Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

I wish davening to a rebbe was something we can laugh about, but if you’re lubavitch, how many stories have you heard of people in trouble saying “rebbe help me”, or even just thinking it, and people are miraculously helped(according to the stories)?

I’ve heard this said a lot, and I’m not just talking about tzfas extremist branches who took over 770. They talk to their departed rebbe and think that he not only hears them, but grants their supplication.

As for your “teitches” of the disturbing expressions mentioned above – how come nobody else talks like that? Why when we wish for the goyim to see that Hashem runs the world, do we not say “and they will all see that it’s rav chaim kanievsky who runs the world”? Shouldn’t we want the world to see that Hashem runs the world? Isn’t that more important than spreading awareness about the idea that a tzadik’s will is in sync with Hashem’s? (The plain meaning of tzadim gozer)

Finding favor…. I’m sorry, i don’t see your explanation fitting into what was said at the shluchim conference. If the lubavitcher rebbe was still alive, then someone saying that they want to please the rebbe because the rebbe knows what Hashem wants, so if he approves, it’s a sign that Hashem approves – alright, that’s a bit awkward but not hashkofically invalid. But the rebbe had long been gone at this conference – 20 years, so the lower people can’t know what pleases the rebbe, so why say “may it be pleasing” – once you’re getting into such aspirations…just say “may it be pleasing before Hashem” and ze hu.

Rather, what he meant was that he believes in doing mitzvos because the rebbe said to do them. Ask any chabad kid why they do such and such; you’ll hear some say “because the rebbe said so”. I saw this in a chabad children’s magazine a few years back, when they asked random kids why kiruv is important. It’s out there, and it’s poison.

nom – I am not saying Avirah is right or wrong, but you seem to be grasping at straws. You defensives don’t all hold water.

Dear Avram,

Beliefs do matter -I think we agree on this part, that strength of faith and piety, is a very strong determination of one’s religiosity. I’m using the ‘beliefs are irrelevant’ line, for the opposite extreme. When determining what is within the ‘norms’ of Frum Yidden, I think it is about observance. As beliefs alone does not make a Yid. So long as all the practice is being practiced, there is room for more extreme thought systems. Although these systems may eventually convince them to stop practicing, the ideas themselves to not put them outside the ‘norms’. (And I would preemptively note, that observance is very strong in Chabad. Particularly, Chabad Yeshivos.) For example; davening to the Rebbe keeps being mentioned. Whatever it is or isn’t, they have not changed the standard liturgy. They still daven the same tefillos as the rest of us. Whereas Conservative, as well as some far left Orthodox, have reimagined the service to reflect their innovations.

Dear Avram,

“…you have embraced spiritual stagnation?”

No! I’m not Chabad at all. The way Chabad works, is that all fields of inquiry are open. Except for why Chabad is Chabad. Why Chabad does not have a track with zero kabalistic teachings, is a good question that will not get a good answer. For comparison; why Lakewood does not have a Mesivta for smart boys that will not be long-term learners, is also a good question that will not get an answer. Some things just are a certain way. These things only change as part of a large-scale shift.

They have changed the liturgy to include yechi, and some add ‘boreinu’, although they are a small minority.

As for the rest of your attitudes about emunah…avram has a good conversation with you about it; I’ll leave it to him, just had to throw that in

Dear Avira,

I realized that. But I’ve only seen yechi used roughly the same as na nach.

Thanks!

“But I’ve only seen yechi used roughly the same as na nach.”

total hogwash

Dear Avram,

On your main objection…………… First of all, the six constant mitzvos require thinking, so to my chiddush it’s a separate discussion. This is not to negate the point. On the contrary, it is the most obvious query. Just that it is a lengthy topic in it’s own right. Even with out my little ideas, it requires it’s own exposition on they are properly attained. For now, let’s continue on the other 607 mitzvos only. Second of all, I put myself in a theological bind. In order to put my defining point into focus, I pushed it beyond any reasonable parameters. Of course any sane human has to be thinking something to be observant. However, that may speak more to our humanness, than to spirituality. After all, do malachim ‘think’ when they observe His will?

My main point is this. Every Born-Observant Jew, starts of practicing before they understand any Torah system. Some may be aware that such a system exists, but what the system consists of – (as a first axiom I’ll use…) Serving Him by doing His Will (but there are deeper understandings that could, and should be used) – is elusive. This application of Judaism is available to all. Some people never get that there is a specific purpose to Torah. And they have a mush where others have a sense of purpose. Yet they are not one bit doubted as Yidden. If they preach their lack of knowledge, the proper response is ‘you need to learn more’ or something similar. But if they change their practice because it is all mush anyways, then they begin to lose their bona fides. if this is true, then it follows that observance can be achieved without any real idea of the Godhead.

Some people just do not get the nuance of grasping the Divine. I contend that some people are not just uncomfortable talking about Hashem, they really do not understand what the whole conversation is about. There is a lot more I can say about this personality trait, but it would get even more of topic. On one point I give a full concession. To keep the mitzvos on even the basic level, one has to fully accept all the mitzvos. Now, the query of the six constant mitzvos becomes unavoidable.

Dear Syag,

“Defense is weak.”

How so? We’re in the process of finding out just how weak my thinking is.

“that something isn’t true”

Typo? Because I think it is true. I also think I could be wrong.

“if he thinks it’s wrong”

I would like to know why he thinks that way.

“it’s not quite so simple”

It’s not simple at all.

“because they are different”

Yes. But cutting out the vibes may lead to a clearer conversation.

” If there wasn’t legitimacy on at least some level it would not hold up thru so many leaders consistently thru so many years.”

I’m confused what you are referring to with this sentence.

” You are just being simplistic and nonchalant because you find that comfortable and have already painted the rest of the religious world to be overdramatic,”

I’m being too simplistic. Agreed. It works. First let’s find out how deep we disagree. There is always time for apologetics later.
Nonchalant? I thought I was getting too heated. I deleted some posts instead of submitting them.
I’m comfortable with thinking things through. I do not use my brain cells for matters of appearance or populism.
The world – not just the religious world is overdramatic to me. That’s okay. I don’t have the drive to run the whole world.

Dear Syag,

I prefer to leave my personal devotion to my religion off the internet. It just seems fake to me, when people publish how frum they are.

Also, I have no problem being around the irreligious. Or the ultra-religious. My own attitudes to religion, should not concern anyone. Including yourself.

All in all, I’m sorry you feel like you had to say something.

Dear Syag,

[I find that attitudes and spiritual well being do not correlate. I’ve seen boys who do not keep shabbos, wear tzitzis through thick and thin. I’ve seen all kinds of wayward Yidden davening for hours. I know of major kollel donors that do not believe in the power of learning Torah. And I have met many, many Yidden that are both cynical and committed.]

I’m not sensitive to criticisms on my values. Don’t leave me guessing. Just be blunt.

I didn’t mean they are concerning me, I meant they are of concern to me, in response to you saying they should not concern anyone

I said my attitudes are not concerning. [Alert: Possible Bias] I post in a dry manner. I see no reason in forcing my feelings on others. My experiences, opinions, and theories, are complicated enough.

I know shuls which say yechi after aleinu. I also know individual lubavitchers who have told me that they do so on their own if davening in a shul which does not say it

Dear Avira,

Have you seen it yourself or not? Even if it is as you say, it is still not a break with our tradition. It is controversial only because of it’s implications. Just adding after davening is not controversial.

“Adding something after davening is very controversial”

Get real. There have been dozens of additions and almost none of them stick. Because the people won’t stick around an extra minute.

You saw it in one shul. What was it like? Standing at attention? Singing? Mumbling?

I think we also need to address the “boreinu” aspects.
The first time I heard about it was in 2005, when a full page ad in an Israeli paper showed the rebbe with the words “The rebbe melech hamoshiach is melech malchei hamelachim hkbh mamash” (afar l’pumei)

I was shocked by that, but I could assume that maybe it was just a crazy person who put the ad out.

Then I had a friend who told me about the chabad yeshiva in tzfas. he told me he visited and saw that on their paroches, where they have “yechi” instead of writing “adoneinu MOREINU” they have “Boreinu”.
I said he must have seen wrong- nobody could believe that!

But then when I went to tzfas, I saw sefarim in some shuls with the “boreinu” version stamped in it.
And I saw dozens of boys- and a few bachurim and men- with the “boreinu” version on their kippah.

Besides the issue of them being outright kefira, I was shocked to see advertisements for various chabad shuls in Israel announcing that some of the rebbeim from tzfas would be speaking at various events.

Even if the Tzfas group is very small, the fact that the greater Chabad groups haven’t pushed back and completely isolated them is very scary.

They haven’t pushed back because the differences between tzfas and the rest isn’t very large. They mostly pray to, and ascribe godly characteristics to him. They all believe in atzmus ideology because the rebbe said so. There’s a limit to how much they can disagree, while I will admit that many do not ascribe actual divinity, or they are not in the “inner circle” (i.e., they’re BTs, gerim, or came from somewhere else) and are unaware of these ideas.

Nomesorah; at this point you’ve reduced your argument to “how much is it” – a little, a whisper, or a standing ovation – what’s the difference? There’s an alien monstrosity posing as yiddishkeit, no matter how enthused the reciters of that garbage are or not.

For the record, in the states it seems they say it lowly to themselves, which of course is fine in your world where you believe that we shouldn’t care what people believe as long as they wear fabric on their head, put leather boxes on their arms, and eat food with funny symbols on it.

As the kids say, you seem very “triggered” for someone who professes not to care what others believe. Why then do you care what i believe about chabad?

Eleh mai, it’s beliefs that bother you that you’re concerned with, not ikarei emunah which you regard dispassionately and theoretically.

Perhaps you live with a theoretical conception of Hashem and never try to have a relationship with him; if you did, you might find that saying bad things about Him actually bothers you, no matter who’s saying it or why

I’ve always seen yechi as a cultural thing. Same as na-nach. Do you get the comparison?

I’m not at all talking about what they think. I’m talking about how they say whatever they are saying.

“the yeshivos” were a minority only in pre war Europe when everyone decided it didn’t matter if you thought like a goy as long as you did the aforementioned mitzvos, but soon deteriorated to abandoning those empty actions altogether.

The shift after MO showed its lack of viability was in the 90s, 2000s… it’s no longer a minority of frum people in eretz yisroel, and in America, the yeshiva has a lot more influence than New York times darshening MO pulpit rabbis who can barely fill their pews.

Lol!

But, you really have no idea about the mesorah of the non orthodox. They stop observing long before they stopped believing. It’s hard to differentiate the fringe Orthodox and the not based on beliefs. But when it comes to observance there usually is a big drop off.

I’m trying to tell you, that the yeshiva outlook of yesteryear is still not popular today. Even though the yeshiva community has grown substantially, the purity of it’s ideas is still not widespread. The majority of the yeshiva literate, get more of their outlook from the frum media, than from a bona fide Rosh Yeshiva.

Most of the topics on these pages that have a yeshivish versus from outlook to them, have nothing in common with what a Rosh Yeshiva would actually say.

You keep posting the intent. I’m comparing the way it is ritualized to na-nach.

TS, it’s not just “seforim”, kol haposel is a chazal (kidushin 70a).

By your logic, people who are critical of baal zvuv actually believe in it. If we take it that way, then I’m actually a closet elohist? If i see avodah Zara, well, it’s there, i don’t want to see it, but i can’t pretend i don’t either.

I’ll get to the intent later. My point is that from what I’ve seen it is more like wearing a hat than wearing a cross. It’s a slogan. Not a declaration. It does not belong in davening at all.