Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

I stand by my connection that this kefirah is the product of an attempted treatment of OCD, mixed up chabad education, and a topping of know-it-all, smarter-than-thou egotism.

n0mesorah,

“God fearing key is not so accurate. Fear of God takes a Jo’s of goods work for most of us. I mean continued to keeping the mitzvtos (within the Jewish community).”

I could not decipher what you were trying to say in this sentence, can you rephrase it? Also, if you are correct, than it’s wrong to see in sefarim Jews referred to as “yirei Shamayim” or “baalei nefesh”, etc. Shouldn’t those terms be eschewed in favor of “shomrei mitzvos” only, if that’s the ikar?

“The idea necessary for mitzvos is a mitzaveh -commander. Not boray – creator. You have a big swing there between a mitzvah for it’s own sake and a good luck charm. There is a lot in between.”

People do things for a reason, and if someone has no concept of Hashem, their “committment” comes from somewhere else. Sports fandom was a silly example, but is it less silly at the end of the day than an athiest doing “mitzvos” he thinks are worthless because of communal pressure, or a pushover resentfully doing them just to please grandparents, or from Holocaust guilt, or whatever other reasons that make a “committed Jew”in your mind?

Re: your distinction between Hashem as the Borei Olam and the Ribono Shel Olam – if someone believes that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and the Xian man-god commands us to do the mitzvos… so long as he puts on tefillin every day, takes arba minim, and avoids melachos on Shabbos, he’s doing nothing wrong before Hashem in your mind and is even a “committed Jew”?

Also, you have ignored my point that one who does not know or believe in Hashem cannot fulfill any of the mitzvos properly, especially ones that deal directly with how we are supposed to feel and know about Hashem, such as loving Hashem, fearing Hashem, remembering the Exodus, etc.

>>>If you think you understand the chassidishe velt because you learned a little chassidishe seforim and went to Torah Vodaas then that might be the reason you think Chabad is not rooted in precedent from Chassidishe thought.

Don’t give me this “you don’t understand” apologetics. The leader of the Chabad movement himself when he introduced the “atzmius” concept explicitly said that it isn’t something he saw in any Chassidishe Seforim.

And say you are right that I don’t understand it. Do you think I’m the only one who doesn’t? Do you think no one in Chabad takes it even more literally than I do? I’ve heard plenty of chabad educators give speeches about how we need to take the “rebbe” for what he says. I’ve never seen any chabad educator speaking to a Chabad crowd emphasize that עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף is not to be understood the way it sounds and that it would be a terrible aveira to do so.

“even the nost far out atheist can be a committed jew”

“My entire post was belief in mitzvos! How did you miss that?!?

That’s how i “missed” it. You said you can be a committed jew, a “basic” jew, while being an atheist, a denier of the creator and giver of the mitzvos that he professes to do.

Dear Avram,

I’m not advocating this as the ikar. I’m saying this is the basic idea. As in what a person who did not find his purpose in life, but is still interested in remaining a Jew.

Many terms can be used for Jews. Shomrei mitzvos is a common term. Balei nefesh is a really high level.

I doubt anyone’s commitment comes only from their awareness of Hashem. Bilam had a strong awareness of Hashem and moving else. So he was only absorbed in himself.

A committed Jew is one that maintains his Judaism as his own identity. I think your examples will also qualify as ‘a good Jew’. Your underselling just how many obligations the Torah puts on us.

The person with the personal beliefs that you outlined is rather stupid. That he still maintains all the mitzvos, is very special in the eyes of Hashem. What do you expect of such a person?

On your last paragraph, it depends what level you mean. A Jew with little insight into the divine, is limited in their spiritual growth. This is so obvious, it is almost redundant. But the basic level is there for him. A fully practicing atheist can say kiddush and kaddish for us. One is yotzei all the mitzvos that are designed for our awareness even if he is unaware of what they mean. Teffillin. Succah. Shabbos. Yom Tov. Tzitzis. Matzo. Marror. Etc.

The six constant mitzvos is a long topic. And I’m not changing anything. It’s the same idea for the gaddol hador as it is for the simpleton. The outcome is different. But the output is universal.

I posted that piece to clarify why all of chabad is within the parameters of normative Judaism, as much as any other group. It was never intended as the ideal.

Dear Avira,

The six mitzvos is a different discussion. One that fails every time we try on these welcoming pages. It’s a lifelong goal. And the sad fact is that most yidden come nowhere close. That is the first premise of the chovas halevavos. The miselas yisharim States that true yirah evades most of the people because they do not know what it is.

Dear Avirah,

Why can’t an atheist believe in the mitzvos? One can have beliefs and still not claim to have all the answers. Is that last sentence the center of our dispute? An atheist will think of the commander as a fact. Not a being. It could be the same source as the commander of the laws of nature.

An atheist cannot believe in a commander, unless you mean he things that natural law mandates that he wear tefilin, which is the same as saying that the earth god or the sun god commands him to

An atheist denies gods, not existence.

Doing commands because your father commands you, are commands.

The thread is full of points that you had no answer for.

Where do chazal mention that it is our obligation to tear apart Judaism by learning up people’s personal devotions?

n0mesorah,

” I’m not advocating this as the ikar. I’m saying this is the basic idea.”

Ok, so this seems like a big change from your initial stance, which ridiculed any debate about beliefs because they were irrelevant to Yiddishkeit. So now you’re holding that beliefs are relevant, but a lack of them is still within what you see as the “baseline” of normative Judaism. I vehemently disagree, but before we go on that merry-go-round again, given your new position that beliefs do matter inasmuch as they raise your level of Yiddishkeit – I don’t understand your point in this thread. Your initial argument seemed to advocate for people to leave Chabad alone, because who cares what they believe as long as they do mitzvos, as beliefs are irrelevant to Judaism, and it’s silly to quibble about beliefs since reality is beyond our comprehension anyway. Now, however, you seem to imply that beliefs can indeed raise your level. Fine. And maybe some are not ready to jump to higher levels, and pushing or berating them for it may do more harm than good. Ok, I can agree with that. But Chabad claims that their derech is the superior form of Judaism, and only through Chabad can you reach the absolute highest levels. They put this into action via missionary work, and they express considerable hostility towards Jews who disagree with their derech (the “snags”). The similarity between these attitudes and those of early Christianity is probably why there is so much consternation – Christianity after all resulted in 2000 years of torment for Jews. But to lay out my question simply: if beliefs do matter for your level, and a group claims to offer the highest level… should their claims not be checked into on behalf of those who want to climb higher?

“I doubt anyone’s commitment comes only from their awareness of Hashem. Bilam had a strong awareness of Hashem and moving else. So he was only absorbed in himself.”

I didn’t say that awareness alone was sufficient. We have mitzvos to love and fear Hashem, and a cursory reading of Chumash reveals the importance of faith in Hashem.

“A committed Jew is one that maintains his Judaism as his own identity.”

But what is Judaism if divorced from Hashem?

“The person with the personal beliefs that you outlined is rather stupid. That he still maintains all the mitzvos, is very special in the eyes of Hashem. What do you expect of such a person?”

There’s stupid and wrong, and stupid and right. Should we condemn the stupid to wrongness?

“A Jew with little insight into the divine, is limited in their spiritual growth. This is so obvious, it is almost redundant.”

On the contrary, it is so wrong, I almost don’t know where to begin. No, a simple person isn’t going to delve into esoteric kabbalistic concepts, but a simple and true faith can shake the heavens.

“A fully practicing atheist can say kiddush and kaddish for us.”

I don’t think so. If an athiest writes a perfect sefer Torah, we have to burn it. And I don’t think we can say amein to their brachos.

“I posted that piece to clarify why all of chabad is within the parameters of normative Judaism, as much as any other group. It was never intended as the ideal.”

But they claim the mantle if the ideal, hence the scrutiny.

NOMESORAh– indeed!! If you do not think that Christianity is avodah zorah, then you have gone so far off that there is nothing to discuss with you anymore.

Why do chazal care about the (unfortunately common) refrain of people who aren’t machshiv learning, saying “what do those rabbis benefit us? They learn for themselves” chazal say that they are apikorsim because learning benefits the world, im lo brisi, chukos.shomayim vearetz lo samti

Dear Avira,

I do not recall such a Rambam. Please can you tell me where I can read it myself?

Dear Avram,

“Devarim 13” Nothing there.

I appreciated your long post. I read before Shabbos and will have to read it again before I respond.

Dear Avira,

I read it. Thanks! (By worse, I took it as by denying more of the essence of truth more of the true form is being distorted.) I have no dispute with how you posted it.

Regarding the avirah’s point (I am sorry I stopped following that part of the debate): NoMesorah, are you even an Orthodox Jew? Your views are way,way off.

Nomesorah has yet to provide one source to this supposed Torah view that beliefs aren’t important or integral, and that one can be a good jew if he denies Hashem.

Yserb; as was pointed out, the question of christianity was one of if shituf applies to goyim, or not. No one ever said it’s not shituf or that it’s compatible with monotheism. As was also pointed out, everyone agrees it is yehereg velo yaavor for a jew. Christian theology since the council of nicea has always held of the trinity. It was only recently that a small group called Unitarian Christianity started, where they believe yushke was a prophet, but not in any way divine. Christians don’t have much uniformity, but the trinity is one area(unfortunately) that they all agree to. Far less than 1% of all christians are unitarians.

Dear Smerel,

I have been in Chabad shuls and yeshivos all along the East Coast. That includes many all nighters. We’ve had many great conversations, because so little is out of bounds for Chabad. They start off guarded, because they do not like getting attacked. The group that really likes theological arguments, are yeshivaleit. The fact of the matter is that they have the same perception of Hashem as everyone else. Which should be obvious. Because even the most exacting thinker can’t understand God better than you me. The human brain can only fathom an awareness of Him. Nothing more. Creator, Designator, Law giver, Judge, Manager,Owner, etc, these are terms that discuss what He inacts and impacts. Not what the Essence of God is.

What Chabad does excell in, is teaching how Hashem’s world works. They are much clearer and better prepared to discuss these ideas. What they lack, is how these very teachings apply to everyone and everything beyond those who are studying them. Basically, Chabad’s scholastic approach, only focuses on what matters to them. According to what they think is their life’s mission. They do not think much of what everyone else should be doing. But everyone else seems to have a lot to say about what Chabad should or should not be doing.

Dear Avira,

I did not mean theology exactly. I meant proper hashkafa.

They do not apply God-like existence to the Rebbe. They say their Rebbe does the same ‘activities’ as God. Every Jewish group says that about their leaders, as they well should. The difference is Chabad teaches what it means to say such things.

Dear Syag,

“proselytizing”

Good Point.

“proselytizing frum people”

It’s newbies who are clueless. Or old hands who are clueless. None of the staff in any of the T”T that I went too, cared about my observance etc.

“representing Judaism to a lot of people in very public ways”

This irks me too. Now what is there to say or fix?

“I disagree”

I’m not asking what makes them care. My question is, what makes them think that it is something to do with if they are heretics or not. As if some haskafa battle will reform Chabad.

““public” walk away thinking”

These things are beyond human control. I’m not all-powerful. You may be, but at least you will not admit to anything like that on these pages.

In case anyone is interested in lots of information on this, the Org site “Identifying Chabad”, may be of interest.

Dear Avram,

I’ve read your long post (#2083987) numerous times, and I’m not convinced that I can place your debate. My position did not change. As long as observance is a given, it is of little consequence to the Torah way of life what theories are prominent in a given group. I suspect that if we compare groups we will find that the best of each are both similar and few in number. What’s your argument? Should we tell Chabad that their teachings must be wrong, because outside of Chabad they do not preach the same? Chabad is wrong because nobody else is Chabad? Maybe the hostility is mutual and therefore artificial. The Baal Hatanya’s opponents put him in jail. Nobody has apologized yet, so maybe all the spite is justified. You compare Chabad to Early Christianity. Nobody knows what Christianity was like in it’s early days.

“But to lay out my question simply: if beliefs do matter for your level, and a group claims to offer the highest level… should their claims not be checked into on behalf of those who want to climb higher?”

I hear the question. But it’s not for me to answer. Chabad’s problem. Every group is leaving out something.

“”“I DOUBT ANYONE’S COMMITMENT COMES ONLY FROM THEIR AWARENESS OF HASHEM. BILAM HAD A STRONG AWARENESS OF HASHEM AND NOTHING ELSE. SO HE WAS ONLY ABSORBED IN HIMSELF.”

I didn’t say that awareness alone was sufficient. We have mitzvos to love and fear Hashem, and a cursory reading of Chumash reveals the importance of faith in Hashem.”

So we agree on this.

TS, it’s mostly accurate; a drop over the top based on my experiences with chabad, but only just

n0mesorah,

“My position did not change. As long as observance is a given, it is of little consequence to the Torah way of life what theories are prominent in a given group.”

I provided my interpretations of how I understood your initial position (beliefs are irrelevant) and subsequent position (beliefs do matter – they can raise your level). If you hold that your position did not change, than one of my interpretations is incorrect. Which one is it?

My discussion with you is largely a tangent off of this thread, based on what you wrote:

“When a Yid does a mitzvah because he is a comitted Jew, that is the desired outcome of creation. This is even if the Jew has no concept of a creator or any idea of the god-head.”

My major objection to this is that having a concept of a creator and Hashem as our G-d, and rejecting idolatry are themselves mitzvos – so absent these beliefs or in the presence of idolatrous beliefs, one is not fulfilling the desired outcome of creation. I pushed back hard on this, and you then (seemed to) acknowledge that beliefs matter, but more as a “level” thing than a fundamental mitzvah. This did not answer my main objection, but I put that objection aside temporarily to ask a secondary question – if beliefs indeed affect your “level”, then is it legitimate to question or investigate beliefs whose adherents claim are the highest of the high levels? I went on that tangent because this seemed like an inconsistency in your own stance. But unless I’m misunderstanding you, we still disagree on whether a basic belief that there is One G-d Who we cannot perceive or make an image of, Who created and rules the universe, Who took us out of Egypt, and Who commanded us to do the mitzvos, is in itself a mitzvah and necessary to fulfill the other mitzvos.

“I hear the question. But it’s not for me to answer.”

Why is it not for you to answer, unless you have embraced spiritual stagnation?

“Should we tell Chabad that their teachings must be wrong, because outside of Chabad they do not preach the same? Chabad is wrong because nobody else is Chabad?”

Not sure I like how you worded it (particularly the wrong because nobody else is line), but in essence, yes. Kol Yisroel arevim ze bazeh – we are one nation, one people, and we are responsible for one another. So why can’t questions be asked and answers given, without hostility and hatred?