m a believer in earning one’s own way in the world.
Not to seem rude, but when I look at the hareidi communities in America, not just Satmar, I see wide spread entrepreneurship. Yes there are large numbers employed by the community, but perhaps since I grew up as a secular Jew, in a community where most people stay off the payrolls due to academic study for prolonged periods, and many more make their living off of government salaries, I don’t see that as problem. One also has to remember that in any population with many children, and that values education, a high percentage of the population will be engaged as professional teachers. Of course one could argue that a frei Jew spending ten years getting his PhD in English and spending his career teaching English literature is “productive”, but someone spending the same time specializing in Limudei Kodesh is a “parasite” – but that would reveal the person making the charge as a prejudiced bigot (at best, and an anti-Semite at worse).
The way I approach the issue raised by the original poster, the key question I have to answer for myself is what, if anything, do I propose to do about something I disagree with?
There are clearly many things beyond my capability as an individual to change. I cannot, for example, change another person’s deeply held convictions, though I can can certainly engage a willing person in discussion. The end result may very be that I’ll change my mind rather than that of the other person.
I certainly cannot expect to – nor would I attempt to – radically alter the beliefs of an entire community that is earnestly following the teachings of their rebbe, who was widely considered to be a talmud chacham and yiras shamayim even among other well-respected talmidei chachamim of his time who disagreed with him on the issues involving “Medinas Yisroel” .
The most I can do is listen to other points of view, lend support (votes, finances, alignment) with those figures who offer views I find compelling and not get overly worked up or fearful of the behavior of other groups unless they engage in violence or other unlawful activities.
Akuperma, how much are you paid to shill for our enemies? Rav Herzog paskened that the Third Commonwealth will not be destroyed – when Rommel ym”s seemed to be on the verge of conquering the entire Middle East. My prediction is that the PA will not survive Abbas. In fact, his new repressive measures might even implode it in his lifetime. The vast majority of Arabs want to leave. All that is necessary is to set up an international relocation fund that wil pay them to emigrate to countries that need immigrants. Canada, Australia, NZ, Brazil and Germany (despite all the refugees it has already accepted) are all up there. Thanks to the internet young Arabs can develop skill sets needed in these countries and even take professional exams by computer.
@Joseph
I haven’t seen any thread where such a comment would have been appropriate for me to make.Remember the Bob Grant proposal for mandatory sterilization of welfare moms after 2 out of wedlock children (1970 or so). It was extreme and unconstitutional but made sense
BTW>>>>what’s the difference between the black welfare queens you mention and black hat welfare kings besides prejudice?
The halachik difference is that one is a group of Jews.
Personally, I’ve found the best way to help is by sending generous checks to the various Satmar mosdos and Chesed organizations for the vital work they do on behalf of Klal Yisroel.
MR. Joseph satmar doesnt do a thing on behalf of Klal Yisroel….. oh right they do! …..Machlokes!
There is much to Satmar that is praiseworthy and admirable. Reb Yoelish ZT”L created some great foundations for chesed etc. The trouble is that his shittos about Zionism were radical. Yet, he himself would be considered moderate to today’s Satmar attitudes. There are many stories that support this. What is most painful about this subject is that Torah and Chassidus point to fundamental values, such as the midos of Ahavas Hashem, Yir’as Shomayim, Chassidus – as in lifnim mishuras hadin, etc. You will not succeed in selling me the bill of goods that the anti-Zionism issue is greater than any of these. So what we are seeing is the reversing of priorities, where this anti-Israel stuff is given enough weight as to make it part of chinuch, substituting for the churban Bais Hamikdosh, and our obligation to make Ahavas Hashem the basis of our existence.
So I consider these people unfortunately sick, and pray for their refuah. But just as I do not do anything to support illness, neither physical or mental, I must decry the folly of this derech. I am neither pro- nor anti-Zionist. I will not exclude any of the 613 mitzvos, or anything else that is part of being a Torah true Jew because of this anti-Zionist rhetoric and nonsense. That’s where they are seriously ill.
Yes, it is a concern. There is one big problem with all this. They are not really espousing the shittoh of Reb Yoelish ZT”L. And the saying goes, אן איינרעדעניש איז ערגער ווי א קרענק.
I wish people would be half as concerned about the spread of sinas chinom as they tend to be about the spread of political ideas that they disagree with…
CTL:
I’m a believer in earning one’s own way in the world.Oh? Then what do make of the approximately $233.7 BILLION in aid (adjusted for inflation) that the US has given Israel since the state was formed in 1948?
The Divrei Yoel’s shitta on Zionism was no different than the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Brisker Rov, the Chazon Ish and the rest of Gedolei Yisroel. The only difference with some of them was how to deal with the State in the aftermath of its unfortunate inception.
And if TLIK doesn’t agree with the Divrei Yoel and Satmar’s choices in chinuch, he can send his children to other yeshivos instead of eating his heart out that they follow the Rebbe’s shitta in chinuch.
MW13
What do I make of foreign aid by the US government?#1 Humanitarian aid is a good thing it it alleviates starvation, disease and homelessness
#2 Military aid may be in our best interests, many Americans would rather arm others than have our own children go off to fight
#3 Some foreign aid is to assuage guiltIn all fairness, much American foreign aid, including most of what the Americans give Israel, is in the form of credits to buy American goods. Thus the Israeli military pays to keep American workers employed making weapons that are in fact more expensive, and perhaps inferior, to what would be made by Israeli workers but for the subsidies in the form of foreign aid. It’s hardly charity. If this is done outside of a foreign aid program it would be considered selling goods below cost, and would violate the international law prohibition of “dumping.”
mw13: I wish people would be half as concerned about the spread of sinas chinom as they tend to be about the spread of political ideas that they disagree with…
The truest post on this thread.
CTLAWYER: at least some of your post got through. Mine was deleted entirely.
Joseph:
Today’s nonsense was NOT the shittoh of the Divrei Yoel. Inquire. You will discover that as radical as his shittoh was, it did not take priority to the basics of Torah and Avodas Hashem.
Everyone has their opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion and to exercise what chinuch they want to give in their mosod. It doesn’t mean you have to send there! Unfortunately, not all of us can agree. If we did Moshiach would have been here already! As far as government programs, Baruch Hashem I am not on any of them BUT why cant Jewish people exercise their rights, just like everyone else? Unfortunately I have been to various government offices, with family members and the majority were NEVER Jews!
FYI, in all Chasidic Sects Satmer chasidim are the wealthiest in the nation, just sayin…………..Please. There about a half-dozen deranged individuals who support Iran and Palestinian terrorism. Attempting to characterize the all of the various Satmar/Badatz communities based such is about as disingenuous as claiming that that anybody who opposes the assassination of Jews for political purposes should be concerned about the growth of the Dati-Leumi community- just look what happened to Rabin.
Now, I happen to believe that there legitimate gripes about the political beliefs of the average Satmar chossid. But I don’t think that’s the most important thing we should be focusing on when we think about the growth of Satmar. We should be focusing on their attitudes towards Shabbos, kashrus, tzniyus, chessed, etc.
This may be controversial here in the CR, but I don’t think “What was your position on the State of Israel?” is going to be one of the first ten questions that Hashem will ask us. Or the first hundred. Or thousand. There is a time and place to argue about politics, but we really must make sure that we put our actual religion first.
Edited
“Remember the Bob Grant proposal for mandatory sterilization of welfare moms after 2 out of wedlock children (1970 or so). It was extreme and unconstitutional but made sense”
Woah, did CT get hacked? I thought he was a leftist?
Good thing Chasidim don’t have out of wedlock children.
CTL:
MW13
What do I make of foreign aid by the US government?#1 Humanitarian aid is a good thing it it alleviates starvation, disease and homelessness
#2 Military aid may be in our best interests, many Americans would rather arm others than have our own children go off to fight
#3 Some foreign aid is to assuage guiltWhile you have addressed the issue of foreign aid in general, you have not answered the specific question of which of these three factors you think would justify the “approximately $233.7 BILLION in aid (adjusted for inflation) that the US has given Israel since the state was formed in 1948”.
@Nevillechaimberlin
Just because I said something made sense, does not mean I agreed with it. It was a radical proposal by a very Conservative talk show host who wanted to be mayor of NYC.
His point, knowing that this could never be an enforcable law, was that after 2 out of wedlock children a mother would receive no additional welfare benefits for more kids.mw13: The American aid to Israel provides jobs for thousands of American workers making equipment that would otherwise be made by Israeli workers. In addition, Israeli improvements and technologies flow to the US readily thanks to the aid. Remember that the most significant weapon now in use by the American military is the drone, which was an Israeli invention. While it would no longer matter now the US is energy independent and exporting oil, for many years the Israelis would have seriously weakened their enemies by taking out the Arab oil industry, which would have crippled them economically, and seriously hurt the Americans. Note that in 1947-48, when American military aid would have helped Israel, the US prohibited such aid – and subsequent aid was always based on American self-interest.
mw13
You post to which I replied asked: “Then what do make of the approximately $233.7 BILLION in aid (adjusted for inflation) that the US has given Israel since the state was formed in 1948?”
I answered what I make of foreign aid, you then come back and say “you have not answered the specific question of which of these three factors you think would justify the “approximately $233.7 BILLION in aid (adjusted for inflation) that the US has given Israel since the state was formed in 1948”.
NICE TRY…….you did NOT ask that specific question, so how could I answer it.
I don’t have to justify the foreign aid given to Israel by the USA. We live in a representative democracy, and empower our elected members of Congress to make these decisions. They have to justify their actions or risk losing reelection.
Personally, I think it was money well spent for all three reasons.
Money to resettle refugees (food, clothing, shelter, education)
Money to build a political ally’s might in a region that hates the USA
Money to assuage guilt for not taking refugees from Europe when the USA could have done so in the 1930s and 40s.I don’t mind the small amount of my tax dollars spent on foreign aid to Israel
@Benk What Satmer did in their camp was just an act of what they called “FUN”. Personally if I had any of my children there I would have been FURIOUS! I do not believe this is what we should be doing with our children to have fun! On that note, it is up to the parents who send to that camp to voice their opinion with the hanhala of that camp.It has nothing to do with me!
Secondly, my personal opinion is I do not believe in the government of Israel, does that mean I can not LOVE Eretz Yisroel? Am i calling anyone there Amalak? I try very hard not to judge anyone other Jew negatively but it doesn’t mean I have to agree with them or their policies! What is going on over there between our very own is HORRIFIC! I have seen it with my own eyes. I don’t need video clips to see the abuse .CTL, yet you do mind the even smaller amount of government entitlement benefits collectively given to “black hat” Jewish families.
There’s a disconnect there.
CTL:
I don’t mind the small amount of my tax dollars spent on foreign aid to IsraelNor do I – I’m actually quite happy about it. But I’m also quite happy about the small amount of my tax dollars going to my fellow yidden here in the US. And I do not believe that the State of Israel is any more deserving of US tax money (aka, my tax money) than a Satmar chossid in Monroe is.
@Joseph
You are attributing words to me that never were typed by me.
“CTL, yet you do mind the even smaller amount of government entitlement benefits collectively given to “black hat” Jewish families.”
My comment asking about the difference between Black Welfare Queens and Black Hat Welfare Queens was to show the bias, prejudice and hypocrisy of some posters.I have no problem with the truly needy receiving government benefits that they legitimately qualify for. I don’t tolerate lying, cheating and fudging applications to get the benefits.
I do believe in workfare. Able bodied adults must perform public work in order to receive benefits.
CTL, do you believe welfare benefits should be curtailed to poor non-(FT)working blacks?
@Joseph
I believe that able bodied adults should lose welfare benefits if they refuse work (including work assigned by the government).
Last year, the city welfare office in the largest city near me required able bodied adults who were collecting city welfare benefits to shovel snow at city schools, parks, etc. Nothing wrong with that.CTLAWYER: Jewish philosophy is similar. Most “welfare” to able body men is given through kollels (they have to show up and learn to get paid) or through make-work jobs. The problem with make-work jobs is that they are very inefficient in a macroeconomic sort of way. One reason the Soviet Union had trouble keeping up with the US was a policy of full employment, so for example, their libraries stuck with card catalogs (providing employment to card typists and filers) while the US switched to online. The US developed machinery, and they provided full employment. Indeed, the “find work for all abled body adults” is a luddite argument, and is similar to those who want to ban self-driving cars . As a lawyer, conside what has happened to the large numbers of clerks, scriveners, cite chckers, loose-leaf filers who are now unemployed due to modern technology – perhaps we can find employment for them in law firms by banning word processing and computerized legal research tools. — But as I said, Jews traditionally pay people to do something useful, and the Americans have the demeaning custom of giving handouts and making the recipient feel like a failure.
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