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Going to a tzaddik to ask for a brachah should be on the list of serving ‘avodah zara’, right? It would be signifying that he is the one who control eveything. Takeh. Then basically all Yidden are serving avodah zara except you!
Remind me of the mashal: A guy walks into his doctors office, and starts complaining about how when he touches his nose it hurts, when he touches his ear, it hurts, when he touches his tooth it hurts, and continues… The doctor realized the situation and said calmy:
I think it’s just your hand that hurts!Baum – it is so obvious you know nothing of the jews or torah world outside of lubavitch. Except what they taught you inside.
Well that isn’t true. I grew up in a litvishe school. Believe me, I know a lot about the litvish world.
@Syag Lchochma
And a lot of people who criticize Lubavitch do not understand the Chassidic world and are only reiterating what their Litvak teachers taught them. Not to say there weren’t Chassidusses that were critical but the issue isn’t as black and white as the Litvash world presents it as
Baum – you hide it well
Marxist – I was specifically referring to him
nomesorah:
It’s been a few years since I’ve davened in a Chabad shul; I haven’t gone in since I saw that in tzfat. My local Chabad is one of those who invites tzfas people to speak.
I’ve seen two different versions.
Most places that I’ve seen say it responsively, the way many shul swill say pirkei tehillim. They say it right at the end of davening while the chazan is still at the amud.
In a couple of places I’ve seen them sing it together while dancing around the bima, also right after davening while everyone still had on tallis and tefillin (I happened to daven shacharis there).It’s also important to recognize how much importance they give it.
Chabadskers go around the parks here shabbos afternoon, gathering the kids to say the 12 pesukim that the rebbe determined contain fundamentals of hashkafa.The chabadskers have appended yechi to that, as if it’s the 13th pasuk.
There’s a lot to discuss about whether we should Alita kids to accept candy from strangers in general in exchange for doing anything; and there’s some controversy about picking these 12pesukim (actually including gemara and Tanya as well) to be institutionalized.
But I can understand the arguments in favor of both.But now we’ve got lots of kids in the neighborhood, including many non-chabad saying “yechi” responsively word by wrote, just the same as they’re saying these pesukim!
Yechi is definitely being given the same weight as shema yisrael,”yagati u’matzasi taamin” and the rest!
Only by the mishichistim. that’s what you are forgetting.
Again, the Rebbe was no way into Yechi, and just because he waved his hands means nothing. He did that by all niggunim that were sung when he walked out of shul it doesn’t proved he liked the song or the idea behind it.
And lubavitch follows the rebbe. So there you have it, you can’t say this as “general luabvitch” becauseA. They are a minority
B. They are going against the Rebbe’s wishes
C. They are not supported by the flagship luabvitcher mosdos
D. Even if all these above were in their favor, still, that doesn’t make it all lubavitchers@Syag Lchochma
It doesn’t look like your adding to much tochen to this forum. All your doing is getting this more heated. I wonder if that’s your profession?Syag – Hide what?
Okay. Not that radical.
Thanks, Gefilte!
Here is how I see our disagreement about yechi.
Suppose we would C”V see a minyan insert yechi or something similar into the middle of kedusha or kaddish. You would think that they are putting yechi on a celestial level. And I would think that they just do not know the concepts of kedusha.
As I’m typing this, I realize that this could be a fundamental difference in how we view this whole topic. [As well as some others.] Your thinking is that yechi is an addition. Like a new concept. And I see it as they are missing something and use yechi to fill the void.
TS Baum- I don’t care what percentage the meshechisters technically make up.
All over Eretz Yisrael, they are the dominate “strain” of Chabad.
When you go to parks anywhere in Yerushalayim, and many neighborhoods in other cities, you will see chabadskers gathering kids for the 12 pesukim. And every single time I’ve seen it, they’ve always added yechi.When you see chabadskers around, they always have yechi on their kippah. Not only BT but even “mainstream” chabadskers do.
The Tzfas chabadsker- ie the Elohists- are constantly being invited for guest fabrengens on all occasions. I’ve seen the signs up in numerous neighborhoods. They should be actively protesting the tzfas crowd; but at the very least, they need to disassociate with them. But they are not.So tell me that there are lots of chabadskers who don’t believe in this philosophy.
There still are a large number of chabadskers who are meshichisters, and many of them don’t have a problem with the elohists, and that’s a real issue.Tochen according to who? I find the topic uninteresting but am always focused on people’s twisting of words, misrepresenting other’s opinions and throwing insults when they run out of things to say. To me that is always the tochen.
“Going to a tzaddik to ask for a brachah should be on the list of serving ‘avodah zara’, right? It would be signifying that he is the one who control eveything. Takeh.”
this is silly. it is one proof of what I said above, that you don’t have any idea how things work outside of what you have learned and lived. Why you would consider that an insult is interesting, considering it is a hallmark of the cheder education.
Do you think that when we go to a tzaddik for a brachah we are signifying that he is the one controls everything? Or are you saying that that is what you do so you assume we do as well?
Spoiler alert – that is never a consideration on either side of the tzaddiks desk.When L Rebbe was paralyzed and moschihism was igniting, a local Rav called Rebbe’s secretariat and asked them how he can be of help in these difficult times. They asked him to publicize that this craziness is not coming from them. So, the Rav said it publicly. So, while this is not a direct testimony of what the Rebbe himself would think about it, but as close as it gets.
@GefilteFish
DId you forget about what I said about the rebbe? It’s not the lubavitch derech if it was not suggested by the rebbe.Going according to avirah’s standards for calling something avodah zara, this would pass the test.
Ts, as syag told you, we don’t believe that the tzadik will help us. Maybe his tefilos are purer, maybe he’ll be meorer rachamim, etc, but Hashem is the one who does the yeshua itself. Asking a rebbe for a bracha is not the same as calling out in this world for a deceased rebbe to help you. That’s davening, that’s making a request, and that’s deification. Big, gaping, canyon of a difference
I’ve been going to rebbehs my entire adult life; i believe that they can daven for me, that they have siyata dishmaya, and some have ruach hakodesh. Nothing more.
“I’ve been going to rebbehs my entire adult life;”
Have you ever asked any of these Rebbehs what they think of Lubavitch?
Dear Avira,
You condone your actions with you intent. At the same time you condemn Chabad because of what they think. If you have the right to claim righteousness in light of your thoughts, than you simultaneously relinquish the right to speak for what others are actually thinking.
I’ve sat with groups of Chabad Bachurim. None of them will admit that they are mishachist openly. Only in private discussion, would some argue a messianic angle.
I never met any that claim anything like elohist. Unless basic kabbalistic expressions have to be meant literally. So sure, ban all the kabbalah again. It was all probably avodah zara all along anyway, right?
I also met one older person. Who insisted that the Rebbe is still breathing, walking, and talking. But he had a completely secular, entertainer, pegged as mashiach.
n0mesorah,
“I’m using the ‘beliefs are irrelevant’ line, for the opposite extreme. When determining what is within the ‘norms’ of Frum Yidden, I think it is about observance. As beliefs alone does not make a Yid.”
That seems fallacious to me. Just because beliefs alone do not make a Yid does not mean that observance alone does so. Both are needed.
“So long as all the practice is being practiced, there is room for more extreme thought systems.”
We tend to accept those who are outwardly observant as “frum” and consider those who are not outwardly observant as “not yet frum” because, as human beings, we can only perceive the outside of another. Therefore, we use observance as a proxy. This is a human limitation, but you seem to be turning it into a personal philosophy. Also, Jewish history shows that we do indeed have machlokes based on thought systems rather than observance. Sometimes the new and different ideas become integrated into klal Yisroel, other times they result in groups R”L going off the derech.
n0mesorah,
“I’m not sure if this is aimed at me or the topic. Either way, I do not understand how this fits with the rest of your post.”
It was “aimed” at you – because your entire argument here effectively is to stop questioning Chabad because they can still be nominal Jews so long as they do the outward mitzvos.
“If you need a theory, there seems to be an elitist bent. With Chabad claiming a higher understanding of God’s world. And the Yeshivish (? is this accurate ?) anti Chabad claiming to know how and why Chabad is out of the Pale.”
I think also it’s the response that is given. When Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L made his psak regarding chalav stam/”companies” dairy, he received considerable opposition from some other gedolim. Rav Moshe’s response to the opposition was to point to his psak, where his Torah reasoning was extensively documented – and he asked those who opposed the psak to please bring their own Torah to refute him. No demonizing of any side, CV”S was involved. Interestingly this did not resolve the dispute – there are frum Jews who hold to this day that Rav Moshe’s psak causes Yidden to eat unkosher dairy, but the power of the Torah behind each opinion has brought a measure of peace to klal Yisroel.
By Chabad, and this is my own perception so I hope TS Baum or others can show me differently, they do not respond to opposition with extensive Torah reasoning to demonstrate why they are correct, even to get to the “agree to disagree” point as in chalav stam. They instead declare that the opposition just cannot understand these things, do the same things themselves, and if further pressed will ultimately vilify the detractors as wicked “snags” – even gedolim! I know they do not have a monopoly on the vilifying, but puk chazi who has set up a separate communal infrastructure in almost every respect and does not engage with the rest of frum Yidden.
nomesorah-
Those people wearing kippahs with the version of yehi that says “Adoneinu Boreinu v’rabbeinu” are quite openly calling him their god. This is very prevalent in Tsfas.
When the local chabad rabbi by me- who is a meshichist- invited one of the rebbeim from the tsfas yeshiva to speak locally, I asked him how could he allow that rabbi’s presence in his shul; isn’t that a statement of support for his position?!The rabbi told me something like, there are many different ways to understand our connection to the Rebbe, and it’s expressed differently depending on your relationship with him, and we can’t criticize people for having a different relationship with the Rebbe than we do.
(It was when he told me this that I absolutely stopped entering into meshichist shuls).This is not a question of “kabbalastic ideas”. They are literally calling him their creator r”l.
n0mesorah,
“Why Chabad does not have a track with zero kabalistic teachings, is a good question that will not get a good answer.”
That doesn’t really bother me. The backbone of Chabad is the Tanya, which, if I understand correctly (and Chabad posters please correct me if I’m mistaken), is a sefer that brings the kabbalistic secrets of Torah, which they call Chassidus, out of the realm of the esoteric to make them accessible to every Jew. So to have a “Chabad” track that ignores what makes Chabad unique doesn’t really make sense, just like a BA in art history program wouldn’t make sense in BMG.
Your later argument seems to be that mishichism/elokism/etc are simple people misunderstanding kabbalistic terminology. If so, then is it not dangerous to disseminate kabbalistic concepts to those who will likely misunderstand and go astray? Your earlier argument seemed to be that non-Lubavitchers just don’t understand the kabbalistic concepts and terminology that Chabad uses. If so, and the Tanya is kabbalah for the masses, why can’t the concepts just be explained?
TS Baum,
“Only by the mishichistim. that’s what you are forgetting. Again, the Rebbe was no way into Yechi, … you can’t say this as “general luabvitch”
My questions – if the mishichists have indeed corrupted Chabad concepts and gone astray, should they be rebuked or encouraged to return (as this thread’s title states)? And if so, who should do this tochacha? Because Chabad itself does not seem to be opposing them with any vigor, and you seem to get upset when non-Chabad Jews do so.
n0mesorah,
“For now, let’s continue on the other 607 mitzvos only.”
As I’ve argued before, I don’t see how this distinction can be made – a basic level of belief is a prerequisite for fulfillment of all of the mitzvos.
“Second of all, I put myself in a theological bind. In order to put my defining point into focus, I pushed it beyond any reasonable parameters. Of course any sane human has to be thinking something to be observant.”
Correct, hence my not-so-reasonable examples of an athiest observing mitzvos out of guilt, etc. It’s not sustainable at all, and only the external will be kept (and then perhaps only when others are looking), and mitzvos have both external and internal components.
“However, that may speak more to our humanness, than to spirituality. After all, do malachim ‘think’ when they observe His will?”
The Torah was made for humans – it is the blueprint of humanity, and in fact the astonishingly blunt and accurate knowledge of how humans work was what drew me who grew up non-frum into Torah more than any “age of the universe” type arguments that are popular with Aish, etc.
“My main point is this. Every Born-Observant Jew, starts of practicing before they understand any Torah system.”
I don’t really agree with this. Young children innately have an innocent and pure faith that is cute beyond words, but are also ruled completely by their yetzer hara. This is a necessary part of their development, because children need to have their needs met for survival. As we get older, we can increasingly suppress and control our yetzer hara, but our knowledge and understanding also becomes more complex, which gives the yetzer hara new areas to attack other than the stomach and the toys.
“Some people never get that there is a specific purpose to Torah. And they have a mush where others have a sense of purpose.”
And this is something to be sad about and try to change, not accept with a shrug.
“If they preach their lack of knowledge, the proper response is ‘you need to learn more’ or something similar.”
Not if they start gathering adherents to their cause.
“But if they change their practice because it is all mush anyways, then they begin to lose their bona fides. if this is true, then it follows that observance can be achieved without any real idea of the Godhead.”
Not so, only outward observance, which is incomplete, and as I’ve been arguing this whole time, not sufficient to actually be considered fulfilling the mitzvos at all. In another hopefully approved post, I pointed out that our acceptance of “Orthoprax” is more due to our inability to see inside a person and thus using the outward appearances as a proxy. But our acceptance does not a kosher Jew make. That’s up to Hashem, as it says (paraphrasing Chumash Devarim), the revealed are for us and the hidden are for Hashem to deal with.
“I contend that some people are not just uncomfortable talking about Hashem, they really do not understand what the whole conversation is about.”
Yes, someone gave us a children’s book that told the story of Passover, and while the illustrations were great, I noticed that the book did not mention Hashem at all! It made it sound like Moshe Rabbeinu was a magic man who did it all – the book could’ve been titled “Moses and his magic staff”. So I read it to my kids, changing the words to say that Hashem did all of these things, and then chucked the book into the trash after they went to bed.
To keep the mitzvos on even the basic level, one has to fully accept all the mitzvos. Now, the query of the six constant mitzvos becomes unavoidable.”
Nu?
Who do YOU (reading this now) this has a bigger chance in their tefilla/prayer being answered? Aging to a Rebba and asking him for a bracha for help in parnassah or a shidduch etc…. Or B-YOU going to the corner of your house and turning and calling out directly to Hashem-the king of kings and ruler of the entire world-for help?
What is your honest answer? Cause we all know the truth. Your right the Rebba is a big tzaddik and there’s a famous line “tzaddik gozer, Hashem Mekayaim” which means when a Tzaddik calls out Hashem always answers him. BUT THE PRO OF GOING DIRECTLY TO HASHEM and not through messengers is hundreds of times more powerful.Remember the Pasuk we say 3 times a day in Ashrei? Karov Hashem…. Which means Hashem is close to all who call out directly to him to all who call out with truth wholeheartedly….
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO’S PRAYERS ARE ANSWERED DIRECTLY FROM HASHEM@ Avram in MD
Yes, in a perfect world there would be no meshichistim.
If you check out this: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2088561/violence-in-meron-police-lose-control-as-extremists-storm-kever-rashbi-police-shut-mountain-turn-buses-back-videos.html
You will see all these extreme extreme chareidim who don’t care about safety or law. (everybody ahs different opinions, but that’s not the point). You have these people also.
In a perfect world there would be none of these extreme chareidim.This may have been said on a different topic, but it’s to answer your question about anybody speaking up. I’ll tell you straight up – at all costs possible – we don’t want to cause even more machlokes and divide in luabvitch.
One thing I can tell you is that by causing more sinas chinam and bashing them does not help. I don’t either think a YWN CR Forum will help either, I think this was made just to give the coffee room a bit more life.
What we can do is daven for Moshiach as much as we can, so it will become clear to everybody who the real Moshaich is, and the world will be perfect, and also have a bit more ahavas yisrael.
(If you tell me, but Ts, it’s a real problem and it needs to be stopped by calling them kofrim, which I don’t think the gemara in sanhedrin says that people like them would be kofrim, their just stating a possiblity as a fact, and a fact that matters a lot, and we can’t say it’s true unless we know it is. I will tell you that it simply doesn’t help, the way to help is to daven.
@yungermanS
The way I understand the concept of going to a tzaddik or kivrei tzaddikim and asking for a brachah or that he daven for them is that they have a special connection to Hashem, and have many zechusim, and so when they daven it could bring upon extra & special blessings & yeshuos.“The way I understand the concept of going to a tzaddik or …”
Exactly. And that doesn’t shtim with your explanation of tzaddik government.
Extremists acting like animals and extremist teaching and spreading Kefira are not equateable
And stop with the sins chininam thing. Everytime someone has a legitimate question on something you do you start screaming sins chinam. It happens too often to be coincidence. If a yid sees something he learned is wrong his job is to ask. Stop calling that sina.
Baum
Your absolutely right and there’s nothing wrong with going to a Rebba or a kever for a Bracha but you going directly to the ruler Hashem for help in your time of need is way more powerful then going through a middleman or messenger.
Hashem loves hes special chosen nation klal yisroel and ia waiting at anytime to help anyone out in their time of need. The person just has to call out wholeheartedly directly to Hashem and then watch how fast his prayers are answered.
All of us have heard, read & seen tons of true stories of people who had their first child at 42 or had a sick child in critical condition, & then the doctor says i’m very sorry but your daughter has only 3 hours to live & then he comes back 2 hours later & says its really a miracle but your child is beginning to recover etc…. Why is it that they finally had a child & the child recovered? There could be tons of answers, but the most common answer Is a Pasuk we say 3 times a day in Davening. Hashem is close to all who call to him, to all who call out truthfully. (Tehillim 145)Because they cried out from their heart, they really meant what they were saying when they davened to H-shem to have a baby or for his daughter to recover etc…. there’s a reason we call Hashem, Avinu She’bashamayim (our father in heaven) Hashem loves us from a father to a son & is waiting to put his Shchina (presence) & his bais hamikdosh back in this world. If we really cried out for the Bais Hamikdosh from our heart with truth & show that we are missing it, then we wouldn’t still be in Golus today.@Syag Lchochma
What I was saying was that what the secular israelis think of frum, or chareidi, they think all of them are like those exremists. It’s called stereotyping. So too with lubavitch, just because you see some extremists doesn’t mean it’s everyone. You have to stop stereotyping.TS Baum,
Thanks for your response to my questions.
“You have these people also.
In a perfect world there would be none of these extreme chareidim.”This is the “they do the same things themselves” argument I mentioned above.
“I’ll tell you straight up – at all costs possible – we don’t want to cause even more machlokes and divide in luabvitch.”
There is a lot of space between silence and excommunication that can be utilized. Also, avoiding machlokes and divide is a noble goal, but is it truthfully the most important aim to be had “at all costs”? What if people started building golden statues of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L, and bowing down to them and offering them korbonos? That’s a ridiculous example, but as a real world example, what about the disruption the mishichists are causing to Chabad’s ability to disseminate the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings to the Jewish world? Would the Lubavitcher Rebbe have wanted this kind of distraction from his life’s mission?
“One thing I can tell you is that by causing more sinas chinam and bashing them does not help.”
I disagree that criticism automatically means sinas chinam. Machlokes for the sake of Torah is certainly not. But…
“I don’t either think a YWN CR Forum will help either, I think this was made just to give the coffee room a bit more life.”
I agree with you here.
“You have to stop stereotyping.”
I am not stereotyping. I am repeating back or responding to things being said here. When 25 chabadniks come on posting as chabadniks in these types of threads, and every single one starts calling out sinas chinam at nothing, it gets a bit coincidental. Except there are no coincidences. If I think Chassidim (non lubavitch) are wrong for davening after zman and start asking them about it and asking for proofs (i think it has happened here in the past), their response is usually to come back with some sources – either rebbes or textual. If I push and disagree they will probably tell me to have a nice life. Sinas chinam wouldn’t even be a thought.
But somehow, with lubavitchers that is the response here over and over again. And it’s baseless. And when a bunch of people over the globe throughout a decade all use the same invalid response, the assumption is that it was either implied, taught or fed to them as a group. It would be hard to coordinate an error on that level any other way.Syag – what you say is true, but the same is to be said of Modern orthodoxy. Criticism is almost always met with accusations of “sinat chinam”, when no hatred is espoused, and no baseless claims are being made.
It’s a defense mechanism when the person has no logical argument to make.
Christians do something similar when they say you just need to jave faith.
I will agree that chabad does it more than MO, but when pressed against the wall in flat out violations of halacha, it’s their go-to argument too.
Dear Yungerman,
Why are you so sure that we are worthy of having our prayers accepted? And a good argument can be made that prayer through the appropriate messenger is more powerful.
“Anytime …. Anyone”
Your opinion.
ChaZal had a different opinion. Hashem is available for the community. An individual has to seek Him, during The Ten Days.
Avira – strongly disagree. Just read GH and AAQs posts. The go to is to point out how lacking we are in our middos
Nomesorah
Hashem loves his children klal yisroel and is ready to answer 24-7 from anyone who calls out wholeheartedly and directly to Hashem.
Hashem is CLOSER and listens MORE when a person calls out during the 10 days of repentance.may we all call out to Hashem very soon with serious Teshuva so Hashem can send the Geula and Mashiach quickly in our days.
Do you want sources for what they claim about the rebbe that he is Moshiach?
They have sources. Like in the Rashi in the second to the last passuk of daniel, the Gemara Sanhedrin talks about his name possibly being Menachem. And there are more sources that explain how he could be Moshiach, the real thing they are wrong about it is that they know it as a fact when it’s not – we don’t know.It’s not kefira – it’s a lie. From a perspective, yes, it looks like kefira, who are they calling him Moshiach if we don’t know that he is? But you can’t say he is not ra’uy to be Moshiach, so the big mistake they are making is saying it as a fact when it’s not.
And I don’t believe their efforts to spread this mishugas are working.
People who aren’t mishichistim (unless they go to a mishiciste yeshiva) don’t suddenly believe in it.
Most of the people who come to chabad houses do not like them at all – that’s one of the reasons why they don’t go to 770 – they don’t like it a drop.Nomesorah – there are many chazals which advocate going to tzadikim to petition their prayers. Bava basra 116a says that when there’s a sick person in one’s house, he should go to a chacham and he will daven for you.
I can find the other sources if need be; this is just what comes to mind
@Avram in MD
אֵיזוֹ הִיא מַחְלֹקֶת שֶׁהוּא לְשֵׁם שָׁמַיִם?
זוֹ מַחְלֹקֶת הִלֵּל וְשַׁמַּאי.
Not what we’re doing here.btw, that was from Pirkei avos, Perek 5, Mishnah 17
So basically if non chabadniks ask you about what you do, and your answers don’t shtim so they question it, then that’s machlokes and sins chinam?
You are aware, I assume, there is the concept of moshiach ben david?
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