Should we try to encourage Mashichists and Elokists to return to the fold?

Define what a “Mashicist” is.

How is that different than a “Elokist”? How many Elokists are there (5, 10, 1,000)?

What percentage of Lubavitchers are NOT either of those two categories?

Sure after we encourage all bored trolls to return bais medrash

Why does it bother you so much that people think differently? It’s not any worse than believing in flat earth or spaghetti monsters.

Nome, does Holocaust denial bother you? If so, is denying the Holocaust a worse evil than denying Hashem?

What about people’s opinions of…slavery, racism, etc? Does it bother you? Why does it bother you and not torah issues – is it perhaps because *let people think what they want* only applies to issues which you’re dispassionate about?

No mesorah:
That might be, for starters, because their influence is worldwide and people who eat meat slaughtered by them (by the neo-Christians, not by the “Meshichists”) would be eating neveila.

Dear Avira,

I would love to help you. How did you get so mixed up? Flat earth is not a Torah issue. It’s a matter of truth. Same with the holocaust. Many people are uneducated and simply do not know any better. You seem to be confusing me with some archetype from your past. I have nothing in common with them. It’s fine with me whenever people think. Whether they want to or not. It disturbs me when people speak on behalf of the group, and only represent the margins. Though I’m used to it.

Katan: Well, having eaten at probably 25+ Chabad houses on 4 continents over the past 25 years, I’ve developed a taste for neveila.
P.S. Every time I think we’ve graduated beyond these childish “bash Chabad” threads, a new one springs up. Sort of a chassidish/Litvish whackamole’

Nome; oy. You said it doesn’t bother you when someone has twisted views. You applied that mode of thinking to those who believe that their rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body. You say that it shouldn’t bother us. Why should we care what others think?

To that i answered that i bet you’re not so dispassionate when faced with false opinions or false statements of fact regarding issues that you personally care about.

I then drove home the point that the common denominator is that you and those like you don’t care what someone else believes or says….until it’s an issue that you care about.

Therfore, you must not care much about kefirah or other torah matters which shoulf spur one to disgust.

So let’s ask this again – does Holocaust denial bother you? If not, does condoning mass genocide bother you? If yes, why does it bother you but kefirah does not? Is it not as important or deserving of repugnance?

This post is very on the point, and it needs to be discussed seriously and not ridiculed by leitzonim.
Unfortunately the problem is too common [without getting involved in numbers and percentages] and it involves core beliefs of Judaism.

We should be deeply caring as they are are brethren, our flesh and our soul. Indeed the right formula is needed to reach out in a caring and effective manner, to save these wonderful Yidden.

It is true that in Chabad they have lifted their leader almost to the point of deification R’L but they aren’t going to listen to any outside group who attempts to set them straight . There are few groups in the frum world who are as willing to ignore the vehement opposition of other groups as Chabad. BUT their result should be a lesson to all of us that you should not just ignore vehement opposition from Talmedey Chachomim from other groups

>>>Please name one chabad rabbi (who does not belong in a mental rehab) who chas vshalom says that the Rebbe is Hashem.

They don’t say that the Rebbe is Hashem but they talk about him as if he were.

And yes some of them refer to him as עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף R’L Something the rebbe himself made up. Some say that they don’t mean it literally . Others not so much.

There are very few issues that I want to be proven wrong and made a fool out of myself for saying like this one

Dear Point,

If you really care, then you differentiate between what people say and what they really mean. Actions speak louder than words here too.

Besides for a true/false question, there is also a ‘he has no idea what he is saying’ option. Which negates the whole thread. If they do not know the difference, than they are saying the same thing as the simpletons in every Jewish community. They are not expected to know better.

Yes. And that is not purely because of matters of belief. It also could be indicative of really simplistic thinking. And such people are not reliable, no matter what their views are.

What it sounds like, is that everyone is simple minded neanderthals, and that you’re god’s gift to humanity – a being of pure reason who is a shining beacon amid a sea of uneducated and unintelligent subhumans.

Read your own statements again; the arrogance is hard to describe. Who if not people in yeshiva understand gemara? Just you? Just academics who study it the way they do Shakespeare?

When you have to fall back on misquotes, and misrepresentations to bash a community, you know you are not in good company.

Dear Avirah,

You misunderstand me again! Many in yeshiva understand the gemara! Probably more than everywhere else combined. But because of this, they give little thought to how the gemara came to be. And they give it much weight in some places. And to little in others.

I really think that fighting over proper belief is simple minded. Do you disagree?

I do not consider myself blessed with clarity or pure reason. I was blessed with being born into the yeshiva world in a real sense that is not common to even by the most committed kolleliet. And I have had access to many great talmedei chachamim. Including pre-war Yidden. My nomadic existence has given me the abilities to test which thought experiments only works within the yeshiva. And which ones are more universal.

It should not be hard to describe arrogance. Don’t worry about how I’ll take it.

Yes we should. But it’s a very difficult thing to do. Many Mashichists and Elokists (and by here, I’m using the definition of a person who believes the following: “Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson is or can be Moshiach and he can hear and fulfill our teffilos so we pray to him”) are very set in their ways and surrounded by many people who look like Erliche Yidden and are similarly convinced that this is how to follow Hashem’s Torah.

I think the best we can do is be open and inviting to Chabadskers and show them how we daven (with only Hashem in mind) how we learn (from many Rishonim and Acharonim) how we listen to Da’as Torah (not every cough or sneeze from a Rov is something that needs to be written down and treated like Torahs Moshe m’Sinai C”V) and how most of the frum and even Chassidish world just lives and believes very differently than they are used to.

N0mesorah, you are trying to bend yourself over backwards just to justify Chabad. Why did you decide that none of them mean it about the Rebbe? And your explanation of the Rabbi Belsky psak is simply not true.

I heard a Shiur on this topic (not specifically about Chabad). He explained Yiddishkeit is different than Xtianity in that Yiddishkeit is very low on beliefs and very high on action. While Xtianity is the opposite. There was a time when if the church said yoshka had brown hair and a xtian said he had blond hair they could be killed. Which to Jews makes no sense. We judge a person or group by whether they keep Torah and Mitzvahs. There are exceptions for example a Jew is publicly a Jew for Yoshka. But with the Chabad leadership denying these concepts and Chabad Jews being observant and have vague explanations it’s a non issue. I asked one major Chabadnik and he explained of course the Rebbe died but a Rebbe lives on through his students. Did he really believe that? I don’t know. But it’s not my job to investigate or make assumptions about someone who keeps Torah and mitzvahs.

Kuv, what you heard is haskalah-based orthopraxy, where your actions count more than your beliefs.

Tzadik beemunaso yichyeh; hen yiras Hashem for starters. The Torah s actions/mitzvos are meant letzaref es habros, chazal say. The zohar says that the mitzvos are “aitzos” to become close to Hashem. The gra writes that fixing one’s middos is tachlis hachaim.

Doing an aveirah lands a person in gehinnom. Having hererical ideas makes him lose olam haba. Middos are also stuck with the person the way they were when he died.

The early rishonim spent most of their seforim on hashkofa.

I can go on and on.

Short version; the shiur rabbi speaker person is puppeting maskilim who wanted to keep mitzvos without penimius or an emphasis on emunah.

Avira, the speaker was making a point worth thinking into. Perhaps it was too broadly stated, or quoted. Like every statement, if you don’t preface it with 10 introductions about exceptions and what you don’t mean, you’ll have people pointing out how wrong you are because of the areas in which your point doesn’t apply.

Get real. Listen to the actual point, and apply as fit. Especially, when the point is not the topic being discussed.

n0mesorah,

“I really think that fighting over proper belief is simple minded. Do you disagree?”

I sense a bit of Jonathan Swift in your responses. So yes, who cares on which side we open our eggs. However, if not for a belief in Hashem, that He created the world and that He is actively guiding the world and sees us and what we do, why do the mitzvos at all? I have non-frum relatives who R”L do not believe that the mitzvos are important. And I can’t let them cook unsupervised in my kitchen. Not because they don’t respect the mitzvos for my sake. On the contrary, they are very respectful, they check hechsherim, they ask which are milchig and which are fleishig keilim, etc. So why not? Because kashrus accidents invariably occur, and because I believe in Hashem and that the mitzvos are actually vitally important, I want to know about the kashrus accident, even if it means a big inconvenience, loss of the food, or even losing the keilim. But my relatives don’t think that kashrus is such a big deal, and being nice, don’t want to cause me “unnecessary” stress or inconvenience. After all, the Torah says not to distress other people, right? So they will likely not mention the accident at all. No harm, no foul.

Halevi, chelek eloka mimaal is discussed a lot in seforim. That statement does not say “the world will see that it’s the rebbe who runs the world”. You don’t need to be introduced with preconceived notions to see why that’s out of bounds. It’s not jumping to conclusions or taking it out of context. There’s no context for that belief.

Similarly, at the council of shluchim, one of the organizers began with a vehi noam, that “the rebbe should look down and we should find favor before him”

They pray to him. Many, many do; even non-meshichisten. Nobody ever prayed to the arizal, maggid, baal hatanya, ledushas levi, or anyone else. It’s avodah zara. Period.