Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

n0mesorah,

“Is there any contemporary that you’ve read on the six mitzvos? The classics are to terse, or hard to imagine into our thinking. I want to claim, that I am not saying any chiddush at all in these foundational mitzvos. If we would start from the sources it would never end. So can you pick something for me to be in line with?”

Declaring that you’re not saying a chiddush does not punt the burden of proof onto me. Our disagreement is not with the six mitzvos themselves, but whether one can disregard those six mitzvos and even further disregard any belief in Hashem at all, and still be within the bounds of the Torah.

Avira – Again you take my words in the wrong direction!
I said you would think twice about the rebbe being Moshiach as opposed to rav shach, who, yes, learned a lot of Torah, was a rosh yeshiva with a magnificent aron kodesh, and all the stuff…
But the Rebbe I am confident to say he prepared the world for Moshiach. Whether he himself is, I truly don’t know, and nobody knows.

Anybody who says that the rebbe did little to brin Moshiach, is just ignorant. If somebody knows the extent of the Rebbe, & his Shluchim, you’ll learn a thing or two.

The Rebbe was a major marbetz torah. To yeshivaliet also. Besides for helping Torah VDas and Chaim Berlin stay open. And that’s not counting all the talmidim of Rav Aaron and the old Mirrers who went to farbraing. Not many Rebbes could learn like him.

Dear Avram,

“…….and then to blame others….”

Agreed.

Point #1 It’s not separating from anyone. It’s different approaches to normalizing kabbalah. Now, you could think they have it wrong. We could even go so far as to disagree with the Baal HaTanya. But, as outsiders we can’t tell Chabad how to learn. I’m sure any group could critique something about every group’s teachings.

Point # 2 Agreed. I then said a chiddush that on those individuals it does not make them outside the pale. They are just making a mistake. I also posted a while back, that it is Chabad’s issue that they have some that misconstrue Chabad’s teachings. Other communities, would give such types an ultimatum, that is not the Chabad way. You can think that they are very wrong for such an approach, and I may agree with you. But we can’t tell them to change. It’s basically asking Chabad not to be Chabad.

Ts – BTs have had “aha” watershed moments from all sorts of things. I know a guy who was inspired by a pastor, another guy who was drawn in by a reform rabbi with hair down to his navel.

I’m sure many, many people had a moment with the tefilin. But the majority, overwhelming majority, take a selfie and never think about it again

And they don’t get credit or olam haba for it either, because they have no knowledge of the mitzvah, metzaveh, or even what the tefilin are. Not to mention half of the time it’s in full view of immodestly dressed women.

Nomesorah; now I’m convinced you are or were chabad. Only in chabad do they teach these fairy tales about how the lubavitcher rebbe saved the entire world. What did he do to keep chaim berlin lr other yeshivos open?

Rav shraga feivel mendelowitz saved a lot of yeshivos, including ner yisroel, but i bet you’ve never even heard of him. Rav aharon was opposed to the lubavitcher rebbe. My rebbe rav belsky said he was not a gadol in learning. I have no idea where these fables originated.

Many people went to him. Some satmar chasidim would “double dip”, even though the satmar rov called him a “meshuganeh”.

Many people in yeshivos went to JTS too. Really doesn’t mean anything.

avira – they do. They are removed from the geder of a karkafta who didn”t put on tefillin and become a head which did put on tefillin, making them zoche to olam habah.

From Shaarei Kedusha, Part 2, Shaar 8:
וכן מצות עשה להניח תפילין, אם היה קרקפתא דלא מנח תפילין מעולם, אינו קם בתחית המתים
Somebody who does put on tefillin, even once, wakes up for olam haboh.

Chabad is doing well I’m Lakewood. There are Chabad families in Lakewood from when it was just a yeshiva town.

Avira – I try to be respectful, but you need to be respectful of tzaddikim who are much greater than you whom you cannot fathom.

edited

IIt is simply unfathomable that he said the Rebbe wasn’t a gadol batorah.

Just watch a frabrengen, the rebbe literally rattles off sources after sources and sayings and teachings from all over Torah, it is pashut unfathomable to say such a thing.

From Rav Pinchos Hirschprung: “There are two things which set the Rebbe apart,” Rabbi Hirschprung cited. “The Rebbe’s Torah knowledge and that he is the true leader of the generation. Pinchas Hirschprung is not impressed by the title ‘gaon’ [Torah giant]. He knows who deserves the title. And I am telling you that there is nobody like the Rebbe, not only in our generation but even in earlier generations. I was with the gaon Rabbi Meir Shapiro in Lublin, with the gaon Rabbi Menachem Zemba, and all the gaonim of the previous generation. I found no one comparable to the Rebbe’s greatness in all areas of Torah.”

I appreciate your tone – I don’t mean to be disrespectful or hostile either. I am sharing my experiences and knowledge of what gedolim said and what i am aware of to be popular notions in chabad, both based on the lubavitcher rebbe’s leadership and otherwise.

Well, we know how one talmid compared the Rayatz and Rav Aaron. Rav Aaron was very, very humble. Any real talmid of the R”Y zatzal has a real hard time criticizing anybody. Even those that deserve heaps of criticism. I’ve not heard them discuss Chabad much, but they all were very impressed once they met the Rebbe. Rav Belsky did tell me that the R”Y zatzal did not hold of the Rebbe. He quoted Rav Aaron about two other aspects of Chabad.

I did not say the Rebbe was able to learn like a Rosh Yeshiva. Rav Belsky had a very high bar for everything. Did you ever ask him if Rav Shach knew how to learn, or if he learned Rav Shach’s Torah?

Dear Avira,

You posted a few days ago, ” Chabad uses the ‘you don’t understand’ with Satmar …. who very much do understand their language”.

Satmar is so far from the mainstream chassidus in terms of Toras Habesht and kabbalah that you’ve written your own retort. It’s like proving Telshe from Brisk.

Here is an example. The guf of a tzaddik. In normative kabbalah this means simply that the flesh and the blood are elevated to the point that the pull to earthly desires is lost, and they have a bodily desire for heavenly matters. In Chabad it means that the tziddkus of the the tzaddik is his actual reality and not his guf. You could have two people using the same term, and his a totally different implication. This is why the study of kabballah is sometimes done with a Master.

Dear Avira,

Now could we get back to the books? I think your kidding when you posted that you could not find “Atzmus in a Guf” in Tanya. You know where to find it. Do you know where the Nefesh Hachaim says it?

Mr Baum – even in my more limited knowledge of everything than n0m I can find several errors/flaws/misinformation in your last post. But I also hear loud and clear that you’ve accepted this reality as yours and anything anyone says to refute it will get you to start up again with your sinas chinam diversion.
Hatzlacha.

Dear Ts,

I would appreciate an answer. Does the Rebbe have to resume breathing, before he can definitely be proven to be moshiach?

He needs to be from Malchus Beis Dovid.

About the mishichistim: they have no right to call the Rebbe Moshiach if we don’t know who it is
About the Elokistim: They are all meshuganes I don’t know what to say about them, they’re minds are twisted, and this topic I don’t believe will help. I said above what I think everybody should do.

Dear Ts,

In truth you refuted your own point about not hearing of other Gedolim today, who do not hold of the Rebbe. You posted a few times, that just to post grievances that won’t change anything are sinas chinam.

Avira > No group of jews ever believed that putting boxes on clueless frei people with the status of goyim or captured babies brings the geulah

I was first bothered by your erudite criticism of specific Torah approaches, but now I realize you shoot anything that does not correspond to what people in your kevutza approve. This one is probably the most repugnant – you are not just taking on some intellectual with a different shitah, but denigrating both klal Isroel in general and those people who care about them. Skilah shnei tziporim b’ makah ahas, as they say.

Dear Avira,

Tanya chapter 2.

Nefesh Hachaim gate 1 note 4.

We’re not talking about chelek eloka mimaal – that’s a concept that’s discussed everywhere in any machshava sefer that’s after kabalas ha’ari.

Nice try. A piece of godliness placed in a Jewis not the same as saying that specifically a rebbe is the essence of god. Actually, the tanya says there משיח’ שהם בחי’ עקביים ממש לגבי המוח והראש וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל שנשמותיהם הם בחי’ ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות (that may not have pasted well), that EVERY jew has the chelek eloka, from the avos down to the amhaaratzim; he explains how every part of klal yisroel is compared to higher and lower parts of the body.

The exact opposite of the lubavitcher rebbe’s claim that a tzadik has a special godliness when compared to someone else.

Neither says that you can daven at the graves of a tzadik because a tzadik is the essence of god wrapped in a body.

My opinion? Nobody should ever daven by any kevarim. How many people called Rav Shimon, the Godly teacher last week? I don’t know the Rebbe’s opinion on kevarim.

@N0mesorah:
“The fight about Lubavitch has ended. Not because of agreement or acceptance. But because Chabad does not need the other groups. And Chabad is not like Reform that necessitated schism.”

I think unfortunately that it’s quite the opposite.
At least in Eretz Yisrael, the “fight” has ended because the meshichisters have won.
They have become accepted as the legitimate representatives in Israel, at least de facto. There is only a question of how much to they emphasize their belief when they are trying to mekarev people.

But any time you see chabadskers in a park on Shabbos in Israel, they add yechi to the 12 pesukim.
All the gan yisrael camps are meshichist. (I’ve personally investigated 5 and found them that way; and I asked a few people who work in gan yisrael to research more about them. They told me that at this point, more than 70% of the gan izzies are openly meshichist, and they believed the rest just don’t say it publicly.)

I am involved with baalei teshuva in israel, and they travel all over and end up in chabad houses everywhere. Everytime I asked these guys about the chabad houses, they all have said that they are meshichists.

If you walk into any shul and see the parsha sheets from chabad, all you will see are the meshichists.

I have a few friends who are “normal” chabad from america. They made aliyah and were trying to find schools for their kids that weren’t under the meshichist influence. They couldn’t find any.
They said they tried partnering up with a few other families to start a “normal” chabad school.
Everyt ime they tried, they got back the answer: “we already have a chabad school here, why do we need a second?”

When they finally sent their kids to schools that weren’t “officially” meshichist, their boys were made fun of for not wearing a yehi kippah.

And all of this is besides the fact that the Tzfas chabad are regular speakers at events all over Israel.
There is no reason that Chabadskers are willing to associate- and honor- speakers who openly believe the rebbe is HKBH r”l.

When people ask why are we “wasting our time” protesting chabad, and why don’t we just mind our own business, we point to the above.

Besides caring about other yidden and not wanting them to be ensnared in apikorus, I have to worry about my kids.
Chabad actively recruit the frum communities, especially the kids.

My kids would love to take part in the Lag Ba’Omer parade that chabad runs.
But I know and have confirmed that part of the parades around my area include saying the pesukim- including yehi.
And last year they honored a “mashpiah” from tsfas to help lead the parade.

So we can’t just say “let’s avoid machlokes.”
As long as mechishisters are the de facto chabad representatives here in Israel- with no public dissent from the “normal” chabad- and as long as they are expanding their influence and trying to “mashpiah” on regular frum kids, then we have no choice but to protest.

Halevai that normal chabadsker would be more vocal and actually be recognized as the “legitimate branch” of Chabad, so we could marginalize these crazies and support all the good guys.

I’d love to focus on all of the good Chabad does, and support their kiruv movements.
But as long as meshichisters are running things here, we can’t do that.

It wasn’t a rant. And you seem to be mirroring the democrat practice of mislabling something to make it so. Like calling inflation the putin price hike to hypnotize listeners to believe that’s the source. You take these huge statewide issues and call them a few crazies. You alter the reality he has presented to be something insignificant and then make him look silly for caring.
Gefilte – I hear you. And not because I have sina issues, and neither do you. Live and let live is not a Jewish concept.

Representing whom? Nobody but themselves.

Where still waiting for the yeshiva to call out their own.

“your mind always focusing on finding where someone is wrong. ”

Says the man who accuses every learner of having potential middos and finance issues

“There are a lot of opinions saying that value of Torah learning is devalued by personal shortcomings.”

If only your watering down of torah and lauding those who do would bother you quite as much.